I was curious as to what you all thought the best blue based control deck would be after the ban. The consensus is that control will be playing 4 ancestral visions main. But with that being said, what shell will it shine in, and with a new meta what will be the best option.
In my mind I see three possibilities: Esper, Jeskai, or Grixis. Each one benefits from the addition of AV. Another option is to include the Thopter sword combo as well.
So the question I bring to you is: What will be the top dog in the control world? and will it include the thopter combo?
My initial thought are either a combo-less version of jeskai or grixis. I felt that jeskai had trouble with emptying their, now with AV we can reload. For Grixis, they are all about 2-for-1 plays and the prospect of goblin dark dweller to replay visions is crazy. I have little experience with the thopter combo.
Grixis comboless looks most powerful to me, mostly because of the availability of the GDD-AV interaction. I'm not.currently playing Modern (building my first BWx list atm) but my understanding is that Grixis is very grindy, and I don't see it needing a combo as yet another grindy element. Please correct me if I'm wrong tho
2-4 copies of AV would draw (pun intended) me into playing Esper, while my current leaning is towards playing Abzan or Mardu, or even just straight Orzhov. Sadly the (new) cost of 4 AV is probably prohibitive enough to me to keep me at 2 copies if I decide to buy in :/
I think the Grixis shell with the combo is going to be very strong. Think of the Grixis Twin shell but slide in AVs, SOTM combo, and bang, you've got one hell of a starting point. The combo covers the Grixis shells problem with gaining life nicely, while still allowing for a better early game than Esper or Jeskai (Imo).
1. Sultai Control
2. Faeries
3. Esper Variants
4. Grixis Variants
5. Blue Tron
6. UW Tron
7. Jeskai Variants
8. Temur Variants
9. Tezzeret Control
Each of those will see play, since those are already existing decks that people have placed a lot of time into in the past and we have records for Modern dating back to Extended to try older lists versus newer deck innovations that did not exist back in Ancient Extended. So as far as the meta goes we have three aspects:
1. Ancient Extended Decks looking for new life
2. Unbans creating new experiments in old existing decks
3. New cards adding new aspects to old decks, such as Thing in the Ice
The one deck I am advocating for right now is Eldrazi Midrange. While the deck will not become Tier 1, it has an excellent match up with many graveyard dependent strategies. There are enough new tools that make the deck viable and we still have another set with Emrakul to provide us with new Eldrazi.
This is probably the most open Modern has been for quite sometime since the ban on Treasure Cruise. I think we'll see a wonderful new deck or two pop up in the next few months, and the old standby decks like Affinity will continue to reign alongside the new kings.
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i think esper is going to be a thing with the combo. lingering souls basically says you can ditch meek in the GY and not give 2 *****s about doing it. not only that but the filtering via forbidden alchemy and mystic teachings atleast makes the deck look super good on paper.
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Tooth & Nail........Grishoalbrand....Living Dominance....Tezzerator.........Vannifar Pod
My Decks that have been BANNED
DRS Jund | Kiki-Pod | Bloom Titan | Splinter Twin | KCI
I voted Other because I'm doing pretty well in testing (pre-board) with UW Thopter-Sword Combo-Control. It's pretty all-in on the combo--2 manlands, 3 Tiagos, and a Not Forgotten are not what I would call alternate win cons. It currently does NOT run Ancestral Visions, but UWR Control with AV and no combo is having a very hard time pre-board against this deck (admittedly, UW Thopter-Sword usually wins the AV counter wars, but UWR Control has no ways to profitably answer the combo maindeck once both pieces stick and is praying for Stony Silence post-board). Thopter-Sword has lost to aggression + losing 1 Thopter Foundry before, though (against Jund, Melira Company, the list will probably keep growing).
I also voted for Other because, in my admittedly limited testing, UB Faeries with AV and Tiago still loses to Melira Company (back when I tested AV pre-unbans, Faeries lost to Pod practically all the time but lost less hard with Tiago than with AV because removal is that crucial in that match-up--Faeries once resolved 2 AVs and still lost back then), UWR Control with AV still loses to RG Tron with Sanctum of Ugin and no Eye of Ugin and no Emrakul, and UWR Control with AV also loses to my Grixis Pieces of the Puzzle No AV Midrange-Control deck. Even when the AV decks resolve AV at least once, they still lose.
