This build was originally shown to me by my longtime RL friend NideoVinja. He mostly abandoned it to go abuse bads with Pauper Commander lists and other things instead so I took over playing with it. Nath is very interesting to play. Almost the entire deck is part of one big combo engine and it is designed for competitive play to be the second combo deck at the table to try to win. The deck is very difficult to play optimally and the path to victory is rarely as simple as "assemble X and Y, win."
So, why Nath? Well, we wanted to play Green/Black. The other generals, quite frankly range from terrible to marginally better than cancer. I was really hoping the Commander precons would give me something better to work with but for some reason they skipped printing a playable GB Legend. Nath does a great job pretending to be disruption, pretending to generate tokens and often has really great synergy with Priest of Titania, Joraga Treespeaker and Elvish Archdruid.
Changes I would make right now, there is always a list of cards that might end up in the deck. Currently the lists look like this:
The deck functions perfectly fine as is, but this is also relatively competitive deck so it will most likely wreck anything that isn't top tier if you know how to use it. Nath can even perform moderately well against anything that isn't a faster combo deck (and sometimes you can accel a Mind Twist or Terastodon and put yourself far enough ahead to win). Right now it's about halfway between 1v1 and multiplayer but the focus is more on multiplayer.
Could it be drastically improved? Sure. I could change my general to Damia and add blue. However one of my favorite points with this deck that it feels like I am playing blue without actually playing blue. As it stands right now, it is interesting, resilient and most importantly fun to play, but far from top tier. I will gladly justify any card choices I have made because every card in the deck is there for a reason (in some cases it might not be a GOOD reason).
This deck is not for you if:
You don't like the "win now" strategy.
You dislike complex card interactions.
You have trouble analyzing board states and tutoring for the right cards (I have made mistakes with this often enough so don't feel like I am being an elitist).
You play with a group that thinks turn 7 or 8 is "early game" and they brag about their amazingly good EDH^H^H^H "Commander" decks that can goldfish a win somewhere around turn 10.
Disclaimer: Some of the cards are in here because I have really awesome versions of them. I will include what is cool about each version of the card as it is in the decklist so you will see what I mean. Red lettering designates foil.
General:
00 Nath of the Gilt Leaf
Mana Acceleration:
01 Arbor Elf <-- Often untaps Bayou/Overgrown Tomb, has actually untapped Dryad Arbor to chump block something once.
02 Birds of Paradise (Japanese Box Promo)
03 Chrome Mox (Grand Prix)
04 Coalition Relic (Japanese Phyrexia VS Coalition DD)
05 Eladmri's Vineyard (Korean)
06 Earthcraft (German) <-- Just incredible. Anything that generates tokens makes this card absurd. Especially when the CMC of the generator is less than or equal to the number of creatures generated. Extra silly combined with Phyrexian Altar and/or Skullclamp/Fecundity.
07 Elves of Deep Shadow (FNM)
08 Elvish Archdruid (Japanese)
09 Golgari Signet
10 Joraga Treespeaker <-- awkwardly enough, sometimes leveling this guy to 5 with a Concordant Crossroads in play generates a massive amount of mana.
11 Llanowar Elves (Beta)
12 Magus of the Vineyard
13 Mana Crypt (Spanish WB)
14 Mox Diamond (FtV)
15 Priest of Titania (FNM)
16 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary (Altered to "Brofellos")
17 Sakura Tribe-Elder (CHK, NOT FNM)
18 Sol Ring (Beta)
Tutor Effects:
19 Beseech the Queen
20 Chord of Calling
21 Crop Rotation <-- Just nuts. If you can make green mana you should be playing this card. Especially if you can also make black mana. Crop Rotation -> Bojuka Bog is just brutal against the right deck at the right time.
22 Demonic Tutor (Alpha)
23 Diabolic Intent (Chinese)
24 Diabolic Tutor (Chinese)
25 Fierce Empath
26 Green Sun's Zenith (Japanese)
27 Grim Tutor
28 Imperial Seal (Japanese)
29 Insidious Dreams
30 Natural Order (Judge) <-- This into Terastodon on turn 2 or 3 is the best way to crush someone in a 1v1 game. Usually by the time they recover you're so far ahead it doesn't matter anymore.
