Yeah, it's pretty sad. The last time I sold to them off their buylist they lowered their prices after arrival (again), so I had a big off about how that violates people's trust. Chris then went on a tirade about how it's the most fair thing to do for the buyer, and he even had the audacity to say that they often both lower and RAISE buy prices upon arrival, based on where the market is. I mean, seriously? Would they ever in a million years give you more than they advertised out of the kindness of their hearts?
Unfortunately this is the email I received from White Lion Games this afternoon after they said they would buy my Hero of Bladehold 4x for $41.50 instead of the original $45.50.
(My name), on order number 1 you had one card adjusted and that card was massively out of bounds of reasonable it was adjusted only an amount to still
be where it was bought the highest of any dealer online by a lot actually. order number 2 you had two cards not mint, those cards were bought from you
still so as to not waste money of yours on such a small order shipping damaged cards back to you, again we ate the situation there, also two cards were
adjusted still to be the highest buy price of all dealers. order number 3 after flat out ACCUSING us of stealing cards you sent incorrectly that were going
to be returned we adjusted the buy price to be TWO DOLLARS EACH higher than anyone anywhere and literally are losing money buying them from you
and again an email chastising us for doing exactly what we advertise that is shown to you twice, during checkout AND in your initial email with our service
address.
DUE TO FLUCTUATIONS IN PRICE, MARKET AND
INVENTORY, SELL TO US IS AN ESTIMATE ONLY.
THE BUYLIST IS AN ESTIMATE NOT A GUARANTEE.
YOUR OFFER PRICE WILL BE COMMUNICATED
FOR YOU TO CONSIDER AFTER YOUR PACKAGE ARRIVES.
You agreed to these terms of service 3 times and after yelling at us about stealing, now you are screaming that we are horrible people, seriously.
Please refund the two prior payments made to you, every card you have sold us will be returned, I'm SORRY we bought all your cards higher than every
other dealer Brian, I'm sorry we price match up and down on our buy list and STILL beat every dealer almost every time as a way of thanking our customers
My suggestion if you deal with other card shops is to understand that we are human beings on the end of your nasty emails not robots and we also don't own
the USPS if you don't think they lose thousands upon thousands of packages every day please stop using the mail, because they do. You would do well to at
least try to understand that when you are frustrated talking to people like this is not the way, and maybe more importantly, we are probably already frustrated for you
there really isn't anything you can say that we aren't already analyzing ourselves during day to day business, you could voice your concerns nicely and ask a question
or two without flat accusation, it would help.
Most importantly, and this is a big one, if you are dealing with issues check the things you agreed to first BEFORE you yell at people about stealing and all kinds of other things,its likely and in this case actually covered by a few simple statements. ( We adjust UP and DOWN for industry standards and communicate offers to you that you are within your right to speak to us about, plenty of people do daily. Send your package WITH TRACKING so there Is no mistake as to its whereabouts ) These items exist in our terms upon checkout because we deal with USPS and a constantly changing market every day and we KNOW how fickle both are.
Good luck
Chris Connelly - CEO
White Lion Games.Com
a division of
SunTwo Corp.
817 710 5003 - STORE
[email]customers@whiteliongames.com[/email]
As far as the order number 3 went, I said the following in an email:
This is the receipt from the post office that I kept just in case this sort of thing happened. The letter sent to CA was received last Thursday. You completed the transaction with the small buy order yesterday.
My logic when dealing with the 4x Hero of Bladehold comes to 3 possible scenarios: 1) It got lost in the mail. I find this unlikely as the probability of getting 1 but not the other is mind-boggling low. 2) You got it but someone who works there lost it. Probably but once again unlikely since I've done it a few times in the past but it's rare. I could see someone opening both, storing the cards, and only paying me for one. I hope this isn't the case. 3) Someone you work with stole the cards. I used to work for a comic book store when I was a teenager and I've seen people attempt to steal things worth less that 4x Hero of Bladehold. Sadly, if you have multiple people working for you I tend to lean towards this case.