So far, 2 decks that my UW Thopter-Sword deck regularly loses to (pre-board) are RG Tron and Grishoalbrand (Grishoalbrand's threat density is too high, RG Tron continuously bulldozes my combo pieces and Ghost Quarters Academy Ruins).
Otherwise, whenever Thopter-Sword sticks the combo for 2 or more turns, it completely razes. If you can't kill by Turn 3-4, you need artifact hate FAST (and preferably repeatedly) or you're dead--the deck generally shrugs off one targeted discard or counterspell. If your graveyard hate is on legs, UW Thopter-Sword has the removal for it. I fear that we have a new monster on our hands with any Thopter-Sword build.
I think the Grixis shell with the combo is going to be very strong. Think of the Grixis Twin shell but slide in AVs, SOTM combo, and bang, you've got one hell of a starting point. The combo covers the Grixis shells problem with gaining life nicely, while still allowing for a better early game than Esper or Jeskai (Imo).
i thought the same but i took it for a spin... and the combo is not that easy to land esp when you're in grixis... and you take out all the other wincons in the deck to dedicate to the combo... AV is also tough because you run into iok vs av turn 1 a lot...
my general feeling is that you have to dedicate a lot more cards to the thopter combo to make it more consistently available as quickly as possible... which is why i think the tezz lists are pretty good...
since AV is now a commmon denominator, with the rise of thopter sword combo and blue based control decks which also heavily utilizes the graveyard, I estimate that both artifact hate and GY hate will see an increase in the SB, even main board. Assuming that's correct, the control variant depends the least on artifact/gy or utilizes artifact/gy the most efficiently will likely do the best.
that being said, I personally feel control with thopter/sword will work better in a shell that focuses on late game, and it has good synergies with board wipes. naturally, we would be looking at UW/x decks, UW with combo, jeskai with combo, and esper with combo. Out of these, i'd naturally think that Jeskai still does the best against the aggro field (bolt and helix), but its advantage over the other two decks is diminishing. UW and Esper both have better late game than Jeskai, while i think having access to black would help mirror matches due to availability of discards and since control decks both hold a sizeable hand, discards would not be a bad top deck in a mirror. therefore I think Esper is going to see a rise and potentially surpass the other UW/x decks, while UW does well with its consistency in manabase and access to AV. While grixis can also play the long game and use damnation, i strongly doubt the late game threat quality (looking at elspeth, lingering souls, and gideon) in UW/x shells.
The other approach is to go combo-less, and adopt a more tempo/midrange plan with more proactive(tapout) play style and closes the game quicker. this variant of the strategy relies less on GY and artifacts, and is less affected by the incoming hate. in this case UWR and Grixis imo have advantages because of the access to snap+bolt. grixis has better early/mid game threats than UWR in my opinion in tasigur/angler/khalitas, while discards helps with a faster TITI flip (and i'd suppose TITI doesnt synergize with board wipes anyway).
so to conclude, correct me if im wrong but i believe esper/uw will do well in a late game control style, while grixis can do better in a more tempo/midrange shell
I personally am a fan of UW Gifts right now. It can easily beat most unfair decks in the first game due to the fact that Affinity, Infect, and Abzan Company can't easily beat Elesh Norn and it being impossible for Burn to overcome Iona. Even if graveyard-hate is brought in, Burn still has a hard time against 4 Negates, 3 Mana Leaks, 4 Logic Knots, 3 Dispels, 4 Spell Snares, and 3 Snapcaster Mages postboard, and Affinity still doesn't do well against sweepers+Spell Snare+removal+Lingering Souls, so it should be able to survive hate against unfair decks. Against fair nonblue decks, it still gets a huge advantage postboard because BGx cannot answer Lingering Souls and Geist of Saint Traft+Removal+Countermagic+Ancestral Vision, Gifts Ungiven, and Ravnica Jace. And against blue fair decks, AV has made it much better. Before the unban, UW Gifts still had to try to resolve a 3-4-drop (Gifts, Jace, Cryptic Command, Mystical Teachings, Snapcaster Mage, etc.) to get more cards, which was easy to beat in counter-wars. However, if you board in AV against decks like Grixis, Esper, and WUR, you can get card advantage for only 1 mana. That along with having threats that blue decks usually cannot answer (Geist of Saint Traft and Lingering Souls), having removal that hits big creatures, and having more countermagic than most other blue decks means that it should be easy to beat postboard. I'm probably wrong on all of this though.