31 Primeval Titan (M11)
32 Shred Memory <-- transmute cards are underused in EDH.
33 Sylvan Tutor (Japanese)
34 Tooth and Nail
35 Vampiric Tutor (Judge)
36 Weird Harvest (ONS) <-- Sadistic Hypnotist is a great card to grab with this if you're casting it for 3 or 4 since you don't have to reveal until everyone is done finding guys and with Nath in play, you're the only one that gets to keep them.
37 Worldly Tutor (Japanese MG)
Combo Mana:
44 Cadaverous Bloom (French)
45 Skirge Familiar (Korean) <-- It's like a slightly worse Cadaverous Bloom that you can get via T&N or Chord of Calling. Awesome! (btw, it is legit to T&N for this and a Regal Force, draw a bunch of cards and discard the bad ones to power your next move).
46 Phyrexian Altar <-- This card turns massive tokens into massive mana that usually turns into massive tokens. Especially fun with X/>1's and Skullclamp.
Discard:
47 Mind Twist (Alpha)
48 Sadistic Hypnotist <-- Just absurd. This with Nath = No one gets a hand while it's your turn.
Removal:
49 Beast Within
50 Emerald Charm (Korean) <-- All around amazing. Another criminally underused card.
51 Terastodon (Japanese)
52 Woodfall Primus <-- I think I eventually took the bad Melira combo out, but it's still kinda funny I guess. In a mostly bad way.
Token Generation:
53 Avenger of Zendikar <-- mass tokens. When combined with Earthcraft/Altar does a REALLY sweet Great Whale impersonation.
54 Deranged Hermit (Judge) <-- see Avenger. The impersonation isn't as good (think Charlie Chaplin getting 3rd at a Charlie Chaplin impersonation contest) but does it have to be?
55 Plague of Vermin <-- Game ender. Everytime it has been worth it to cast this card I have immediately won. If you play it and it will help, go all the way.
56 Saproling Burst <-- nets you 1 mana when combined with either Altar OR Earthcraft and 7 with both.
57 Saproling Symbiosis <-- often generates more tokens than what you paid for. A good rule to follow in this deck.
58 Squirrel Nest <-- Obligatory.
59 Spontaneous Generation <-- re: Saproling Symbiosis
Big Finisher:
60 Exsanguinate
Misc:
61 Concordant Crossroads (Legends)
62 Eternal Witness (Fifth Dawn)
63 Melira, Sylvok Outcast (Japanese) <-- really only in the deck because I have a Japanese foil and a foil Woodfall Primus.
Non-Basics:
64 Bayou
65 Bloodstained Mire (Judge)
66 Bojuka Bog
67 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
68 City of Brass (JSS)
69 Command Tower (Japanese)
70 Deserted Temple
71 Dryad Arbor
72 Gaea's Cradle (Korean, wife has the foil)
73 Gemstone Mine (Judge)
74 Marsh Flats
75 Misty Rainforest
76 Overgrown Tomb
77 Polluted Delta (Judge)
78 Twilight Mire
79 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (Japanese)
80 Verdant Catacombs
81 Winding Canyons (Korean) <-- No particular reason. Just because.
82 Windswept Heath (Judge)
83 Wooded Foothills
Basic Lands:
84-93 Forest
94-99 Swamp
Well that's enough for now. Have fun picking and prodding at it, just remember the [c] tag in the title and don't cry about it not playing fair.
Changelog: 9/2/11
-Memory Jar (Just really awkward to make work out right)
-Ill-Gotten Gains (I never really found myself wanting to cast it all that often)
-Fresh Meat (Bad idea)
-Ad Nauseam (People whine too much. Degenerate card, needs to be banned. Don't believe me? Play it yourself sometime.)
-Forest (Deck sometimes has issues getting black)
-Forest (Deck sometimes has issues getting black)
-Brainspoil (With AdN gone one of Brainspoil's best tutor targets left)
+Melira, Sylvok Outcast (I decided I wanted to run Melira + Woodfall Primus in a deck even though it is seven shades of horrible)
+Grim Tutor (I own one now)
+Beseech the Queen (I hunted down a foil)
+Woodfall Primus (See Melira, also it is another removal card)
+City of Brass (See Forest)
+Gemstone Mine (See Forest)
+Winding Canyons (I found a Korean one)
+Sylvan Library (The only reason I didn't have it in here before was I didn't have a Legends one, I have since fixed this problem)
Pretty much. It's reasonably resilient all things considered. I've made a couple of changes so I should probably update the list but yeah.