The fact I sent this last week on Monday leads me to believe that if you cannot find the 4x Hero's by Friday, I will have to believe that something is very wrong on your end. I have proof I sent both. I have proof you got one but not the other. I appreciate the fact that you are extremely fast with your emails and helping people however I find this particular buy order issue a fiasco.
I will be contacting you on Friday to make sure either you have them or you don't.
I don't see how this is yelling nor chastising as I am trying to figure out scenarios for lost cards. The worst I get is when I say I am "leaning" towards the stealing due to a previous experience I had in the industry.
He then accuses me of screaming, nasty emails, not understanding that mail is lost on a daily basis even though I run a small business through eBay, and then finally not understanding the terms of the agreement on which I sold to him after I agreed on the $42. Want to see the nasty email? Here it is ...
$42 is fine.
However I have to say I have never been more disappointed in a ccg based store in my life. Last time I will ever sell to you guys. 3 buy orders all received within 7 days. Every time you shaved off money where as every other respectable store honors their sell price if shipped within 7 days. Thats right shipped not processed I can understand bad condition however 2 days after your boss emailed me saying you got them they were still the same buy price. Now they are less. I even screenshotted it because I knew you would pull the same routine. Wait a while. Drop the buy prices. Buy for less than advertised.
Guess all of the bad Internet stories posted on forums about you guys were true.
Very disappointed.
At the age of 29, going on 30, being in the industry for over a decade, and being an ex-Pro Tour player, I have seen it all with Magic. Sure I got mad due to top decks during my early teen years, who hasn't, but I have been nothing but persistent with these guys issuing no attitude whatsoever due to the nature I was still "in business with them".
This company is the definition of "unethical practices".
After an email providing a binding contract for my Hero of Bladeholds for $42 they are now declining it. And trying to ship back everything I sold them in the past for their money back. This is hilarious and basically impossible to do as there is no evidence that the cards returned will be exact ones I sold them and the fact that they have no grounds to return previously bought cards via electronic contract and ask for their money back is just ... absurd. Am I wrong in this as they basically already completed the transaction days ago?
I have contacted the BBB about this company and will suggest to any and all MTG casual and serious players that you should never, ever relate to this business.
Also I have to say, as an ex-Pro Tour player, this is one of the reasons why I left the game in the first place. Just a shame I have to experience this as I came back.
I also wish for MTG Salvation to sticky this thread as a warning to everyone about this store.
Now here is where it gets really shady because after you complete your buy order they recommend you use tracking/insurance on your sell orders since they are not responsible for lost mail. I can understand that buy never had I had this issue before ... and they also state that they have the power to change prices, i.e. if they get too many of a certain card. This is where I take issue as this practice is highly abusive and extremely profitable for the store.
I know they are pretty shady but this is common enough in the market that I can't fault them for this type of terms and conditions. They use Bidwicket and I haven't had a store that used multiple platforms to buy cards not use a similar terms and conditions.
I know they are pretty shady but this is common enough in the market that I can't fault them for this type of terms and conditions. They use Bidwicket and I haven't had a store that used multiple platforms to buy cards not use a similar terms and conditions.
Except most stores know customers hate this and only do it on the rare occasions when a card gets banned or something. WLG seems to do it almost every time. I would never sell to them again, even if they have the best offer on the market, because I know that offer is a lie.
I know they are pretty shady but this is common enough in the market that I can't fault them for this type of terms and conditions. They use Bidwicket and I haven't had a store that used multiple platforms to buy cards not use a similar terms and conditions.
I honestly can understand the changes in price as I trade a lot and often and after SCG events, GPs, PTs, etc., the prices on certain cards change drastically. The problem I have is they do it every time to shave dollars to get an even larger profit in the long term and you have no evidence if it is true or not. The problem I also have is they never confirm your buy list order getting there therefore they can sit on it and wait for the market to correct itself therefore there is no upside whatsoever for a seller to use this method.
Like I said, shaving dollars only helps the business economically and destroys the reputation after repeated offenses.
There is too much evidence dating way back about this store and it's unethical practices in the store's entire business dealings whether is it buying or selling.
Hope this is a lesson learned to everyone out there. Never, ever sell your cards if the subject uses those terms of agreement with a muddied past.
