With the growing popularity of these archetypes, I think it's useful to discuss some SB tech against them. What do you think?
EDIT:
To get the ball rolling, I want to say that Pithing Needle naming Martyr of Sands should completely shut them down. Is it worth using some SB slots for pithing needle?
A properly built RUG Gifts Rock deck just trounces them. Admittedly, mine's a bit over-the-top, with both the Engineered Explosives-Academy Ruins-Crucible of Worlds-Life from the Loam and Punishing Fire-Grove of the Burnwillows-Life from the Loam-Chandra's Phoenix piles along with Seismic Assault, but that deck's engines just trounce Martyr Proc's. They can't stick a guy, Serra Ascendant gets cut down to size and then killed, Ghostly Prison won't stick, Wrath of God won't solve all the deck's problems, Ghost Quarter can't kill Grove forever, and even Elspeth dies. Who cares at what life RUG Gifts Rock stabilizes at or at what life Martyr Proc finally gets wiped out?
Yeah, properly built Gifts decks just wipe them out. Even Esper Gifts can join in on the fun with the EE pile (with Noxious Revival instead of LftL), then the Iona-Unburial Rites pile.
...Or you can just play combo like UR Storm, Ad Nauseam-Angel's Grace, Exarch Twin, or Melira Pod and pray their sideboard options don't kill you Games 2-3.
I play Martyr Proc and Soul sisters and control is a terrible matchup. It has game against aggro, but properly built control decks like gifts can knock it out easily.
I play Martyr Proc and Soul sisters and control is a terrible matchup. It has game against aggro, but properly built control decks like gifts can knock it out easily.
I agree with this, heartily. Permission control just makes getting our pieces in to play. It is a lot of counter, counter, bounce, Snappy Tom, rinse and repeat.
Permission is the only real archetype that gives MWC issues. Obviously, the lifegain makes MWC a nightmare matchup for aggro, but there are sideboard items that Gifts Control and deathcloud decks need to be aware of, since they wildly flip the matchup in favor of MWC.
Leyline of Sanctity - This is the big one. You can't use gifts, hand disruption, burn to the face, or liliana's edict effect. What's worse, you can't deal with it until you either naturally draw engineered explosives (and have the mana base to get 4 sunburst counters on it...), or you prepare for it with enchantment removal out of the sideboard.
Ensnaring Bridge - Criminally underplayed in general, this thing buys so much time that it's relatively easy for MWC to reach the late-game, which usually means emeria recurring martys, sun titans, necrotic slivers, etc. at which point you can't compete with that board state.
With that said, here are a couple cards that actually present some big problems for MWC -
Rain of Gore - 'nuff said. Watch people squirm when they play kitchen finks.
Tectonic Edge + Crucible of Worlds/Life from the Loam. The big thing MWC lacks is card draw, which means it's incredibly difficult for MWC to find an answer for the Modern format's wasteland lock. It's gotten to the point where I run 4 nihil spellbombs in my MWC sideboard just so I can deal with this line of attack from Gifts control lists.
Ajani Vengeant - Another criminally underplayed card, and one that Zoo players should be eyeballing over Elspeth or Gideon. Stick this guy with a spell pierce in hand? Grats on the game win, bro.
Countermagic - Seriously, cryptic command and remand are pretty good against a deck trying to play enough tax effects to get to the late-game. Spell Pierce is the usual suspect for Zoo, since it's a minimal tempo investment that usually buys them 2 turns against wrath effects. But remand is also a pain the butt for MWC, since it really can't afford to get time walked against any kind of pressure.
Generally, graveyard hate is also pretty solid, as are Jester's Cap effects, simply because MWC doesn't have a ton of win conditions.
I play Martyr Proc and Soul sisters and control is a terrible matchup. It has game against aggro, but properly built control decks like gifts can knock it out easily.
I also have a the worst games against living end.