Planeswalkers tend to just not do enough for the deck so I don't run them in it. I think my MBC deck has the most 'walkers in it and that's just because all 3 ones that black can use are control focused. Rhys has Garruk, Primal Hunter because he's just better than Wildspeaker and most of the time if you draw GPH you want to cast him, but if Baby Garruk is on the table you generally don't have a good way to get rid of him.
For this deck.. who knows? Maybe the new Garruk will be good. The new Liliana might provide some token generation with Nath. I might test it. Most of my attention has been on playtesting modern and tinkering with my wife's rather brutal Rhys the Redeemed deck.
I COULD do that, but I don't see much reason to. Sadistic Hypnotist + Nath pretty much wipes out hands by itself. One of the things the deck is good about is not being reliant on Nath in any way shape or form. He's helpful, sometimes he's good, but if my opponent can answer him all day, I am secretly laughing at their wasted effort. I prefer my two-card combos to just win me the game and neither of those really do anything by themselves. Some of the cards in the deck might seem a bit awkward but they're pretty much all in there for a reason. Also, posted current build.
I have been playing this deck for quite a while in multi player edh and some cards that i would recommend running though some dont seem like they would be good, but actualy are good are:
Sorin Markov Death Cloud this is an easy win con everytime i have played it which i usally play for 8 or 9 people scoop due to the effect that people discard first then you get all the tokens, and after you get the tokens you sac 8 or 9 of them.
I just put all the cards that i think are good with nath i dont know if you already have the cards in but i just named the ones i think are important that i like. i have had great success with this deck and i run alot of those cards that people hate soooo much. It makes me happy to see them angry.
You've pretty much gone a different direction with the deck which is perfectly fine depending on your metagame. The problem is that the deck is innately slower than it should be because it wants too much mana early while juggling other things. If your local group allows for you to survive until turn 7 or 8 then cards like Death Cloud and Necropotence become a lot better. My build is more combo oriented and your build is much more control based judging by your card selection. I would strongly suggest putting in the Chains of Mephistopheles + Anvil of Bogardan combo for your build. Chains in itself shuts off card draw and Anvil generates you tokens at a fairly reasonable clip (1 per turn).
I have tried out some of those cards at one point or another. Myojin got cut for Sadistic Hypnotist because while Hypnotist might not generate as many tokens, I can cheat him into play via Tooth and Nail or Chord of Calling and he still does his job. I prefer to avoid color hosers because well, they just aren't terribly useful often enough. Boseiju is already in the deck. As for the other cards, if they work for you, great. I am reasonably satisfied with most of my list for the time being. Perhaps Innistrad will bring me something new to change the mix up a bit.
I am able to survive by wipeing there hand early then able to keep my self alive with board wipes and cards like No Mercy and Dread also there are more that i cant put my finger on, cause i left my edh at someones house where we play edh everyday. I have actualy won quite early by getting no cards in there hand and haveing Quest for the Nihil stone out i was then able to keep them on no cards with cards like Larceny and Cunning lethemancer just destory people.
It can work and has for you, but don't be terribly surprised when someone finds a way out from under it. That's the nature of a playgroup afterall. As far as No Mercy and Dread go, neither of those cards work against Token Aggro very well and that is the only kind of aggro you should be concerned with. For the most part, especially in multiplayer, traditional aggro strategies don't work terribly well so they eventually turn into the one-hit wonder (one attack and wonder where your opponents went). I am not saying that my build will work in your group any better than yours does, just pointing out things to keep in mind. Metagaming shifts and cards like No Mercy and Dread are only good as long as you have people intending to attack you with creatures that don't regenerate or that matter if they stay alive.
Death Cloud this is an easy win con every time i have played it which i usually play for 8 or 9 people scoop due to the effect that people discard first then you get all the tokens, and after you get the tokens you sac 8 or 9 of them.
If you're thinking about saccing the Nath elf tokens you get from Death Cloud's discard to Death Cloud's creature sac, then that doesn't work unless you already had tokens out on the field. Death Cloud's abilities will resolve in order, then after it has resolved, the trigger will let Nath put out a bunch of tokens.