I need to give some testing to the variants with the Combo in it. I think it could be very good. I think the best home for it is the control deck that has the best early game answers, which I think will be very meta dependent.
My eyes are currently on Jeskai and Grixis. I played with the comboless jeskai and found it to be quite good, but slow to close a game (which is not a surprise). Perhaps a deck that is a little more threat dense in Grixis would be a solid option.
I havent looked into sultai control, that's an interesting idea.
I voted Other because I'm doing pretty well in testing (pre-board) with UW Thopter-Sword Combo-Control. It's pretty all-in on the combo--2 manlands, 3 Tiagos, and a Not Forgotten are not what I would call alternate win cons. It currently does NOT run Ancestral Visions, but UWR Control with AV and no combo is having a very hard time pre-board against this deck (admittedly, UW Thopter-Sword usually wins the AV counter wars, but UWR Control has no ways to profitably answer the combo maindeck once both pieces stick and is praying for Stony Silence post-board). Thopter-Sword has lost to aggression + losing 1 Thopter Foundry before, though (against Jund, Melira Company, the list will probably keep growing).
When the ThopterSword decks become the new thing, UWR Control will start playing Jace, Architect of Thought maindeck as a 2-off I think. Even in the non-combo match it's a fine card that allows card selection.
My gut tells me that the best AV deck is Jeskai with the Kiki-Jiki combo. Stalling until AV unSuspends is easier when you have a ton of 4-toughness blockers (Wall of Omens, Deceiver Exarch, Restoration Angel), and the threat of a combo kill to make your opponent think twice about tapping out.
Still not sure on the best Sword deck, but I'm skeptical of Tezzeret. I don't feel safe playing a PW unless I can throw up a blocker or board wipe first.
Can someone please explain to me why Thopter/Sword is better than Gifts/Rites in a deck that isn't built around artifacts? People keep bringing up the idea that control decks with Thopter/Sword will be a thing, but it doesn't seem to have many advantages over Gifts/Rites. Just compare them.
1. Usability of combo pieces: One of the main problems with Thopter/Sword in nonartifact decks is that Thopter Foundry and Sword of the Meek do nothing or almost nothing on their own and do nothing if you are facing graveyard hate or artifact hate. This clogs up decks with dead draws, and if you are running 3-4 Ancestral Visions as well you will be running far more dead cards than you would in any other deck. If you use Gifts/Rites instead, this isn't a problem. Gifts Ungiven is a 1-card combo, so it should work immediately and you won't have to wait to find another combo piece. However, even if you can't combo immediately with Gifts Ungiven, it is still a potent card. Even if you don't alter your deck to optimally use Gifts as a double tutor, it still be used to accumulate a ton of card-advantage and crush opposing fair decks. And if you make just a few slight tweaks (such as running 1 Wrath of God, 1 Day of Judgment, and 1 Supreme Verdict instead of running 3 Supreme Verdicts), it becomes the best card in your deck even without the combo.
2. Vulnerability to hate: Thopter/Sword is vulnerable to a ton of commonly-played cards. It dies to artifact-removal. It gets countered by both 2-mana counterspells and Spell Snare. It gets exiled to graveyard-hate. It gets stopped by Stony Silence. It gets destroyed by Abrupt Decay. In contrast, Gifts only gets stopped by graveyard-hate and counterspells, which makes it a much more reliable win.
3. Speed of win: While Thopter/Sword seems like it would be faster due to its lower cost, it also forms a combo that isn't an instant win. Even if you get both pieces of Thopter/Sword in play, you still aren't safe against some decks like Infect, Abzan Company, and Affinity. Since it takes several turns for you to win with the Thopter/Sword combo, you are not guaranteed to win just by playing it. Even against decks without poison counters or infinite combos, Thopter/Sword will not necessarily win the game if you are close to death the turn you play it and don't have enough mana left to generate 3-4 tokens. In contrast, if you play Gifts and reanimate a creature, it is almost always an instant win. Burn can't beat Iona. Affinity, Abzan Company, and Infect can't beat Elesh Norn. Most fair decks have no actual way to beat Iona if she actually makes it onto the battlefield. It is just a much faster and more consistent win.