Refund the previous two payments immediately as your cards will be returned to you, you clearly listened to nothing I said about how you speak to people.
Also if you understood anything about contract law at all you would understand that previous to an offer a "buylist" does not constitute an offer it is an estimate
and that information is clearly stated on our website as is another statement:
We reserve the right to buy or sell items at prices that make sense to us, if there is a price error or a sales overage in our selling to you or buying from you we will contact you and offer you one of two solutions: A. Refund in full and cancellation of your order, or B. A possible discount or alternate solution ( Please understand we will always attempt to make our customers happy in any case we can within reason, however 3rd party sites that do not offer real-time inventory we are not liable for.) we will try to provide the reason or type of error that occurred. If you require B2B transactions please contact us directly as our primary focus is B2C, orders placed for the purposes of profiting due to our direct loss will be cancelled.
These terms you have also in writing agreed to via your acceptance and sending of materials to us.
Since you have chosen to further inflame the situation and lack the fortitude to apologize for not following the rules AND chastise us for YOUR lack of following the rules then veil your statements under the "scenario building" guise
we are hereby terminating this relationship, permanently, we will not do business with you any longer period, you had an opportunity to have a real conversation and make any valid points you might have had, by first accepting where
you may have gone astray, but as with everything and nearly everyone in life your pride won out, these emails, FYI, are going to be forwarded to dealernet which is the network of dealers that all dealers subscribe to
so every dealer in the united states that buys cards online knows you and how you work.
Instead of treating us like people you choose to talk to us like we have the time to try to personally go after people card by card LOL, I assure you we do not, nor would we want to.
You can file with the BBB, you can spend 47.50 to file a small claims lawsuit, we won't even show up I promise, you can get a summary judgement, you can have an authorize to pay issued, then
when you have showed up 55 times to court to get a payment judgement I can have our lawyer show up and invalidate everything you talked about by showing that you entered into an agreement
that you yourself invalidated 5 seconds after you entered it in multiple ways.
I always wish in this point of situations people just understood that if they acted like people were human beings things would be smoother, your mother would never want you to act this way, attempting
to take advantage of people to get by, trying to trick companies into paying you unfairly, THEN calling THEM unethical, you should be ashamed of yourself.
Explain how in the world you think us paying you higher than ANY DEALER ANYWHERE by a lot actually is cause to be fussed at, accused of stealing and general asshattery that you have performed here ?
Seriously, whatever horse you are standing on, get down before you fall down.
This is the latest email that I got from the CEO of WLG.
This has gone from ridiculous to just insane.
He is demanding 1) I return the money from previous sell orders to them that are 13+ days old. 2) I apologize to them via admitting I was somehow at fault therefore giving them a legal out 3) Get off my high horse and other derogatory remarks ...
If this last email doesn't prove what type of people they are then I don't know what will. I mean, he even mentions my mother ... who the heck does that?
You buy a playset of something for 40$. By the time you get it, a week or so later, the card is down a bit. You e-mail the seller and say you overpaid, considering the market fluctuates and all, and demand 5$ back.
Unfortunately, its important for everyone who buys and sells from a business (in this case online) to be aware of that store's policies (all of them). We as customers, expect a certain level of standardization among such policies and a certain level of "reasonable" customer service for a business to have. Unfortunately, there are plenty of online businesses that take advantage of such policies to make things as favorable for them as possible.
Personally. I fell that a listed buy price and an accepted buy order at that price, should be honored. Period. To me there is no reasonable excuse for that for a true business that honors customer service above all else (As all businesses should) to not do that. Just as an online store should honor a sell price and not use any excuse in the book to cancel an order if something goes up. In the end its up to us as customers to see which businesses abuse their customers with their actions and their policies and let others know to avoid them.
You buy a playset of something for 40$. By the time you get it, a week or so later, the card is down a bit. You e-mail the seller and say you overpaid, considering the market fluctuates and all, and demand 5$ back.
Ridiculous, right? Hrm...
Imagine this.
I meet you in a card store. You want to trade your cards to me say your 4x A for 4x B of mine which I say I have at home and will bring next week. We agree on the terms and I say I will meet you next week at FNM, you then give me those 4x A ...