As for the deck, I'm interested in it because I might change my Savra as general to Nath. I'll see if it works better that way.
Oh, sorry for neglecting this thread. I've actually taken the deck apart since then because well, even though it doesn't do unfair things as well as other decks can, people decided that whining was better disruption than actually playing cards that interact with their opponents and mostly want to mash creatures against each other like developmentally disabled children fighting over mashed potatoes. I guess they don't get enough of that in Standard....
@Hirwaz: I'll do a quick rundown on the original post itself to explain choices on some of the cards and tricks. A lot of decisions are based on board state, but there are some odd things you can do that aren't obvious unless they're pointed out.
This build was originally shown to me by my longtime RL friend NideoVinja. He mostly abandoned it to go abuse bads with Pauper Commander lists and other things instead so I took over playing with it. Nath is very interesting to play. Almost the entire deck is part of one big combo engine and it is designed for competitive play to be the second combo deck at the table to try to win. The deck is very difficult to play optimally and the path to victory is rarely as simple as "assemble X and Y, win."
So, why Nath? Well, we wanted to play Green/Black. The other generals, quite frankly range from terrible to marginally better than cancer. I was really hoping the Commander precons would give me something better to work with but for some reason they skipped printing a playable GB Legend. Nath does a great job pretending to be disruption, pretending to generate tokens and often has really great synergy with Priest of Titania, Joraga Treespeaker and Elvish Archdruid.
Changes I would make right now, there is always a list of cards that might end up in the deck. Currently the lists look like this:
Consideration List:
Minions' Murmurs
Wolfbriar Elemental
Woodland Cemetary
Llanowar Wastes
The deck functions perfectly fine as is, but this is also relatively competitive deck so it will most likely wreck anything that isn't top tier if you know how to use it. Nath can even perform moderately well against anything that isn't a faster combo deck (and sometimes you can accel a Mind Twist or Terastodon and put yourself far enough ahead to win). Right now it's about halfway between 1v1 and multiplayer but the focus is more on multiplayer.
Could it be drastically improved? Sure. I could change my general to Damia and add blue. However one of my favorite points with this deck that it feels like I am playing blue without actually playing blue. As it stands right now, it is interesting, resilient and most importantly fun to play, but far from top tier. I will gladly justify any card choices I have made because every card in the deck is there for a reason (in some cases it might not be a GOOD reason).
This deck is not for you if:
You don't like the "win now" strategy.
You dislike complex card interactions.
You have trouble analyzing board states and tutoring for the right cards (I have made mistakes with this often enough so don't feel like I am being an elitist).
You play with a group that thinks turn 7 or 8 is "early game" and they brag about their amazingly good EDH^H^H^H "Commander" decks that can goldfish a win somewhere around turn 10.
Disclaimer: Some of the cards are in here because I have really awesome versions of them. I will include what is cool about each version of the card as it is in the decklist so you will see what I mean. Red lettering designates foil.
General:
00 Nath of the Gilt Leaf
Mana Acceleration:
01 Arbor Elf <-- Often untaps Bayou/Overgrown Tomb, has actually untapped Dryad Arbor to chump block something once.
02 Birds of Paradise (Japanese Box Promo)
03 Chrome Mox (Grand Prix)
04 Coalition Relic (Japanese Phyrexia VS Coalition DD)
05 Eladmri's Vineyard (Korean)
06 Earthcraft (German) <-- Just incredible. Anything that generates tokens makes this card absurd. Especially when the CMC of the generator is less than or equal to the number of creatures generated. Extra silly combined with Phyrexian Altar and/or Skullclamp/Fecundity.
07 Elves of Deep Shadow (FNM)
08 Elvish Archdruid (Japanese)
09 Golgari Signet
10 Joraga Treespeaker <-- awkwardly enough, sometimes leveling this guy to 5 with a Concordant Crossroads in play generates a massive amount of mana.
11 Llanowar Elves (Beta)
12 Magus of the Vineyard
13 Mana Crypt (Spanish WB)
14 Mox Diamond (FtV)
15 Priest of Titania (FNM)
16 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary (Altered to "Brofellos")
17 Sakura Tribe-Elder (CHK, NOT FNM)
18 Sol Ring (Beta)
Tutor Effects:
19 Beseech the Queen
20 Chord of Calling
21 Crop Rotation <-- Just nuts. If you can make green mana you should be playing this card. Especially if you can also make black mana. Crop Rotation -> Bojuka Bog is just brutal against the right deck at the right time.
