First, sorry, yes I meant on site only. It never really went above 12 or 15 normally, but I meant on site. But the fact that it was onsite was kind of my point. I imagine a lot of SCG's current legacy sales are going to be on site. My point is these types of buys can benefit players to some extent for that reason.
The cards that are now super high though are usually staples. Wasteland sees so much play, as does Force. In many ways investing in these staples is very much like investing in power. They were really just undervalued before. I wish I had the time to compare the average cost of a deck like Canadian Thresh back in the day to a good legacy deck now, to a vintage deck back in the day, with say, 50% power. Then I could articulate what I mean a little clearer. I think more now, that building a legacy collection now is more like building a vintage collection was in the past, if you went for power. At any rate, you are correct about the difference in prices. Legacy is just the new vintage really. Vintage is due for a comeback though, and I expect it to happen when legacy hits the roof.
Vintage can't really "come back" unless people start sanctioning massive proxy tournaments. There just aren't enough cards for people to play without playing suboptimal decks.
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I tend to agree with this, but I will say this: it is getting harder and harder each year for people who don't have a Legacy collection to start playing Legacy. That's a problem that can't be ignored. Yes, you can't build a Legacy collection overnight, and yes it took many Legacy players a while to acquire their staples. What you're forgetting though is that they acquired said staples years ago when there was little demand for them. i.e., back when Wasteland was $12, Forces were $25, and blue dual lands were around $35-$40. Imagine trying to build the same collection from the ground up with today's current prices. You'd be better off just investing in something like power.
Loxodon Hierarch never even came close to $40 when it was at its height, but your story actually doesn't surprise me if the cards were sold on-site. It's easy to gouge players when they're desperate to fill the last few slots of their deck before registration. It happens all the time.
Everything you say is sadly true, and said many times over from SCG about abolishing the stupid reserve list. If there ever was a time to do it, it'd be now while you still got a chance to keep your players and make way for the surge of new ones.
Vintage is due for a comeback though, and I expect it to happen when legacy hits the roof.
Vintage is dead. We know that Wizards won't touch proxied tournaments with a ten-foot pole, and that is why Vintage will never actually make it back to its 2004 numbers when the format was in its prime. Every deck in Vintage needs power, and the supply of power is far too low to support a player base that is the biggest in the history of the game.
Once you have the legacy staples, crossing over to vintage as well is very simple. 10 proxy tournaments were huge for SCG, its not unreasonable to see these happening again in the future. Most of the vintage staples that aren't also played in legacy are very, very easy to get a hold of, power excluded.
And the amount of players playing the game only helps. The more people play the game in general, the more people there are going to be willing to shell out for vintage. No one is expecting vintage to crush standard popularity, but the return of a P9 series is a very real possibility, whether SCG puts it on, or someone else. Lest we forget vintage is also alive and well in Europe too.
Sword of Fire and Ice: vendor average is $60, ebay completed listings between $25 and $30
Wasteland: vendor average is $50, ebay has them between $35 and $40
Force of Will: vendor average is $70, ebay has them around $45-50
Aether Vial: vendor average is $15, ebay has them at $10
What's with the insane spiking? How did the Sword jump almost $40 in a day? Why isn't my playset of Dark Confidants now worth $over 9000?AHHHHH my brain hurts.
There is, at least in my estimation, a convergence from Standard and Vintage into Legacy. Vintage is much more cost prohibitive for new players, and Standard is starting to become cost prohibitive with Mythic rares but with the added layer of substantial depreciation of cards upon rotation. Whereas, with Legacy you have some cost barriers yet with price stability.
I think we are seeing a peak price point, but when Legacy season dies down prices may stabalize and decrease a bit, perhaps even sooner after the recent fervor is over.
At the same time, EDH is starting to pick up some steam and casual is an ever constant. Internationally, MTG and demand for older cards is escalating. In the end, and it goes without saying, simple supply and demand dictates the prices.
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I think we are seeing a peak price point, but when Legacy season dies down prices may stabalize and decrease a bit, perhaps even sooner after the recent fervor is over.
The problem is there is no "Legacy season" SCG Opens are almost every weekend. If you wanted to travel you can go to 2-3 competitive events a month.
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Current Legacy Decks
0USpiral Tide0U
UWU/W 'Miracle Top' Control UW
012 Post 0
Random Opponent: Playing against 12 Post Feels like trying to win in Yugioh with no super secret rares.
The problem is there is no "Legacy season" SCG Opens are almost every weekend. If you wanted to travel you can go to 2-3 competitive events a month.
My error, I was estimating when it typically picks up based on local trends. And as you point out, the frequency of Legacy events with SCG being the leader of the pack demonstrates the consistent growth in the format.
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Wasteland buy price is up to $33. Not sure if their sell price has been raised. I'm guessing they're narrowing their margins on it just so they can stock them.