4. Consistency: In Thopter/Sword, you are hoping that you draw a copy of Thopter Foundry and a copy of Sword of the Meek. Even with additional support cards like Muddle the Mixture, that is still less likely than finding 1 copy of Gifts Ungiven, especially when you consider that in Thopter/Sword you don't run 4 copies of each card while in Gifts Ungiven you run 4 copies of Gifts Ungiven.
If all of this is true, what is so great about Thopter/Sword?
Valanarch I agree with you 100%. Not only is the SotM combo very easy to hate on from several different angles, many of those angles are already being played against other decks as well. It could spike some big events right now when people aren't prepared for it that much yet but it seems ulikely it can stay at the top once the meta becomes more defined
As for the best control deck I do expect it to be UWr with AV. Grixis can do incredibly degenerate stuff with graveyard loops but its weakness against burn always makes me skeptical of long-lasting success
because spending 4 mana EOT to drop 2 things on the grave and then spend your whole next turn to drop a..."bomb" aint good enough for modern.
the magic land where you drop elesh norn vs affinity is rare, be honest. same goes for the best case scenario with Iona.
and dont compare both strategies, sword + thopter is just a side combo, that's feared by your opponent, while with gifts you have your whole deck dedicated to it. that's the difference.
i voted Other.
also, i don't really think that the foundry/sword combo is anything to be afraid of. but, that could be because my RUG takes it out every time with Ancient Grudge and everybody i've played against has only tried to stick it in a certain control shell(grixis, american, esper). this means no kill with Disciple of the Vault and no going infinite with Krark-Clan Ironworks, which i think, is the best part about the combo. this means that people only using the combo because it was just unbanned will find out how crappy it is with no real combo support. Pyroclasm, Volcanic Fallout, Slagstorm, Anger of the Gods, etc., anybody?
so, i'll stick with my RUG control deck that uses, "can't be used in modern," counters to keep people on a constant and consistent no-spells-allowed-for-you strategy while beating face with Young Peezy, Huntmaster, and 2/2 flying drake tokens knowing only Volcanic Fallout and Supreme Verdict as my kryptonite.
because spending 4 mana EOT to drop 2 things on the grave and then spend your whole next turn to drop a..."bomb" aint good enough for modern.
But playing 2 artifacts that do nothing on their own on separate turns in your mainphase and then repeatedly putting one of them into your graveyard (where it is just as vulnerable to hate as Gifts/Rites is) to get an advantage that still doesn't automatically win you the game is?
the magic land where you drop elesh norn vs affinity is rare, be honest. same goes for the best case scenario with Iona.
It happens every time that you draw Gifts Ungiven and aren't dead. And it happens a hell of a lot more often than the magic land where you drop Thopter Foundry and Sword of the Meek, get neither of them destroyed or countered, and make an army of thopters (especially since most decks aren't even running 4 of both Foundry and Sword).
and dont compare both strategies, sword + thopter is just a side combo, that's feared by your opponent, while with gifts you have your whole deck dedicated to it. that's the difference.
That makes no sense. Did you even look at the list I posted. It just has 4 Gifts, 1 Iona, 1 Elesh Norn, and 1 Unburial Rites. That is it. 7 cards. 7 cards is also the minimum number of cards usually used in Thopter/Sword if you want any consistency at all. So no, I don't have to dedicate my deck to Gifts to make it good. And I can still make good noncombo plays with Gifts against decks where the combo won't work. Try beating Gifts Ungiven for Lingering Souls, Snapcaster Mage, Jace 4.0, and another Gifts Ungiven as a Midrange deck. It won't work well.
think a bit.
Congratulations, you have successfully managed to portray yourself as a condescending jerk. I'm proud of you.
because spending 4 mana EOT to drop 2 things on the grave and then spend your whole next turn to drop a..."bomb" aint good enough for modern.
But playing 2 artifacts that do nothing on their own on separate turns in your mainphase and then repeatedly putting one of them into your graveyard (where it is just as vulnerable to hate as Gifts/Rites is) to get an advantage that still doesn't automatically win you the game is?
the magic land where you drop elesh norn vs affinity is rare, be honest. same goes for the best case scenario with Iona.