This is true of some control decks but not all. Straight permission simply loses to MWC. If the MWC player can get Emeria online, no amount of permission can stop those plays.
When I play MWC, I have the hardest time dealing with gifts-rock decks that retrace raven's crime, worm haverst, etc.
unless it is infinite life any deck should be able to beat idiot life decks.
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...but delay is all that is needed for the right deck. Delay long enough for wincons to do their thing is sort of the point of MWC (and control in general). Now, I don't play Soul Sisters, but it does get results so it is doing something right.
The most basic weak point of MWC is the "mono-white" aspect, which is why many of us that started out with mono-white have started splashing or even building control decks around Vengeant. If the deck you're facing is mono-white find ways to hit it where it is weak, like card draw (and CA in general), mana accel.
beast89: I really cannot understand where you are coming from. Permission wrecked my MWC deck because I was never able to get any of my prison/bridge/hexproof type permanents on the battlefield, so I could get beat by fairly small things. When I was piloting MWC it was not at all unusual for the first 5-7 permanent spells I try to cast to be countered an/or bounced. It can be very difficult to put pressure on your opponent when the only thing you are doing it with is land (and maybe the Leyline you dropped turn 0).
beast89: I really cannot understand where you are coming from. Permission wrecked my MWC deck because I was never able to get any of my prison/bridge/hexproof type permanents on the battlefield, so I could get beat by fairly small things. When I was piloting MWC it was not at all unusual for the first 5-7 permanent spells I try to cast to be countered an/or bounced. It can be very difficult to put pressure on your opponent when the only thing you are doing it with is land (and maybe the Leyline you dropped turn 0).
Hmmm... maybe we're talking about different match-ups. But I have found that when facing permission decks, if he counters my spell, it's one for one and we're somewhat even. Except not really. Because I'm stocking up my graveyard with creatures that I can recur. My main goal is to get Emeria + 7 plains onto the battlefield and then my victory is pretty much inevitable.
Plus, if you use your low cmc spells, you can draw out his counters. Like, play Martyr, get it countered. Play Serra, get it countered. Now he's tapped out, play proclamation and watch him cry.
Also, I run 3x Grand Abolisher in my SB. Although it's quite difficult to get it into play against permission, I use it as a way of drawing out counters.
Hmmm... maybe we're talking about different match-ups. But I have found that when facing permission decks, if he counters my spell, it's one for one and we're somewhat even. Except not really. Because I'm stocking up my graveyard with creatures that I can recur. My main goal is to get Emeria + 7 plains onto the battlefield and then my victory is pretty much inevitable.
Well all the permission decks I face are at least partially tempo decks that use Snappy Tom, Clique, Venser, and less common Mystic Snake. These decks counter your spells and get a small beater in the deal, and since I have nothing to defend myself with (because it was countered) I get a lot of little stings. Additionally Snappy Tom means that "drawing out" counters is not nearly as helpful. Add in Creeping Tar Pit and it is a very tough win game 1, and still difficult game 2 + 3.
Well all the permission decks I face are at least partially tempo decks that use Snappy Tom, Clique, Venser, and less common Mystic Snake. These decks counter your spells and get a small beater in the deal, and since I have nothing to defend myself with (because it was countered) I get a lot of little stings. Additionally Snappy Tom means that "drawing out" counters is not nearly as helpful. Add in Creeping Tar Pit and it is a very tough win game 1, and still difficult game 2 + 3.
Ok, you're right. The tempo decks are a much more difficult match-up. But even those, if you can sneak a martyr or two through the counter-magic and try to survive up until you either get Emeria online or can start forecasting your martyrs ...
Unless theyre not stupid life decks, theyre a metacall to zoo and they can destroy you in pieces.
I find myself comfy with Flames of the blood hand in response to their martyr getting sacrified.
idiot life is what the archetype was called in extended.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
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Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Ok, you're right. The tempo decks are a much more difficult match-up. But even those, if you can sneak a martyr or two through the counter-magic and try to survive up until you either get Emeria online or can start forecasting your martyrs ...