22 Demonic Tutor (Alpha)
23 Diabolic Intent (Chinese)
24 Diabolic Tutor (Chinese)
25 Fierce Empath
26 Green Sun's Zenith (Japanese)
27 Grim Tutor
28 Imperial Seal (Japanese)
29 Insidious Dreams
30 Natural Order (Judge) <-- This into Terastodon on turn 2 or 3 is the best way to crush someone in a 1v1 game. Usually by the time they recover you're so far ahead it doesn't matter anymore.
31 Primeval Titan (M11)
32 Shred Memory <-- transmute cards are underused in EDH.
33 Sylvan Tutor (Japanese)
34 Tooth and Nail
35 Vampiric Tutor (Judge)
36 Weird Harvest (ONS) <-- Sadistic Hypnotist is a great card to grab with this if you're casting it for 3 or 4 since you don't have to reveal until everyone is done finding guys and with Nath in play, you're the only one that gets to keep them.
37 Worldly Tutor (Japanese MG)
Card Draw:
38 Collective Unconscious (Japanese MM)
39 Regal Force
40 Reprocess
41 Skullclamp (DS)
42 Skullmulcher
43 Sylvan Library (Legends)
Combo Mana:
44 Cadaverous Bloom (French)
45 Skirge Familiar (Korean) <-- It's like a slightly worse Cadaverous Bloom that you can get via T&N or Chord of Calling. Awesome! (btw, it is legit to T&N for this and a Regal Force, draw a bunch of cards and discard the bad ones to power your next move).
46 Phyrexian Altar <-- This card turns massive tokens into massive mana that usually turns into massive tokens. Especially fun with X/>1's and Skullclamp.
Discard:
47 Mind Twist (Alpha)
48 Sadistic Hypnotist <-- Just absurd. This with Nath = No one gets a hand while it's your turn.
Removal:
49 Beast Within
50 Emerald Charm (Korean) <-- All around amazing. Another criminally underused card.
51 Terastodon (Japanese)
52 Woodfall Primus <-- I think I eventually took the bad Melira combo out, but it's still kinda funny I guess. In a mostly bad way.
Token Generation:
53 Avenger of Zendikar <-- mass tokens. When combined with Earthcraft/Altar does a REALLY sweet Great Whale impersonation.
54 Deranged Hermit (Judge) <-- see Avenger. The impersonation isn't as good (think Charlie Chaplin getting 3rd at a Charlie Chaplin impersonation contest) but does it have to be?
55 Plague of Vermin <-- Game ender. Everytime it has been worth it to cast this card I have immediately won. If you play it and it will help, go all the way.
56 Saproling Burst <-- nets you 1 mana when combined with either Altar OR Earthcraft and 7 with both.
57 Saproling Symbiosis <-- often generates more tokens than what you paid for. A good rule to follow in this deck.
58 Squirrel Nest <-- Obligatory.
59 Spontaneous Generation <-- re: Saproling Symbiosis
Big Finisher:
60 Exsanguinate
Misc:
61 Concordant Crossroads (Legends)
62 Eternal Witness (Fifth Dawn)
63 Melira, Sylvok Outcast (Japanese) <-- really only in the deck because I have a Japanese foil and a foil Woodfall Primus.
Non-Basics:
64 Bayou
65 Bloodstained Mire (Judge)
66 Bojuka Bog
67 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
68 City of Brass (JSS)
69 Command Tower (Japanese)
70 Deserted Temple
71 Dryad Arbor
72 Gaea's Cradle (Korean, wife has the foil)
73 Gemstone Mine (Judge)
74 Marsh Flats
75 Misty Rainforest
76 Overgrown Tomb
77 Polluted Delta (Judge)
78 Twilight Mire
79 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (Japanese)
80 Verdant Catacombs
81 Winding Canyons (Korean) <-- No particular reason. Just because.
82 Windswept Heath (Judge)
83 Wooded Foothills
Basic Lands:
84-93 Forest
94-99 Swamp
Well that's enough for now. Have fun picking and prodding at it, just remember the [c] tag in the title and don't cry about it not playing fair.