However, I don't show up until 2 weeks later after the assigned date where now I need even more cards to make the trade fair since the price went down on those 4x As. You then agree to that even though you say you are disappointed. Then I decline the trade due to your "disappointment" and the fact that time has passed, etc. And now your 4x As are not in the Mint condition where it once previously was nor do you know if the cards you are getting back are yours.
That is what it was like ...
Like I said previously, I can understand fluctuations in the market since I operate under the same conditions as most businesses do. What I can't understand nor comprehend is the business trying to spoon feed me a malarkey.
April 1st they had a need of 18x Hero of Bladehold @ $11.33.
I shipped it on the 2nd of April aka Monday morning.
April 13th they had a need of 18x Hero of Bladehold @ $11.33.
April 18th they had a need of 16x Hero of Bladehold @ $10.33.
April 23rd they have a need of 13x Hero of Bladehold @ $8.74.
That's a market price reduction of 23% due to time in 10 days. They didn't process it for 5 days even though they instantly processed my previous lesser order which was shipped at the same time. So why the 5 day wait for processing? Why did it take a phone call and 3 emails to confirm my cards were somehow mistakenly in a pile to be returned without being processed? Why did all of his emails sound defensive and have him routinely use the ToS as his backing argument?
Also you cannot demand money back after 3 days once the transaction has occurred. It's the law, you should read into that.
It's pretty simple. White Lion Games is owned by a crook who is willing to commit fraud again and again because he assumes that the average Magic player will be too lazy to fight over 10 dollars here and 20 dollars there. He is delusional. He is getting greedier and more confidant with each transaction and it will eventually come back to bite him.
I'm a page or two back, but here's an update... The eBay case for 270$ is now closed and I have that money back again. Basically, he kept trying to get me to agree to let him send the "damaged" cards back for a full refund. I repeatedly asked him to tell me which cards were damaged. He couldn't, of course, because the cards he claimed were damaged had nothing to do with the sale on eBay. He eventually stopped responding and when I escalated the case to eBay customer support, he closed it (although he promised to take it to his credit card company and Paypal).
The Paypal case for 250$ is still open. The gist here is that I don't qualify for seller protection since he sent the payment as a gift. When he sent the payment, I didn't realize it was sent as a gift and when I asked him about the lack of a shipping address, he said not to worry about it and to just ship to the same address. It is my belief that the only reason he would do this is with the intent of eventually filing with his credit card company that his package was never received. He intended all along to steal from me. Luckily, I had delivery and signature confirmation, as well as documentation proving that he received the cards. Hopefully his credit card company will side with me, but there is no guarantee. It is possible that he could intentionally and remorselessly steal 250$ from me.
Since he's ready to do that and willing to go so far as to commit fraud with his credit card company, I doubt that Chris has any reservations with "misplacing packages" and "re-evaluating buylists."
I just filed a complaint against White Lion Games on the BBB myself. It's actually pretty easy and doesn't take up that much time. I'd recommend anyone else with negative experiences to take the time to do so. They even have a category for "Advertisement - Bait and Switch."
This is the latest email that I got from the CEO of WLG.
This has gone from ridiculous to just insane.
He is demanding 1) I return the money from previous sell orders to them that are 13+ days old. 2) I apologize to them via admitting I was somehow at fault therefore giving them a legal out 3) Get off my high horse and other derogatory remarks ...
If this last email doesn't prove what type of people they are then I don't know what will. I mean, he even mentions my mother ... who the heck does that?
Probably just stating the obvious, but... No refund until you have the cards in your hands. If that is in fact the route you are planning to take.
Sad to hear all the complaints against WLG. I buy cards from them and although shipping is sometimes slower than others they have fulfilled the orders.
Since this is market street, a couple recommendations on the practicality of these types of stores:
Standard legal cards generally go down over time. New sets plummet the fastest after release. A period of 7-10 days for a new rare to be shipped, received, and resold is devastating for secondary market dealers.
This will always pose ethical challenges on honoring stated/predicted prices vs prices when the card is restocked and sold.