You will probably point to this as the reason, but I don't run Martyr or Emeria. Even when I was running the deck as mono-white I was not a fan of Emeria. Emeria is too hard to get online, and too easy to hate. By that point in the game I would rather be shutting things down with a prison strategy.
With Martyr (when I was running mono-white) I would rather use the slots for actual control cards, or draw, or mana ramp. I like Martyr in a dedicated deck like Soul Sisters, but not in traditional MWC.
You will probably point to this as the reason, but I don't run Martyr or Emeria. Even when I was running the deck as mono-white I was not a fan of Emeria. Emeria is too hard to get online, and too easy to hate. By that point in the game I would rather be shutting things down with a prison strategy.
With Martyr (when I was running mono-white) I would rather use the slots for actual control cards, or draw, or mana ramp. I like Martyr in a dedicated deck like Soul Sisters, but not in traditional MWC.
Then you're doing it wrong. Martyr is good in every matchup save for true combo, aka splinter twin. Every other "combo" deck doesn't even create a degenerative board state, so the lifegain is actually relevant. 15 life against past in flames actually buys you 2-3 turns (not that you're going to win game 1), which is extremely important when you're digging for a nihil spellbomb or a thorn of amethyst.
Secondly, emeria trumps just about every other late-game board plan in modern. It's EXTREMELY difficult for most decks to handle a recurring martyr, let alone a recurring sun titan or necrotic sliver.
Then you're doing it wrong. Martyr is good in every matchup save for true combo, aka splinter twin. Every other "combo" deck doesn't even create a degenerative board state, so the lifegain is actually relevant. 15 life against past in flames actually buys you 2-3 turns (not that you're going to win game 1), which is extremely important when you're digging for a nihil spellbomb or a thorn of amethyst.
Secondly, emeria trumps just about every other late-game board plan in modern. It's EXTREMELY difficult for most decks to handle a recurring martyr, let alone a recurring sun titan or necrotic sliver.
martyr isn't good against true control either. Mostly because the life gain will only happen once, but traditionally control decks don't really care about life totals unless one is "infinite."
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Secondly, emeria trumps just about every other late-game board plan in modern. It's EXTREMELY difficult for most decks to handle a recurring martyr, let alone a recurring sun titan or necrotic sliver.
Okay, I played mono white with Martyr control for some time on MTGO before is started splashing because I had run out of ways to improve the deck. White has very little draw and no good acceleration, so it was extremely rare that I got 7 plains + Emeria before turn 10. When I did get my 7+ out earlier it is because I was hit with multiple paths- and as a result did not have choice cards in my GY. By that point I was either winning with a PW, or was loosing terribly. Emeria might seem like a way to pull out of that loosing spin, but Ghost Quarter, Tectonic Edge, and grave hate are all fairly common. I have no idea what alchemy of cards that is doing so well for you, or how I am "doing it wrong", or even what your metagame is like or how often you play, but I play every day and i found the mono-white control did not do as well relying on Martyr and Emeria, the Sky Ruin.
martyr isn't good against true control either. Mostly because the life gain will only happen once, but traditionally control decks don't really care about life totals unless one is "infinite."
Maybe you need to re-look at the meta. Nakamura's 4 color control list has punishing fire, kitchen finks, worm harvest, and eternal witness as win-conditions. A MWC list using martyrs would sooner be afraid of decking in the face of those win conditions.
Care to list any proven competitive control lists that render martyr irrelevant?
@Worm - its pretty simple. Shocklands allow for a fairly easy splash of 1 or 2 colors. As you've said yourself, the red splash is already proven to be a solid choice. The black splash is simply for necrotic sliver and drawing cards off nihil spellbomb for value. Both cards for the black splash are very generic and very useful against all the normal routes for disrupting the emeria engine. Ghost quarter isn't played, period. Tec edge sees play as a 1-of in some zoo lists and in gifts control. That's it.