It happens every time that you draw Gifts Ungiven and aren't dead. And it happens a hell of a lot more often than the magic land where you drop Thopter Foundry and Sword of the Meek, get neither of them destroyed or countered, and make an army of thopters (especially since most decks aren't even running 4 of both Foundry and Sword).
and dont compare both strategies, sword + thopter is just a side combo, that's feared by your opponent, while with gifts you have your whole deck dedicated to it. that's the difference.
That makes no sense. Did you even look at the list I posted. It just has 4 Gifts, 1 Iona, 1 Elesh Norn, and 1 Unburial Rites. That is it. 7 cards. 7 cards is also the minimum number of cards usually used in Thopter/Sword if you want any consistency at all. So no, I don't have to dedicate my deck to Gifts to make it good. And I can still make good noncombo plays with Gifts against decks where the combo won't work. Try beating Gifts Ungiven for Lingering Souls, Snapcaster Mage, Jace 4.0, and another Gifts Ungiven as a Midrange deck. It won't work well.
think a bit.
Congratulations, you have successfully managed to portray yourself as a condescending jerk. I'm proud of you.
i'm with Valanarch on this one. other than sounding like your name is Dick, you back a combo that's twice as prone to being disrupted as Gifts. yet he's the one in the wrong? this makes as much sense as you trying to burn the guy for stating his opinion and then asking a question about why people like the Foundry/Sword combo more than Gifts.
heck, my Primal Surge deck would, more than likely, combo off more consistently compared to somehody taking Foundry/Sword and cramming it into a random control shell that they like the most.
Don't be a Dick, man. be a Jeffrey. everybody loves a Jeffrey.
Its the fact that Thopter-sword is more mana efficient, resilient and broad than gifts/rites. Rites line of play straight up loses to dumb dumb tempo plays. Getting rites remanded is awful, getting norn/iona bounced is awful, how do you deal with LotV and scooze? You're using eight mana probably wasting two turns to do it. Thopter sword can come down quick and start churning out chump blockers.
I'm not even sure if thopter-sword is amazing in modern but I think it is stronger than gifts is.
how is giftsing in a bomb less prone to disruption than thopter? both get hit by grave hate, both can be countered, the only difference is one gets hit by artifact hate (sideboard stuff) and the other gets hit by creature removal (mainboard stuff)
*edit* also, how does any sweeper solve the thopter problem? first of all, they make them at your EoT, second, after you do that, they just make more?
...
*edit* also, how does any sweeper solve the thopter problem? first of all, they make them at your EoT, second, after you do that, they just make more?
if you force enough damage at them, they don't have the luxury of comboing at the opportune time. they've got to combo not just to gain life and stay alive, but to provide blockers to prolong the game as well. a sweeper cleans up the leftover tokens and prevents your opponent from being able to attack you their next turn with the few(if any) leftover thopters. this all, of course, only matters if they're playing with Krark-Clan Ironworks. because i can pretty much promise you that the combo without ironworks would produce dismal thopters at best. you could take a few swings before you actually have to be worried.
plus, Volcanic Fallout is an instant. so even if my opponent can combo at the opportune time(my EoT, for example), Volvanic Fallout would still delay them a turn and that adds more to the clock of disrupting the combo(I.E. Ancient Grudge or any other Affinity hate that sideboards are loaded with).
Yes, the lifegain could be problematic, but with a playset of Cryptic Command and Remand as well as a couple of Izzet Charm, it can be controled. Also, Electrolyze and Anger of the Gods mainboard will greatly help to deal with 1/1 tokens. Sword/Thopter is a slow combo and Scapeshift is a slow combo deck too, so it seems like a good matchup for Scapeshift.
I was curious as to what you all thought the best blue based control deck would be after the ban. The consensus is that control will be playing 4 ancestral visions main. But with that being said, what shell will it shine in, and with a new meta what will be the best option.
In my mind I see three possibilities: Esper, Jeskai, or Grixis. Each one benefits from the addition of AV. Another option is to include the Thopter sword combo as well.
So the question I bring to you is: What will be the top dog in the control world? and will it include the thopter combo?
