When comparing overall card value of Ravnica: City of Guilds and Return to Ravnica, a huge price difference can be seen across the board, from common to mythic. I do know that time can add to a cards worth, as well as it's print run. I am mostly looking at card power level that equates to the overall monetary value of the card. The OG Ravnica has cards like Lightning Helix, Dark Confidant & Doubling Season. Now look at Return to Ravnica - nothing from RTR holds a value to the mentioned examples from OG Ravnica. And it's not just print run, it power level.
Now I bring all of this up because we are entering a the third round of Ravnica with Guilds of Ravnica.
I am going to mention a few points/thoughts:
1) Do we think R&D will learn from RTR that cards will/should be stronger/more synergistic, which will then translate to a stronger price out the door and over the long run?
2) Am I just misjudging RTR and that there is still a lot of growth (money-wise) for the set?
3) Will this new era of Magic (I believe we have left the New World Order) give us cards that hold their value better than RTR, and more like Ravnia: City of Guilds?
And yes, I am aware that I have zero to go on, but I am using the lessons of the past to speculate on the future.
2) Am I just misjudging RTR and that there is still a lot of growth (money-wise) for the set?
Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman say hi. And Cyclonic Rift is pretty much an auto-include in every blue EDH deck. What you're missing is how these cards have been reprinted. Doubling Season got a MM1 reprint at rare, and is pretty much the most popular casual card ever. Bob has been reprinted in several Masters sets, but always at mythic, which doesn't really squish his price. All the "return" cards were reprinted at rare already. So I don't think that it's a strict power-level thing; it's a combination of age and reprint outlet.
I'm also very bearish on Modern cards with "room to grow". I don't think that WOTC will allow them to do so, in this world of reprinted everything.
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You do have a point to some degree. Those are all staple cards used in Modern, Commander & Legacy/Vintage (for the most part), but look at how many cards have broke the $20 mark in RTR block? Not one. Then look at OG Ravnica... 6 cards broke $20. Here's my source: http://mtg.dawnglare.com/?p=modern
So many of the guild rares from RTR are trash rares. Many of them just needed a small tweek, i.e. a cost reduction of 1 or 2 colorless, 1 more added to power or toughness, an extra keyword, timing (instant vs. sorcery speed), etc...
I am hoping that the cards are more competitive and fun (both can happen simultaneously), which, over time, means they will have more value, money-wise. And truly the print run excuse cannot be used, because I remember back in those days the print runs were still higher than previous runs. We also talked about how cards were mass produced then (mid/early 2,000's) compared to sets from the 90's. Saying that a larger print run will keep costs down is a case of 20/20 hindsight.
You do have a point to some degree. Those are all staple cards used in Modern, Commander & Legacy/Vintage (for the most part), but look at how many cards have broke the $20 mark in RTR block? Not one. Then look at OG Ravnica... 6 cards broke $20. Here's my source: http://mtg.dawnglare.com/?p=modern
So many of the guild rares from RTR are trash rares. Many of them just needed a small tweek, i.e. a cost reduction of 1 or 2 colorless, 1 more added to power or toughness, an extra keyword, timing (instant vs. sorcery speed), etc...
I am hoping that the cards are more competitive and fun (both can happen simultaneously), which, over time, means they will have more value, money-wise. And truly the print run excuse cannot be used, because I remember back in those days the print runs were still higher than previous runs. We also talked about how cards were mass produced then (mid/early 2,000's) compared to sets from the 90's. Saying that a larger print run will keep costs down is a case of 20/20 hindsight.
Champions of Kamigawa, the large set right before Ravnica: City of Guilds, has 5 cards that are over $20, by your source. Do you want WOTC to print another COK? I think that you're trying to draw some sort of connection between price and card quality that just isn't there. Older sets are going to have more expensive cards, and the comparison of a pre-mythic set to a New World Order set is really just going to be fruitless.
Were a lot of the RTR-block rares junk rares? Absolutely. Dragon's Maze was a disaster of a set. But don't let rose-colored glasses blind you to the Nullstone Gargoyles and Molten Sentrys of the original Ravnica.