Well, I understand the huge jumps in legacy popularity, but I was more referring to "why is there such a huge discrepancy between online vendors and actual physical selling prices?" Are vendors just trying to jump on the legacy train before it leaves? Because I could probably go buy a set of FOWs on eBay for $160 then sell them back to somewhere like Channel Fireball for $200.
Wasteland buy price is up to $33. Not sure if their sell price has been raised. I'm guessing they're narrowing their margins on it just so they can stock them.
They are sold out completely. In the next week or so It would not surprise me to see +$5 on its selling price.
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Current Legacy Decks
0USpiral Tide0U
UWU/W 'Miracle Top' Control UW
012 Post 0
Random Opponent: Playing against 12 Post Feels like trying to win in Yugioh with no super secret rares.
Well, I understand the huge jumps in legacy popularity, but I was more referring to "why is there such a huge discrepancy between online vendors and actual physical selling prices?" Are vendors just trying to jump on the legacy train before it leaves? Because I could probably go buy a set of FOWs on eBay for $160 then sell them back to somewhere like Channel Fireball for $200.
I'm not sure where you're getting $40 each from. FOWs are going for at least $50 each on Ebay, anything under that is under NM condition. (Also don't forget to include shipping)
Can we expect this trend to continue though? If there is no end to Legacy season, there's very little chance of these staples dropping in price, correct?
I'm not sure where you're getting $40 each from. FOWs are going for at least $50 each on Ebay, anything under that is under NM condition. (Also don't forget to include shipping)
Can we expect this trend to continue though? If there is no end to Legacy season, there's very little chance of these staples dropping in price, correct?
There are some peaks and valleys in price, though not usually steep as with SoFI. I could see more leveling in price after a major buying frenzie. However, as with ebay you will see more deviation from vendors with there being more competition as well as liquidation. That may explain in part some of the disparity in prices.
As time passes, I could see Legacy having some prices getting somewhat out of control, but with reprints we can expect some to keep within reason.
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I'm not sure where you're getting $40 each from. FOWs are going for at least $50 each on Ebay, anything under that is under NM condition. (Also don't forget to include shipping)
Can we expect this trend to continue though? If there is no end to Legacy season, there's very little chance of these staples dropping in price, correct?
Well, I saw the ones for $45 and playset auctions usually lose a few bucks. But still. It's a long ways from $70 a pop.
Well, I understand the huge jumps in legacy popularity, but I was more referring to "why is there such a huge discrepancy between online vendors and actual physical selling prices?" Are vendors just trying to jump on the legacy train before it leaves? Because I could probably go buy a set of FOWs on eBay for $160 then sell them back to somewhere like Channel Fireball for $200.
Judging by what Ben Bleiwiess wrote in the thread about Star City's new buylist - it sounds like dealers are running into the same issues that players run into when trying to get Legacy cards. People don't want to get rid of them easily or cheaply. Scarcity of and demand for these cards makes people want to hold out for the best deal possible when getting rid of them. Dealers right now have to pay prices close to what players are paying just to get the cards in stock. If they're paying that much, then they need to raise their prices in order to make a profit on the cards.
One, to get these hard to find cards sellers basically have to straight up pay ebay finished prices.
Two, with legacy continuing to climb in price no one wants to be left behind AND no one wants to devote a lot of time to keeping up with those prices. Think about the manpower involved in keeping up with that many prices, and how hard that is.
Since I first noticed SCG's Eternal Buy List on March 14th (just ten days ago, folks) they've already raised the prices on gobbs of cards! Check this out:
In all, not counting duplicate printings from various sets, SCG has raised it's buy price on 17 cards in 10 days! That's pretty amazing. This post is not a complaint, mind you, it's just an astonished reaction that prices and demand are moving up so quickly. I haven't since price moves like this since the first six months Legacy was seperated from Vintage. And the sad thing is, at least IMO, SCG still is sold out of all these cards!!! It boggles my mind. What are your thoughts on this, guys?
ET
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The cards that are now super high though are usually staples. Wasteland sees so much play, as does Force. In many ways investing in these staples is very much like investing in power. They were really just undervalued before. I wish I had the time to compare the average cost of a deck like Canadian Thresh back in the day to a good legacy deck now, to a vintage deck back in the day, with say, 50% power. Then I could articulate what I mean a little clearer. I think more now, that building a legacy collection now is more like building a vintage collection was in the past, if you went for power. At any rate, you are correct about the difference in prices. Legacy is just the new vintage really. Vintage is due for a comeback though, and I expect it to happen when legacy hits the roof.
Everything you say is sadly true, and said many times over from SCG about abolishing the stupid reserve list. If there ever was a time to do it, it'd be now while you still got a chance to keep your players and make way for the surge of new ones.
Vintage is dead. We know that Wizards won't touch proxied tournaments with a ten-foot pole, and that is why Vintage will never actually make it back to its 2004 numbers when the format was in its prime. Every deck in Vintage needs power, and the supply of power is far too low to support a player base that is the biggest in the history of the game.