My initial thought are either a combo-less version of jeskai or grixis. I felt that jeskai had trouble with emptying their, now with AV we can reload. For Grixis, they are all about 2-for-1 plays and the prospect of goblin dark dweller to replay visions is crazy. I have little experience with the thopter combo.
2-4 copies of AV would draw (pun intended) me into playing Esper, while my current leaning is towards playing Abzan or Mardu, or even just straight Orzhov. Sadly the (new) cost of 4 AV is probably prohibitive enough to me to keep me at 2 copies if I decide to buy in :/
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1. Sultai Control
2. Faeries
3. Esper Variants
4. Grixis Variants
5. Blue Tron
6. UW Tron
7. Jeskai Variants
8. Temur Variants
9. Tezzeret Control
Each of those will see play, since those are already existing decks that people have placed a lot of time into in the past and we have records for Modern dating back to Extended to try older lists versus newer deck innovations that did not exist back in Ancient Extended. So as far as the meta goes we have three aspects:
1. Ancient Extended Decks looking for new life
2. Unbans creating new experiments in old existing decks
3. New cards adding new aspects to old decks, such as Thing in the Ice
The one deck I am advocating for right now is Eldrazi Midrange. While the deck will not become Tier 1, it has an excellent match up with many graveyard dependent strategies. There are enough new tools that make the deck viable and we still have another set with Emrakul to provide us with new Eldrazi.
This is probably the most open Modern has been for quite sometime since the ban on Treasure Cruise. I think we'll see a wonderful new deck or two pop up in the next few months, and the old standby decks like Affinity will continue to reign alongside the new kings.
Modern
Commander
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<a href="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-lists/588020-unpowered-themed-enchantment-an-enchanted-evening">An Enchanted Evening Cube </a>
Tooth & Nail........Grishoalbrand....Living Dominance....Tezzerator.........Vannifar Pod
My Decks that have been BANNED
DRS Jund | Kiki-Pod | Bloom Titan | Splinter Twin | KCI
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I also voted for Other because, in my admittedly limited testing, UB Faeries with AV and Tiago still loses to Melira Company (back when I tested AV pre-unbans, Faeries lost to Pod practically all the time but lost less hard with Tiago than with AV because removal is that crucial in that match-up--Faeries once resolved 2 AVs and still lost back then), UWR Control with AV still loses to RG Tron with Sanctum of Ugin and no Eye of Ugin and no Emrakul, and UWR Control with AV also loses to my Grixis Pieces of the Puzzle No AV Midrange-Control deck. Even when the AV decks resolve AV at least once, they still lose.
So far, 2 decks that my UW Thopter-Sword deck regularly loses to (pre-board) are RG Tron and Grishoalbrand (Grishoalbrand's threat density is too high, RG Tron continuously bulldozes my combo pieces and Ghost Quarters Academy Ruins).
Otherwise, whenever Thopter-Sword sticks the combo for 2 or more turns, it completely razes. If you can't kill by Turn 3-4, you need artifact hate FAST (and preferably repeatedly) or you're dead--the deck generally shrugs off one targeted discard or counterspell. If your graveyard hate is on legs, UW Thopter-Sword has the removal for it. I fear that we have a new monster on our hands with any Thopter-Sword build.
i thought the same but i took it for a spin... and the combo is not that easy to land esp when you're in grixis... and you take out all the other wincons in the deck to dedicate to the combo... AV is also tough because you run into iok vs av turn 1 a lot...
my general feeling is that you have to dedicate a lot more cards to the thopter combo to make it more consistently available as quickly as possible... which is why i think the tezz lists are pretty good...
that being said, I personally feel control with thopter/sword will work better in a shell that focuses on late game, and it has good synergies with board wipes. naturally, we would be looking at UW/x decks, UW with combo, jeskai with combo, and esper with combo. Out of these, i'd naturally think that Jeskai still does the best against the aggro field (bolt and helix), but its advantage over the other two decks is diminishing. UW and Esper both have better late game than Jeskai, while i think having access to black would help mirror matches due to availability of discards and since control decks both hold a sizeable hand, discards would not be a bad top deck in a mirror. therefore I think Esper is going to see a rise and potentially surpass the other UW/x decks, while UW does well with its consistency in manabase and access to AV. While grixis can also play the long game and use damnation, i strongly doubt the late game threat quality (looking at elspeth, lingering souls, and gideon) in UW/x shells.