TL;DR - I don't think that you can gain anything by comparing two random blocks that happen to share a rare land cycle and a loose theme (multicolor). If you think about it, that's all that RAV block and RTR block have in common. Will you also compare Onslaught block to Khans block? I feel like you're really jumping the gun with the speculation here.
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When comparing overall card value of Ravnica: City of Guilds and Return to Ravnica, a huge price difference can be seen across the board, from common to mythic. I do know that time can add to a cards worth, as well as it's print run. I am mostly looking at card power level that equates to the overall monetary value of the card. The OG Ravnica has cards like Lightning Helix, Dark Confidant & Doubling Season. Now look at Return to Ravnica - nothing from RTR holds a value to the mentioned examples from OG Ravnica. And it's not just print run, it power level.
Now I bring all of this up because we are entering a the third round of Ravnica with Guilds of Ravnica.
I am going to mention a few points/thoughts:
1) Do we think R&D will learn from RTR that cards will/should be stronger/more synergistic, which will then translate to a stronger price out the door and over the long run?
2) Am I just misjudging RTR and that there is still a lot of growth (money-wise) for the set?
3) Will this new era of Magic (I believe we have left the New World Order) give us cards that hold their value better than RTR, and more like Ravnia: City of Guilds?
And yes, I am aware that I have zero to go on, but I am using the lessons of the past to speculate on the future.
Going to answer your questions:
1) No. I don't think R&D really cares much about the factors you were mentioning.
2) Probably yes. After all the complaints about the reserve list jacking up the prices, Wizards has given players a format where players don't have to worry about prices going too far up...ever. The converse is you should never expect your modern cards to go up past a certain point.
3) No. None of the new era of magic cards should ever hold their value better than before. That's the whole point of Wizards handling complaints about the reserve list. You want cheap cards, you got it! But that also means your modern cards will never go up.
I'll reiterate, if magic is truly a game for players, and not collectors, then you should never expect modern prices to go up ever. If it does, it's temporary gain--for a summer, a season, etc. Wizards will reprint it. If one reprinting doesn't get the job done, wizards will reprint it a second time, and a third, and a fourth...
Example.
Community: Tarmogoyf is too expensive! Magic is for players!
Wizards: ok. *reprints in Modern Masters*
Community: Tarmogoyf is still too expensive!
Wizards: alright. *reprints in Modern Masters*
Community: Still too expensive!!!!
Wizards: Very well. *reprints in Modern Masters 2015*
Community: We're still unhappy!
Wizards: Okilie Dokilie. *reprints in Modern Masters 2017*
Community: Dark Confidant prices are through the roof!
Wizards: Understood. *reprints in DCI judge*
Community: Like a judge promo does anything to the price!!
Wizards: You have a point *reprints in Modern Masters*
Community: Still too expensive!!!!
Wizards: We're happy to take your money without additional R&D *reprints in Modern Masters 2015*
By the same token Vendilion Clique was printed in Morningtide and reprinted in Modern Masters, Masters 2015, Masters 25, Judge foil.
This is what the community has said they wanted. So you tell me, how can any modern cards ever go up in price in the long run?
I love magic. I still want to complete my ultimate modern/kitchen table deck(s). But if cards are just going to get cheaper in the long run anyway, I hold off. If you are going to build your decks but because of job, personal commitments can't really use your decks that much, buy later., unless your card is on the reserve list. Then, buy now.
Now I bring all of this up because we are entering a the third round of Ravnica with Guilds of Ravnica.
I am going to mention a few points/thoughts:
1) Do we think R&D will learn from RTR that cards will/should be stronger/more synergistic, which will then translate to a stronger price out the door and over the long run?
2) Am I just misjudging RTR and that there is still a lot of growth (money-wise) for the set?
3) Will this new era of Magic (I believe we have left the New World Order) give us cards that hold their value better than RTR, and more like Ravnia: City of Guilds?
And yes, I am aware that I have zero to go on, but I am using the lessons of the past to speculate on the future.
Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman say hi. And Cyclonic Rift is pretty much an auto-include in every blue EDH deck. What you're missing is how these cards have been reprinted. Doubling Season got a MM1 reprint at rare, and is pretty much the most popular casual card ever. Bob has been reprinted in several Masters sets, but always at mythic, which doesn't really squish his price. All the "return" cards were reprinted at rare already. So I don't think that it's a strict power-level thing; it's a combination of age and reprint outlet.
I'm also very bearish on Modern cards with "room to grow". I don't think that WOTC will allow them to do so, in this world of reprinted everything.
You do have a point to some degree. Those are all staple cards used in Modern, Commander & Legacy/Vintage (for the most part), but look at how many cards have broke the $20 mark in RTR block? Not one. Then look at OG Ravnica... 6 cards broke $20. Here's my source: http://mtg.dawnglare.com/?p=modern
So many of the guild rares from RTR are trash rares. Many of them just needed a small tweek, i.e. a cost reduction of 1 or 2 colorless, 1 more added to power or toughness, an extra keyword, timing (instant vs. sorcery speed), etc...
I am hoping that the cards are more competitive and fun (both can happen simultaneously), which, over time, means they will have more value, money-wise. And truly the print run excuse cannot be used, because I remember back in those days the print runs were still higher than previous runs. We also talked about how cards were mass produced then (mid/early 2,000's) compared to sets from the 90's. Saying that a larger print run will keep costs down is a case of 20/20 hindsight.
Champions of Kamigawa, the large set right before Ravnica: City of Guilds, has 5 cards that are over $20, by your source. Do you want WOTC to print another COK? I think that you're trying to draw some sort of connection between price and card quality that just isn't there. Older sets are going to have more expensive cards, and the comparison of a pre-mythic set to a New World Order set is really just going to be fruitless.
Were a lot of the RTR-block rares junk rares? Absolutely. Dragon's Maze was a disaster of a set. But don't let rose-colored glasses blind you to the Nullstone Gargoyles and Molten Sentrys of the original Ravnica.
TL;DR - I don't think that you can gain anything by comparing two random blocks that happen to share a rare land cycle and a loose theme (multicolor). If you think about it, that's all that RAV block and RTR block have in common. Will you also compare Onslaught block to Khans block? I feel like you're really jumping the gun with the speculation here.
Going to answer your questions:
1) No. I don't think R&D really cares much about the factors you were mentioning.
2) Probably yes. After all the complaints about the reserve list jacking up the prices, Wizards has given players a format where players don't have to worry about prices going too far up...ever. The converse is you should never expect your modern cards to go up past a certain point.
3) No. None of the new era of magic cards should ever hold their value better than before. That's the whole point of Wizards handling complaints about the reserve list. You want cheap cards, you got it! But that also means your modern cards will never go up.
I'll reiterate, if magic is truly a game for players, and not collectors, then you should never expect modern prices to go up ever. If it does, it's temporary gain--for a summer, a season, etc. Wizards will reprint it. If one reprinting doesn't get the job done, wizards will reprint it a second time, and a third, and a fourth...
Example.
Community: Tarmogoyf is too expensive! Magic is for players!
Wizards: ok. *reprints in Modern Masters*
Community: Tarmogoyf is still too expensive!
Wizards: alright. *reprints in Modern Masters*
Community: Still too expensive!!!!
Wizards: Very well. *reprints in Modern Masters 2015*
Community: We're still unhappy!
Wizards: Okilie Dokilie. *reprints in Modern Masters 2017*
Community: Dark Confidant prices are through the roof!
Wizards: Understood. *reprints in DCI judge*
Community: Like a judge promo does anything to the price!!
Wizards: You have a point *reprints in Modern Masters*
Community: Still too expensive!!!!
Wizards: We're happy to take your money without additional R&D *reprints in Modern Masters 2015*
By the same token Vendilion Clique was printed in Morningtide and reprinted in Modern Masters, Masters 2015, Masters 25, Judge foil.
This is what the community has said they wanted. So you tell me, how can any modern cards ever go up in price in the long run?
I love magic. I still want to complete my ultimate modern/kitchen table deck(s). But if cards are just going to get cheaper in the long run anyway, I hold off. If you are going to build your decks but because of job, personal commitments can't really use your decks that much, buy later., unless your card is on the reserve list. Then, buy now.