Personal experience has shown the ~17% take on eBay or 0% sales lots through this forum to be the best way to sell cards. Go eBay if you need the money now, go MTGS if you have time and think the cards will hold value.
Both of these not only have offered me the best return, they generally put the seller in the commanding seat, as we get paid first and honor the deal second. Personally I like this more because it's also real players getting the cards (usually) and removes secondary market inflation due to dealer cuts.
With WLG it's not that I wouldn't deal business with this store because of the complaints here, but because of their policy. It's extremely biased towards the store and very error/subjective prone. Like kids grading their own tests in school, constant temptation to err on the side of the store. Not a good setup for balanced trade.
Well WLG is never getting my business. Ever. This thread convinced me, sometimes I've seen their price as the lowest but I just shrugged it off and bought from a more reputable source. Sounds like the owners are a bunch of scam artists that have no qualms about ripping people off. The most out of place thing for me was the buylist adjustment bull****. Seriously, so you would raise the price after agreeing to pay a lower price for card X? That doesn't sound like any dealer in the entire game, sounds like you're just using this to lower the price you pay on a card. The business they're running is a complete joke, with some of the worst customer service I've ever seen as evidenced by this thread.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Sad to hear all the complaints against WLG. I buy cards from them and although shipping is sometimes slower than others they have fulfilled the orders.
Since this is market street, a couple recommendations on the practicality of these types of stores:
Standard legal cards generally go down over time. New sets plummet the fastest after release. A period of 7-10 days for a new rare to be shipped, received, and resold is devastating for secondary market dealers.
This will always pose ethical challenges on honoring stated/predicted prices vs prices when the card is restocked and sold.
Personal experience has shown the ~17% take on eBay or 0% sales lots through this forum to be the best way to sell cards. Go eBay if you need the money now, go MTGS if you have time and think the cards will hold value.
Both of these not only have offered me the best return, they generally put the seller in the commanding seat, as we get paid first and honor the deal second. Personally I like this more because it's also real players getting the cards (usually) and removes secondary market inflation due to dealer cuts.
With WLG it's not that I wouldn't deal business with this store because of the complaints here, but because of their policy. It's extremely biased towards the store and very error/subjective prone. Like kids grading their own tests in school, constant temptation to err on the side of the store. Not a good setup for balanced trade.
It can only pose an ethical challenge if you allow it to. If you want to play the pre-sale/pre-buy game, you should understand that there are rewards and risks. Sometimes you get burned when you speculate on pricing and sometimes you come out way ahead. Behavior like this from a store that passes itself off as reputable is inappropriate and unacceptable.
I don't see how anyone would still want to deal with WLG after reading this thread. After all these horror stories, does WLG ever read MTGS? They will have lots of explaining to do here.
If the store owner says that I can't trade in the premises, I'll just go outside. If he says that I can't trade within 10m of his premises, I'll go to 11 meters. If he says that he doesn't want to see me trading, I will put a basket over his head and continue trading.
Yes, he's a local legend. He's only known to take his clothes off before he goes into the Ladies' Lockerroom. Nobody knows what he does in there because he's invisible, but it's almost certainly tons of masturbating.
I don't see how anyone would still want to deal with WLG after reading this thread. After all these horror stories, does WLG ever read MTGS? They will have lots of explaining to do here.
Have to mention an update.
After everything that has happened within 30 days, they paid me ~$0.50 less than my initial sell price for $44 and some change, which I must say I would of done regardless.
It's nice to see that after everything they paid me.
However, I cannot recommend this store to anyone I know who has the capacity to breathe since it only took me about a dozen plus emails, contacting the BBB, reading about commerce law in Texas, and several phone calls to get paid.
Well, for my own update... despite me having signature confirmation (as well as the chat logs), the credit card company ruled in his favor that he never received the package. So now PayPal is coming to me for the $250. PayPal has refused to offer me seller protection because when WLG sent the payment, he sent it as a "gift."
It's my belief that he intended to steal the $250 from the start, fully realizing that his credit card would likely side with him and by sending the payment as a gift I wouldn't get any protection. Even though I'd win a lawsuit against him because of overwhelming evidence, it would cost well over the $250 just for attorney and court fees (and likely his credit card company knows it).