I understand that you feel like your personal experiences on MODO define what to expect in a given meta, but the reality is that land destruction and tempo dexks in general are very underplayed right now, primarily because Zoo just crushes that strategy.
Maybe you need to re-look at the meta. Nakamura's 4 color control list has punishing fire, kitchen finks, worm harvest, and eternal witness as win-conditions. A MWC list using martyrs would sooner be afraid of decking in the face of those win conditions.
Care to list any proven competitive control lists that render martyr irrelevant?
@Worm - its pretty simple. Shocklands allow for a fairly easy splash of 1 or 2 colors. As you've said yourself, the red splash is already proven to be a solid choice. The black splash is simply for necrotic sliver and drawing cards off nihil spellbomb for value. Both cards for the black splash are very generic and very useful against all the normal routes for disrupting the emeria engine. Ghost quarter isn't played, period. Tec edge sees play as a 1-of in some zoo lists and in gifts control. That's it.
I understand that you feel like your personal experiences on MODO define what to expect in a given meta, but the reality is that land destruction and tempo dexks in general are very underplayed right now, primarily because Zoo just crushes that strategy.
reread traditionally. Teachings list run a 1 of extirpate/extraction that stops the infinite life part. If they can't reccur it with proc or emeria then the life gain doesn't matter thus the whole strategy is pretty fail.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
1. Have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
2. Stubbornly argue for at least 1 page of posts.
3. Regurgitate things you read on Starcitygames or Channelfireball.
4. Hate all netdeckers
5. Claim your 2nd place FNM deck broke the format and Delver is not even that good.
6. Tell everybody that MBC is coming back every time a new black card is released.
@Worm - its pretty simple. Shocklands allow for a fairly easy splash of 1 or 2 colors. As you've said yourself, the red splash is already proven to be a solid choice. The black splash is simply for necrotic sliver and drawing cards off nihil spellbomb for value. Both cards for the black splash are very generic and very useful against all the normal routes for disrupting the emeria engine.
Well I was VERY clear that I was talking about when I was playing mono-white, so there was no splash, since mono means "one". Eventually I moved from mono-white to splash red, which worked better for me, but I was not talking about that deck since it runs more than one color.
Ghost quarter isn't played, period. Tec edge sees play as a 1-of in some zoo lists and in gifts control. That's it.
I understand that you feel like your personal experiences on MODO define what to expect in a given meta, but the reality is that land destruction and tempo dexks in general are very underplayed right now, primarily because Zoo just crushes that strategy.
...but that is my meta, and is it not wise to build for the meta? We can all only speak from the perspective of our experience in our meta, but even if my experience contradicts that of someone else, I have the wisdom to not come off like my experience is the absolute truth.
What is your meta? Why is it more indicative of the meta? What gives you the vision to say it Ghost Quarter is not being played when I see it every day? Everything I have said on these, and the wizards forums you have trashed for the last few months, so please enlighten me on what great meta you play in that is a perfect and allows you to say what cards are played (period) so absolutely?
reread traditionally. Teachings list run a 1 of extirpate/extraction that stops the infinite life part. If they can't reccur it with proc or emeria then the life gain doesn't matter thus the whole strategy is pretty fail.
I would be the happiest pilot in the world if they blow their extraction on martyr. Martyr helps you not lose games. Sun titan, necrotic sliver, and ajani v are the real win conditions.
I really don't understand the point of your post, actually. Life gain is really just the white version of remand - it just buys you time to see more cards and obtain board control. Extirpating martyr is like extirpating remand - sure, it's annoying, but there are much juicier targets to hit.
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EDIT:
To get the ball rolling, I want to say that Pithing Needle naming Martyr of Sands should completely shut them down. Is it worth using some SB slots for pithing needle?