The other approach is to go combo-less, and adopt a more tempo/midrange plan with more proactive(tapout) play style and closes the game quicker. this variant of the strategy relies less on GY and artifacts, and is less affected by the incoming hate. in this case UWR and Grixis imo have advantages because of the access to snap+bolt. grixis has better early/mid game threats than UWR in my opinion in tasigur/angler/khalitas, while discards helps with a faster TITI flip (and i'd suppose TITI doesnt synergize with board wipes anyway).
so to conclude, correct me if im wrong but i believe esper/uw will do well in a late game control style, while grixis can do better in a more tempo/midrange shell
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | URPhoenixUR | UWMiraclesUW |GBRJundGBR | UBFaeriesUB | UBWAd NauseumUBW |GBRWBlueless ShadowGBRW |
MTGA
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | UTempoU
Here is my list
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Condemn
4 Gifts Ungiven
4 Logic Knot
3 Mana Leak
2 Negate
4 Path to Exile
4 Spell Snare
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Calciform Pools
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
3 Seachrome Coast
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Watery Grave
3 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Ancestral Vision
1 Day of Judgment
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
3 Dispel
2 Negate
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
My eyes are currently on Jeskai and Grixis. I played with the comboless jeskai and found it to be quite good, but slow to close a game (which is not a surprise). Perhaps a deck that is a little more threat dense in Grixis would be a solid option.
I havent looked into sultai control, that's an interesting idea.
When the ThopterSword decks become the new thing, UWR Control will start playing Jace, Architect of Thought maindeck as a 2-off I think. Even in the non-combo match it's a fine card that allows card selection.
Still not sure on the best Sword deck, but I'm skeptical of Tezzeret. I don't feel safe playing a PW unless I can throw up a blocker or board wipe first.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
1. Usability of combo pieces: One of the main problems with Thopter/Sword in nonartifact decks is that Thopter Foundry and Sword of the Meek do nothing or almost nothing on their own and do nothing if you are facing graveyard hate or artifact hate. This clogs up decks with dead draws, and if you are running 3-4 Ancestral Visions as well you will be running far more dead cards than you would in any other deck. If you use Gifts/Rites instead, this isn't a problem. Gifts Ungiven is a 1-card combo, so it should work immediately and you won't have to wait to find another combo piece. However, even if you can't combo immediately with Gifts Ungiven, it is still a potent card. Even if you don't alter your deck to optimally use Gifts as a double tutor, it still be used to accumulate a ton of card-advantage and crush opposing fair decks. And if you make just a few slight tweaks (such as running 1 Wrath of God, 1 Day of Judgment, and 1 Supreme Verdict instead of running 3 Supreme Verdicts), it becomes the best card in your deck even without the combo.
2. Vulnerability to hate: Thopter/Sword is vulnerable to a ton of commonly-played cards. It dies to artifact-removal. It gets countered by both 2-mana counterspells and Spell Snare. It gets exiled to graveyard-hate. It gets stopped by Stony Silence. It gets destroyed by Abrupt Decay. In contrast, Gifts only gets stopped by graveyard-hate and counterspells, which makes it a much more reliable win.
3. Speed of win: While Thopter/Sword seems like it would be faster due to its lower cost, it also forms a combo that isn't an instant win. Even if you get both pieces of Thopter/Sword in play, you still aren't safe against some decks like Infect, Abzan Company, and Affinity. Since it takes several turns for you to win with the Thopter/Sword combo, you are not guaranteed to win just by playing it. Even against decks without poison counters or infinite combos, Thopter/Sword will not necessarily win the game if you are close to death the turn you play it and don't have enough mana left to generate 3-4 tokens. In contrast, if you play Gifts and reanimate a creature, it is almost always an instant win. Burn can't beat Iona. Affinity, Abzan Company, and Infect can't beat Elesh Norn. Most fair decks have no actual way to beat Iona if she actually makes it onto the battlefield. It is just a much faster and more consistent win.
4. Consistency: In Thopter/Sword, you are hoping that you draw a copy of Thopter Foundry and a copy of Sword of the Meek. Even with additional support cards like Muddle the Mixture, that is still less likely than finding 1 copy of Gifts Ungiven, especially when you consider that in Thopter/Sword you don't run 4 copies of each card while in Gifts Ungiven you run 4 copies of Gifts Ungiven.