I've ordered from there once before and never had a problem. Am I the only who never had a "bad" experience from them? I've ordered from them recently, so if something happens, what should I do?
I've ordered from there once before and never had a problem. Am I the only who never had a "bad" experience from them? I've ordered from them recently, so if something happens, what should I do?
Well, maybe someone from TX can help me out here; do you need some sort of vendors licence to run a MTG shop? Regardless if its from your house or not. Even if you dont, If these claims of fraud are legitimate, the only real way to stop it is with some sort of direct intervention in the form of the police.
I've ordered from there once before and never had a problem. Am I the only who never had a "bad" experience from them? I've ordered from them recently, so if something happens, what should I do?
I had previously bought from them several times and hadn't had any issues. I think that in general they restrict themselves to just screwing over people who sell cards to them. I imagine it's easier to go unpunished that way since there are so many buyer-protection systems set in place. (Although I wouldn't expect great customer service if the order comes back wrong.)
Quote from "Mr0bv" »
Well, maybe someone from TX can help me out here; do you need some sort of vendors licence to run a MTG shop? Regardless if its from your house or not. Even if you dont, If these claims of fraud are legitimate, the only real way to stop it is with some sort of direct intervention in the form of the police.
I'm still waiting for the IC3 to get back to me, but they are supposed to contact relevant local authorities once they've reviewed my report. I've also contacted sites like TCGplayer, Bidiwicket, FindMagicCards, etc to inform them about White Lion's shady practices.
I had previously bought from them several times and hadn't had any issues. I think that in general they restrict themselves to just screwing over people who sell cards to them. I imagine it's easier to go unpunished that way since there are so many buyer-protection systems set in place. (Although I wouldn't expect great customer service if the order comes back wrong.
What a coincidence, I was about to write here that I got what I ordered, once again. The shipping is slow as a rock, but it's still there.
I bought cards from them last Friday and they got here on Monday, and they were in near mint condition. The only problem I had with them was when I ordered $60 worth of cards from their website and it didn't give me free shipping. I called them and asked, and they fixed it, but they didn't refund me the shipping cost. Instead they offered to give me free shipping the next time I ordered cards from them.
At the night of the 20th, I hopped onto WLG and picked up 4x prismatic omens (3x NM english, 1x NM chinese) for fairly cheap. I wanted to speculate because valakut was unbanned in modern. Anywho, I received them and 1 prismatic is definitely NM-, SP+, and the other is SP-/HP+. Definitely bummed. Shot them an email and they said theyd cover shipping back and a full refund. I stated that omens had gone up and I really needed NM copies. He replied to tell me that if they shot up then I got a deal and it shouldn't be a big issue...
I'm shocked to be honest. Dealt with them MANY times before with no issues.
As far as the order number 3 went, I said the following in an email:
I don't see how this is yelling nor chastising as I am trying to figure out scenarios for lost cards. The worst I get is when I say I am "leaning" towards the stealing due to a previous experience I had in the industry.
He then accuses me of screaming, nasty emails, not understanding that mail is lost on a daily basis even though I run a small business through eBay, and then finally not understanding the terms of the agreement on which I sold to him after I agreed on the $42. Want to see the nasty email? Here it is ...
At the age of 29, going on 30, being in the industry for over a decade, and being an ex-Pro Tour player, I have seen it all with Magic. Sure I got mad due to top decks during my early teen years, who hasn't, but I have been nothing but persistent with these guys issuing no attitude whatsoever due to the nature I was still "in business with them".
This company is the definition of "unethical practices".
After an email providing a binding contract for my Hero of Bladeholds for $42 they are now declining it. And trying to ship back everything I sold them in the past for their money back. This is hilarious and basically impossible to do as there is no evidence that the cards returned will be exact ones I sold them and the fact that they have no grounds to return previously bought cards via electronic contract and ask for their money back is just ... absurd. Am I wrong in this as they basically already completed the transaction days ago?
I have contacted the BBB about this company and will suggest to any and all MTG casual and serious players that you should never, ever relate to this business.
Also I have to say, as an ex-Pro Tour player, this is one of the reasons why I left the game in the first place. Just a shame I have to experience this as I came back.