BRG Loam Control (Assault - Loam) BRG
W Mono White Control (Martyr - Proc) W
If you have teachings, surgical extraction is the one
My errata'd commons cube
Yeah, properly built Gifts decks just wipe them out. Even Esper Gifts can join in on the fun with the EE pile (with Noxious Revival instead of LftL), then the Iona-Unburial Rites pile.
...Or you can just play combo like UR Storm, Ad Nauseam-Angel's Grace, Exarch Twin, or Melira Pod and pray their sideboard options don't kill you Games 2-3.
Def a tough on the draw when they drop that turn 1 Martyr.
I also have a the worst games against living end.
:symwr:BorosBGR Living End(Primer) W Soul Sisters Tokens
UGrand Architect+Pili-Pala Infinite combo:symq::chaos:
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
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PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Leyline of Sanctity - This is the big one. You can't use gifts, hand disruption, burn to the face, or liliana's edict effect. What's worse, you can't deal with it until you either naturally draw engineered explosives (and have the mana base to get 4 sunburst counters on it...), or you prepare for it with enchantment removal out of the sideboard.
Ensnaring Bridge - Criminally underplayed in general, this thing buys so much time that it's relatively easy for MWC to reach the late-game, which usually means emeria recurring martys, sun titans, necrotic slivers, etc. at which point you can't compete with that board state.
With that said, here are a couple cards that actually present some big problems for MWC -
Rain of Gore - 'nuff said. Watch people squirm when they play kitchen finks.
Tectonic Edge + Crucible of Worlds/Life from the Loam. The big thing MWC lacks is card draw, which means it's incredibly difficult for MWC to find an answer for the Modern format's wasteland lock. It's gotten to the point where I run 4 nihil spellbombs in my MWC sideboard just so I can deal with this line of attack from Gifts control lists.
Ajani Vengeant - Another criminally underplayed card, and one that Zoo players should be eyeballing over Elspeth or Gideon. Stick this guy with a spell pierce in hand? Grats on the game win, bro.
Countermagic - Seriously, cryptic command and remand are pretty good against a deck trying to play enough tax effects to get to the late-game. Spell Pierce is the usual suspect for Zoo, since it's a minimal tempo investment that usually buys them 2 turns against wrath effects. But remand is also a pain the butt for MWC, since it really can't afford to get time walked against any kind of pressure.
Generally, graveyard hate is also pretty solid, as are Jester's Cap effects, simply because MWC doesn't have a ton of win conditions.
This is true of some control decks but not all. Straight permission simply loses to MWC. If the MWC player can get Emeria online, no amount of permission can stop those plays.
When I play MWC, I have the hardest time dealing with gifts-rock decks that retrace raven's crime, worm haverst, etc.
BRG Loam Control (Assault - Loam) BRG
W Mono White Control (Martyr - Proc) W
All lifegain does is delay the inevitable. When will people ever learn this?
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
The most basic weak point of MWC is the "mono-white" aspect, which is why many of us that started out with mono-white have started splashing or even building control decks around Vengeant. If the deck you're facing is mono-white find ways to hit it where it is weak, like card draw (and CA in general), mana accel.
beast89: I really cannot understand where you are coming from. Permission wrecked my MWC deck because I was never able to get any of my prison/bridge/hexproof type permanents on the battlefield, so I could get beat by fairly small things. When I was piloting MWC it was not at all unusual for the first 5-7 permanent spells I try to cast to be countered an/or bounced. It can be very difficult to put pressure on your opponent when the only thing you are doing it with is land (and maybe the Leyline you dropped turn 0).
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Hmmm... maybe we're talking about different match-ups. But I have found that when facing permission decks, if he counters my spell, it's one for one and we're somewhat even. Except not really. Because I'm stocking up my graveyard with creatures that I can recur. My main goal is to get Emeria + 7 plains onto the battlefield and then my victory is pretty much inevitable.