If all of this is true, what is so great about Thopter/Sword?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
As for the best control deck I do expect it to be UWr with AV. Grixis can do incredibly degenerate stuff with graveyard loops but its weakness against burn always makes me skeptical of long-lasting success
because spending 4 mana EOT to drop 2 things on the grave and then spend your whole next turn to drop a..."bomb" aint good enough for modern.
the magic land where you drop elesh norn vs affinity is rare, be honest. same goes for the best case scenario with Iona.
and dont compare both strategies, sword + thopter is just a side combo, that's feared by your opponent, while with gifts you have your whole deck dedicated to it. that's the difference.
think a bit.
also, i don't really think that the foundry/sword combo is anything to be afraid of. but, that could be because my RUG takes it out every time with Ancient Grudge and everybody i've played against has only tried to stick it in a certain control shell(grixis, american, esper). this means no kill with Disciple of the Vault and no going infinite with Krark-Clan Ironworks, which i think, is the best part about the combo. this means that people only using the combo because it was just unbanned will find out how crappy it is with no real combo support. Pyroclasm, Volcanic Fallout, Slagstorm, Anger of the Gods, etc., anybody?
so, i'll stick with my RUG control deck that uses, "can't be used in modern," counters to keep people on a constant and consistent no-spells-allowed-for-you strategy while beating face with Young Peezy, Huntmaster, and 2/2 flying drake tokens knowing only Volcanic Fallout and Supreme Verdict as my kryptonite.
But playing 2 artifacts that do nothing on their own on separate turns in your mainphase and then repeatedly putting one of them into your graveyard (where it is just as vulnerable to hate as Gifts/Rites is) to get an advantage that still doesn't automatically win you the game is?
It happens every time that you draw Gifts Ungiven and aren't dead. And it happens a hell of a lot more often than the magic land where you drop Thopter Foundry and Sword of the Meek, get neither of them destroyed or countered, and make an army of thopters (especially since most decks aren't even running 4 of both Foundry and Sword).
That makes no sense. Did you even look at the list I posted. It just has 4 Gifts, 1 Iona, 1 Elesh Norn, and 1 Unburial Rites. That is it. 7 cards. 7 cards is also the minimum number of cards usually used in Thopter/Sword if you want any consistency at all. So no, I don't have to dedicate my deck to Gifts to make it good. And I can still make good noncombo plays with Gifts against decks where the combo won't work. Try beating Gifts Ungiven for Lingering Souls, Snapcaster Mage, Jace 4.0, and another Gifts Ungiven as a Midrange deck. It won't work well.
Congratulations, you have successfully managed to portray yourself as a condescending jerk. I'm proud of you.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
i'm with Valanarch on this one. other than sounding like your name is Dick, you back a combo that's twice as prone to being disrupted as Gifts. yet he's the one in the wrong? this makes as much sense as you trying to burn the guy for stating his opinion and then asking a question about why people like the Foundry/Sword combo more than Gifts.
heck, my Primal Surge deck would, more than likely, combo off more consistently compared to somehody taking Foundry/Sword and cramming it into a random control shell that they like the most.
Don't be a Dick, man. be a Jeffrey. everybody loves a Jeffrey.
I'm not even sure if thopter-sword is amazing in modern but I think it is stronger than gifts is.
*edit* also, how does any sweeper solve the thopter problem? first of all, they make them at your EoT, second, after you do that, they just make more?
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
if you force enough damage at them, they don't have the luxury of comboing at the opportune time. they've got to combo not just to gain life and stay alive, but to provide blockers to prolong the game as well. a sweeper cleans up the leftover tokens and prevents your opponent from being able to attack you their next turn with the few(if any) leftover thopters. this all, of course, only matters if they're playing with Krark-Clan Ironworks. because i can pretty much promise you that the combo without ironworks would produce dismal thopters at best. you could take a few swings before you actually have to be worried.
plus, Volcanic Fallout is an instant. so even if my opponent can combo at the opportune time(my EoT, for example), Volvanic Fallout would still delay them a turn and that adds more to the clock of disrupting the combo(I.E. Ancient Grudge or any other Affinity hate that sideboards are loaded with).
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R