I also wish for MTG Salvation to sticky this thread as a warning to everyone about this store.
Thank you.
I know they are pretty shady but this is common enough in the market that I can't fault them for this type of terms and conditions. They use Bidwicket and I haven't had a store that used multiple platforms to buy cards not use a similar terms and conditions.
Except most stores know customers hate this and only do it on the rare occasions when a card gets banned or something. WLG seems to do it almost every time. I would never sell to them again, even if they have the best offer on the market, because I know that offer is a lie.
I honestly can understand the changes in price as I trade a lot and often and after SCG events, GPs, PTs, etc., the prices on certain cards change drastically. The problem I have is they do it every time to shave dollars to get an even larger profit in the long term and you have no evidence if it is true or not. The problem I also have is they never confirm your buy list order getting there therefore they can sit on it and wait for the market to correct itself therefore there is no upside whatsoever for a seller to use this method.
Like I said, shaving dollars only helps the business economically and destroys the reputation after repeated offenses.
There is too much evidence dating way back about this store and it's unethical practices in the store's entire business dealings whether is it buying or selling.
Hope this is a lesson learned to everyone out there. Never, ever sell your cards if the subject uses those terms of agreement with a muddied past.
This is the latest email that I got from the CEO of WLG.
This has gone from ridiculous to just insane.
He is demanding 1) I return the money from previous sell orders to them that are 13+ days old. 2) I apologize to them via admitting I was somehow at fault therefore giving them a legal out 3) Get off my high horse and other derogatory remarks ...
If this last email doesn't prove what type of people they are then I don't know what will. I mean, he even mentions my mother ... who the heck does that?
You buy a playset of something for 40$. By the time you get it, a week or so later, the card is down a bit. You e-mail the seller and say you overpaid, considering the market fluctuates and all, and demand 5$ back.
Ridiculous, right? Hrm...
Personally. I fell that a listed buy price and an accepted buy order at that price, should be honored. Period. To me there is no reasonable excuse for that for a true business that honors customer service above all else (As all businesses should) to not do that. Just as an online store should honor a sell price and not use any excuse in the book to cancel an order if something goes up. In the end its up to us as customers to see which businesses abuse their customers with their actions and their policies and let others know to avoid them.
Imagine this.
I meet you in a card store. You want to trade your cards to me say your 4x A for 4x B of mine which I say I have at home and will bring next week. We agree on the terms and I say I will meet you next week at FNM, you then give me those 4x A ...
However, I don't show up until 2 weeks later after the assigned date where now I need even more cards to make the trade fair since the price went down on those 4x As. You then agree to that even though you say you are disappointed. Then I decline the trade due to your "disappointment" and the fact that time has passed, etc. And now your 4x As are not in the Mint condition where it once previously was nor do you know if the cards you are getting back are yours.
That is what it was like ...
Like I said previously, I can understand fluctuations in the market since I operate under the same conditions as most businesses do. What I can't understand nor comprehend is the business trying to spoon feed me a malarkey.
April 1st they had a need of 18x Hero of Bladehold @ $11.33.
I shipped it on the 2nd of April aka Monday morning.
April 13th they had a need of 18x Hero of Bladehold @ $11.33.
April 18th they had a need of 16x Hero of Bladehold @ $10.33.
April 23rd they have a need of 13x Hero of Bladehold @ $8.74.
That's a market price reduction of 23% due to time in 10 days. They didn't process it for 5 days even though they instantly processed my previous lesser order which was shipped at the same time. So why the 5 day wait for processing? Why did it take a phone call and 3 emails to confirm my cards were somehow mistakenly in a pile to be returned without being processed? Why did all of his emails sound defensive and have him routinely use the ToS as his backing argument?
Also you cannot demand money back after 3 days once the transaction has occurred. It's the law, you should read into that.
I'm a page or two back, but here's an update... The eBay case for 270$ is now closed and I have that money back again. Basically, he kept trying to get me to agree to let him send the "damaged" cards back for a full refund. I repeatedly asked him to tell me which cards were damaged. He couldn't, of course, because the cards he claimed were damaged had nothing to do with the sale on eBay. He eventually stopped responding and when I escalated the case to eBay customer support, he closed it (although he promised to take it to his credit card company and Paypal).