Changelog: 9/2/11
-Memory Jar (Just really awkward to make work out right)
-Ill-Gotten Gains (I never really found myself wanting to cast it all that often)
-Fresh Meat (Bad idea)
-Ad Nauseam (People whine too much. Degenerate card, needs to be banned. Don't believe me? Play it yourself sometime.)
-Forest (Deck sometimes has issues getting black)
-Forest (Deck sometimes has issues getting black)
-Brainspoil (With AdN gone one of Brainspoil's best tutor targets left)
+Melira, Sylvok Outcast (I decided I wanted to run Melira + Woodfall Primus in a deck even though it is seven shades of horrible)
+Grim Tutor (I own one now)
+Beseech the Queen (I hunted down a foil)
+Woodfall Primus (See Melira, also it is another removal card)
+City of Brass (See Forest)
+Gemstone Mine (See Forest)
+Winding Canyons (I found a Korean one)
+Sylvan Library (The only reason I didn't have it in here before was I didn't have a Legends one, I have since fixed this problem)
also, what do you think of garruk(both versions) in this deck? and what about sorin's 10 life effect?
Planeswalkers tend to just not do enough for the deck so I don't run them in it. I think my MBC deck has the most 'walkers in it and that's just because all 3 ones that black can use are control focused. Rhys has Garruk, Primal Hunter because he's just better than Wildspeaker and most of the time if you draw GPH you want to cast him, but if Baby Garruk is on the table you generally don't have a good way to get rid of him.
For this deck.. who knows? Maybe the new Garruk will be good. The new Liliana might provide some token generation with Nath. I might test it. Most of my attention has been on playtesting modern and tinkering with my wife's rather brutal Rhys the Redeemed deck.
Sorin Markov
Death Cloud this is an easy win con everytime i have played it which i usally play for 8 or 9 people scoop due to the effect that people discard first then you get all the tokens, and after you get the tokens you sac 8 or 9 of them.
Quest for the Nihil Stone
Larceny
Necrogen Mist
Nezumi Bone-Reader if you have infinited black mana combo this is infinite discard
Mana Reflection
Putrefy
Sisters of Stone Death a good mind control.
Boseiju Who Shelters All good when you send up Death Cloud
Bottomless Pit
Cunning Lethemancer
Tsunami just to get those blue players angry
Painful Quandary my favorite edh card of all time
Underworld Dreams when they do draw cards to get them in there hand this is nice
Venser's Journal great with necropotence
Necropotence great with Vensers journal
Liliana Vess good tutor
Decree of Pain
Damnation
Strands of Night Good creature return
Dread hehe
No Mercy hehe
Graveborn Muse Good card advantage
Myojin of Night's Reach TOKENS GALORE!
Stench of Evil herro plains!
Syphon Mind
I just put all the cards that i think are good with nath i dont know if you already have the cards in but i just named the ones i think are important that i like. i have had great success with this deck and i run alot of those cards that people hate soooo much. It makes me happy to see them angry.
Man they would be handsome.
Naya Mid Rang
I have tried out some of those cards at one point or another. Myojin got cut for Sadistic Hypnotist because while Hypnotist might not generate as many tokens, I can cheat him into play via Tooth and Nail or Chord of Calling and he still does his job. I prefer to avoid color hosers because well, they just aren't terribly useful often enough. Boseiju is already in the deck. As for the other cards, if they work for you, great. I am reasonably satisfied with most of my list for the time being. Perhaps Innistrad will bring me something new to change the mix up a bit.
Man they would be handsome.
Naya Mid Rang
If you're thinking about saccing the Nath elf tokens you get from Death Cloud's discard to Death Cloud's creature sac, then that doesn't work unless you already had tokens out on the field. Death Cloud's abilities will resolve in order, then after it has resolved, the trigger will let Nath put out a bunch of tokens.
As for the deck, I'm interested in it because I might change my Savra as general to Nath. I'll see if it works better that way.
RGodo, Bandit WarlordR
GSeton, Krosan ProtectorG
BGJarad, Golgari Lich LordGB
@Hirwaz: I'll do a quick rundown on the original post itself to explain choices on some of the cards and tricks. A lot of decisions are based on board state, but there are some odd things you can do that aren't obvious unless they're pointed out.