And the amount of players playing the game only helps. The more people play the game in general, the more people there are going to be willing to shell out for vintage. No one is expecting vintage to crush standard popularity, but the return of a P9 series is a very real possibility, whether SCG puts it on, or someone else. Lest we forget vintage is also alive and well in Europe too.
Sword of Fire and Ice: vendor average is $60, ebay completed listings between $25 and $30
Wasteland: vendor average is $50, ebay has them between $35 and $40
Force of Will: vendor average is $70, ebay has them around $45-50
Aether Vial: vendor average is $15, ebay has them at $10
What's with the insane spiking? How did the Sword jump almost $40 in a day? Why isn't my playset of Dark Confidants now worth $over 9000?AHHHHH my brain hurts.
Lands WUBG
EDH:
Doran WBG
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=309784
There is, at least in my estimation, a convergence from Standard and Vintage into Legacy. Vintage is much more cost prohibitive for new players, and Standard is starting to become cost prohibitive with Mythic rares but with the added layer of substantial depreciation of cards upon rotation. Whereas, with Legacy you have some cost barriers yet with price stability.
I think we are seeing a peak price point, but when Legacy season dies down prices may stabalize and decrease a bit, perhaps even sooner after the recent fervor is over.
At the same time, EDH is starting to pick up some steam and casual is an ever constant. Internationally, MTG and demand for older cards is escalating. In the end, and it goes without saying, simple supply and demand dictates the prices.
The problem is there is no "Legacy season" SCG Opens are almost every weekend. If you wanted to travel you can go to 2-3 competitive events a month.
My error, I was estimating when it typically picks up based on local trends. And as you point out, the frequency of Legacy events with SCG being the leader of the pack demonstrates the consistent growth in the format.
Lands WUBG
EDH:
Doran WBG
They are sold out completely. In the next week or so It would not surprise me to see +$5 on its selling price.
Link
I'm not sure where you're getting $40 each from. FOWs are going for at least $50 each on Ebay, anything under that is under NM condition. (Also don't forget to include shipping)
Can we expect this trend to continue though? If there is no end to Legacy season, there's very little chance of these staples dropping in price, correct?
Commander/EDH:
WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator WU
GW Saffi Eriksdotter GW
BW Selenia, Dark Angel BW
W Heliod, God of Sun W
Retired:
Jenara, Asura of War Thada Adel, Acquisitor Jaya Ballard, Task Mage Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero Lyzolda, the Blood Witch Akroma, Angel of Wrath Nath of the Gilt-Leaf Tajic, Blade of the Legion Selvala, Explorer Returned Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Tiny Leaders:
W Mangara of Corondor W
There are some peaks and valleys in price, though not usually steep as with SoFI. I could see more leveling in price after a major buying frenzie. However, as with ebay you will see more deviation from vendors with there being more competition as well as liquidation. That may explain in part some of the disparity in prices.
As time passes, I could see Legacy having some prices getting somewhat out of control, but with reprints we can expect some to keep within reason.
Well, I saw the ones for $45 and playset auctions usually lose a few bucks. But still. It's a long ways from $70 a pop.
Lands WUBG
EDH:
Doran WBG
Beware how private sellers who are not reputable vendors/sellers grade higher priced cards.
Judging by what Ben Bleiwiess wrote in the thread about Star City's new buylist - it sounds like dealers are running into the same issues that players run into when trying to get Legacy cards. People don't want to get rid of them easily or cheaply. Scarcity of and demand for these cards makes people want to hold out for the best deal possible when getting rid of them. Dealers right now have to pay prices close to what players are paying just to get the cards in stock. If they're paying that much, then they need to raise their prices in order to make a profit on the cards.
One, to get these hard to find cards sellers basically have to straight up pay ebay finished prices.
Two, with legacy continuing to climb in price no one wants to be left behind AND no one wants to devote a lot of time to keeping up with those prices. Think about the manpower involved in keeping up with that many prices, and how hard that is.
Yes i am the same guy who trades/sells on MOTL AND Wizards of the Coast and i trade on POJO.
Buy from me on TCGPlayer::Twitter::Flickr
Wasteland: +$3
Sword of Light and Shadow: +$5
Gaea's Cradle: +$5
Time Spiral: +$5
Sword of Fire and Ice: +$10
Force of Will: +$10
All Ten Duals: +$10
Mishra's Workshop: +$25
In all, not counting duplicate printings from various sets, SCG has raised it's buy price on 17 cards in 10 days! That's pretty amazing. This post is not a complaint, mind you, it's just an astonished reaction that prices and demand are moving up so quickly. I haven't since price moves like this since the first six months Legacy was seperated from Vintage. And the sad thing is, at least IMO, SCG still is sold out of all these cards!!! It boggles my mind. What are your thoughts on this, guys?
ET