The Paypal case for 250$ is still open. The gist here is that I don't qualify for seller protection since he sent the payment as a gift. When he sent the payment, I didn't realize it was sent as a gift and when I asked him about the lack of a shipping address, he said not to worry about it and to just ship to the same address. It is my belief that the only reason he would do this is with the intent of eventually filing with his credit card company that his package was never received. He intended all along to steal from me. Luckily, I had delivery and signature confirmation, as well as documentation proving that he received the cards. Hopefully his credit card company will side with me, but there is no guarantee. It is possible that he could intentionally and remorselessly steal 250$ from me.
Since he's ready to do that and willing to go so far as to commit fraud with his credit card company, I doubt that Chris has any reservations with "misplacing packages" and "re-evaluating buylists."
I just filed a complaint against White Lion Games on the BBB myself. It's actually pretty easy and doesn't take up that much time. I'd recommend anyone else with negative experiences to take the time to do so. They even have a category for "Advertisement - Bait and Switch."
Probably just stating the obvious, but... No refund until you have the cards in your hands. If that is in fact the route you are planning to take.
Since this is market street, a couple recommendations on the practicality of these types of stores:
With WLG it's not that I wouldn't deal business with this store because of the complaints here, but because of their policy. It's extremely biased towards the store and very error/subjective prone. Like kids grading their own tests in school, constant temptation to err on the side of the store. Not a good setup for balanced trade.
Currently Playing:
Retired
It can only pose an ethical challenge if you allow it to. If you want to play the pre-sale/pre-buy game, you should understand that there are rewards and risks. Sometimes you get burned when you speculate on pricing and sometimes you come out way ahead. Behavior like this from a store that passes itself off as reputable is inappropriate and unacceptable.
Have to mention an update.
After everything that has happened within 30 days, they paid me ~$0.50 less than my initial sell price for $44 and some change, which I must say I would of done regardless.
It's nice to see that after everything they paid me.
However, I cannot recommend this store to anyone I know who has the capacity to breathe since it only took me about a dozen plus emails, contacting the BBB, reading about commerce law in Texas, and several phone calls to get paid.
/caseclosed
It's my belief that he intended to steal the $250 from the start, fully realizing that his credit card would likely side with him and by sending the payment as a gift I wouldn't get any protection. Even though I'd win a lawsuit against him because of overwhelming evidence, it would cost well over the $250 just for attorney and court fees (and likely his credit card company knows it).
Also, can we get this stickied?
Well, maybe someone from TX can help me out here; do you need some sort of vendors licence to run a MTG shop? Regardless if its from your house or not. Even if you dont, If these claims of fraud are legitimate, the only real way to stop it is with some sort of direct intervention in the form of the police.
WUBEsper MillWUB
I had previously bought from them several times and hadn't had any issues. I think that in general they restrict themselves to just screwing over people who sell cards to them. I imagine it's easier to go unpunished that way since there are so many buyer-protection systems set in place. (Although I wouldn't expect great customer service if the order comes back wrong.)
I'm still waiting for the IC3 to get back to me, but they are supposed to contact relevant local authorities once they've reviewed my report. I've also contacted sites like TCGplayer, Bidiwicket, FindMagicCards, etc to inform them about White Lion's shady practices.
What a coincidence, I was about to write here that I got what I ordered, once again. The shipping is slow as a rock, but it's still there.
I'm shocked to be honest. Dealt with them MANY times before with no issues.
Wanted Card List: (PM me)
1 Avacyn, Angel of Hope
1 Ravages of War
1 Swords to Plowshares (Judge)
1 Land Tax (Judge)
U
1 Mana Vortex
B
1 Desolation Angel (Foil)
1 Guardian Beast
1 Contamination
R
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
G
1 Food Chain
WUBRG
1 Rohgahh of Kher Keep
X
1 Charcoal Diamond (Foil)
1 Fellwar Stone (Foil)
T
1 Temple Garden (Foil)
3 Mutavault
1 Kor Haven