Plus, if you use your low cmc spells, you can draw out his counters. Like, play Martyr, get it countered. Play Serra, get it countered. Now he's tapped out, play proclamation and watch him cry.
Also, I run 3x Grand Abolisher in my SB. Although it's quite difficult to get it into play against permission, I use it as a way of drawing out counters.
BRG Loam Control (Assault - Loam) BRG
W Mono White Control (Martyr - Proc) W
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
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PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Ok, you're right. The tempo decks are a much more difficult match-up. But even those, if you can sneak a martyr or two through the counter-magic and try to survive up until you either get Emeria online or can start forecasting your martyrs ...
BRG Loam Control (Assault - Loam) BRG
W Mono White Control (Martyr - Proc) W
idiot life is what the archetype was called in extended.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
With Martyr (when I was running mono-white) I would rather use the slots for actual control cards, or draw, or mana ramp. I like Martyr in a dedicated deck like Soul Sisters, but not in traditional MWC.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
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PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Then you're doing it wrong. Martyr is good in every matchup save for true combo, aka splinter twin. Every other "combo" deck doesn't even create a degenerative board state, so the lifegain is actually relevant. 15 life against past in flames actually buys you 2-3 turns (not that you're going to win game 1), which is extremely important when you're digging for a nihil spellbomb or a thorn of amethyst.
Secondly, emeria trumps just about every other late-game board plan in modern. It's EXTREMELY difficult for most decks to handle a recurring martyr, let alone a recurring sun titan or necrotic sliver.
martyr isn't good against true control either. Mostly because the life gain will only happen once, but traditionally control decks don't really care about life totals unless one is "infinite."
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Maybe you need to re-look at the meta. Nakamura's 4 color control list has punishing fire, kitchen finks, worm harvest, and eternal witness as win-conditions. A MWC list using martyrs would sooner be afraid of decking in the face of those win conditions.
Care to list any proven competitive control lists that render martyr irrelevant?
@Worm - its pretty simple. Shocklands allow for a fairly easy splash of 1 or 2 colors. As you've said yourself, the red splash is already proven to be a solid choice. The black splash is simply for necrotic sliver and drawing cards off nihil spellbomb for value. Both cards for the black splash are very generic and very useful against all the normal routes for disrupting the emeria engine. Ghost quarter isn't played, period. Tec edge sees play as a 1-of in some zoo lists and in gifts control. That's it.
I understand that you feel like your personal experiences on MODO define what to expect in a given meta, but the reality is that land destruction and tempo dexks in general are very underplayed right now, primarily because Zoo just crushes that strategy.
reread traditionally. Teachings list run a 1 of extirpate/extraction that stops the infinite life part. If they can't reccur it with proc or emeria then the life gain doesn't matter thus the whole strategy is pretty fail.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
1. Have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
2. Stubbornly argue for at least 1 page of posts.
3. Regurgitate things you read on Starcitygames or Channelfireball.
4. Hate all netdeckers
5. Claim your 2nd place FNM deck broke the format and Delver is not even that good.
6. Tell everybody that MBC is coming back every time a new black card is released.
...but that is my meta, and is it not wise to build for the meta? We can all only speak from the perspective of our experience in our meta, but even if my experience contradicts that of someone else, I have the wisdom to not come off like my experience is the absolute truth.
What is your meta? Why is it more indicative of the meta? What gives you the vision to say it Ghost Quarter is not being played when I see it every day? Everything I have said on these, and the wizards forums you have trashed for the last few months, so please enlighten me on what great meta you play in that is a perfect and allows you to say what cards are played (period) so absolutely?
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
I would be the happiest pilot in the world if they blow their extraction on martyr. Martyr helps you not lose games. Sun titan, necrotic sliver, and ajani v are the real win conditions.
I really don't understand the point of your post, actually. Life gain is really just the white version of remand - it just buys you time to see more cards and obtain board control. Extirpating martyr is like extirpating remand - sure, it's annoying, but there are much juicier targets to hit.