I wonder if WotC knew that this set's value would be soft, so they tossed in the Expedition lottery-esque cards to help prop up what is looking to be a very weak set...?
I wonder if WotC knew that this set's value would be soft, so they tossed in the Expedition lottery-esque cards to help prop up what is looking to be a very weak set...?
I think it's more a case of not wanting power creep and wanting to be able to churn out sets faster and for less cost. Designing sets with inherently weaker cards means you don't have to test as much for "brokeness" (if Hero's Downfall isn't broken, making it sorcery speed and +2 mana awaken cost won't break it kind of thinking), and it means you probably have designing down to a science rather than an art. I'm guessing a large percentage of cards from here on out will be "filler" cards, reprints in all but name, direct reprints of janky commons, etc. Ostensibly for limited, but really, how many divination and evolving wilds reprints do you need "for limited".
How do you sell filler sets? By adding bonuses. We'll be seeing a hook for most sets in the future. It's already started - Shocks in RTR and fetches in KTK. And I'm sure those sets sold more than Theros, which is just reinforcing the thinking that you have to have a special "hook" to get people to buy - either a return to a plane or selective reprints or both.
I just hope they don't get lazy with it and really start phoning it in. I am less worried about a broken standard than a permanently nerfed standard that always feels the same as last standard.
I wonder if WotC knew that this set's value would be soft, so they tossed in the Expedition lottery-esque cards to help prop up what is looking to be a very weak set...?
I think it's more a case of not wanting power creep and wanting to be able to churn out sets faster and for less cost. Designing sets with inherently weaker cards means you don't have to test as much for "brokeness" (if Hero's Downfall isn't broken, making it sorcery speed and +2 mana awaken cost won't break it kind of thinking), and it means you probably have designing down to a science rather than an art. I'm guessing a large percentage of cards from here on out will be "filler" cards, reprints in all but name, direct reprints of janky commons, etc. Ostensibly for limited, but really, how many divination and evolving wilds reprints do you need "for limited".
How do you sell filler sets? By adding bonuses. We'll be seeing a hook for most sets in the future. It's already started - Shocks in RTR and fetches in KTK. And I'm sure those sets sold more than Theros, which is just reinforcing the thinking that you have to have a special "hook" to get people to buy - either a return to a plane or selective reprints or both.
I just hope they don't get lazy with it and really start phoning it in. I am less worried about a broken standard than a permanently nerfed standard that always feels the same as last standard.
I guess this can work for a time, but eventually it'll lead to a very stale (or at least predictable) standard environment and will add nothing for modern decks. There's still over half of this set yet to be spoiled, but so far it doesn't look promising.
I know that everyone decries a set as it is being spoiled, but I'm usually not one of them. That being said, the actual cards in this set seem terrible. Most of the rares are likely to START at bulk, not drift downwards to bulk. We have nearly all the rares revealed, and they look awful.
We are already at 46/53 rares and 12/15 mythics. Holy smokes, batman, send this set back please!
I wonder if WotC knew that this set's value would be soft, so they tossed in the Expedition lottery-esque cards to help prop up what is looking to be a very weak set...?
I think it's more a case of not wanting power creep and wanting to be able to churn out sets faster and for less cost. Designing sets with inherently weaker cards means you don't have to test as much for "brokeness" (if Hero's Downfall isn't broken, making it sorcery speed and +2 mana awaken cost won't break it kind of thinking), and it means you probably have designing down to a science rather than an art. I'm guessing a large percentage of cards from here on out will be "filler" cards, reprints in all but name, direct reprints of janky commons, etc. Ostensibly for limited, but really, how many divination and evolving wilds reprints do you need "for limited".
How do you sell filler sets? By adding bonuses. We'll be seeing a hook for most sets in the future. It's already started - Shocks in RTR and fetches in KTK. And I'm sure those sets sold more than Theros, which is just reinforcing the thinking that you have to have a special "hook" to get people to buy - either a return to a plane or selective reprints or both.
I just hope they don't get lazy with it and really start phoning it in. I am less worried about a broken standard than a permanently nerfed standard that always feels the same as last standard.
Don't forget the full arts!!!
This set sells itself. No need to put many broken cards into it.
That said people will still buy it and prices will still spike massively on the Sunday of the pro tour.
"Nerfed standard" as you call it actually liked by many people and I think Wizards realizes they need sweeteners if they're putting barely any modern playable cards into a set as people are very weary about paying $500 for decks that will be worthless in 6 months (with the new rotation cycle).
It's nice that non-fetch cards in KTK are practically worthless so rotation looming in 6 months doesn't sting too bad but it might feel a bit different for the DTK cards.
I can see a scenario where a lot of boxes will be opened trying to chase the expeditions. This will supress prices of all the other cards much like ktk and it's fetches.
I can also see people not caring too much for the expeditions and not Crack cases like mad.
This set...looks like a stinker. Really disappointed in the lack of playables and the amount of filler-type cards. Without the expedition gimmick, not sure how well this set sells.
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"To make peace with the forest, make peace with me." -Multani, to Urza
I think the set has a few Standard playables, all the planeswalkers, for instance. A couple Eldrazi (plus they will be casual all stars). The lands will also be in demand. All in all enough for people to want to open packs. I think the skepticism is a bit over done. But, I hardy ever open packs and won't be starting now.
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"Because we cannot prevent draws in paper Magic we allow IDs. If we could prevent draws we would not have IDs in paper Magic. " Scott Larabee.
I think BFZ is interesting in standard. BUT if you are a modern only player, this set offers very little.
I don't think that's strictly true. Here's a list of cards that could potentially see Modern play:
1) The "tango" lands. These won't supplant the Shocklands, but they're a great addition to them for any two-color deck. Run 1-2 shocks so that you can fetch untapped when you *really* need an untapped dual on the first or second turn, and fill the rest of your dual slots with tangos to fetch on turns 3+ for painless untapped lands
2) Manlands. Neither is Colonnade good, but they're on par with Creeping Tar Pit and Raging Ravine, both of which see decent play currently.
3) Gideon, Ally to Zendikar - Elspeth, Knight-Errant still sees some play, and Gideon just seems better
4) Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger - More immediate board impact than Kozilek, Butcher of Truth at ten mana makes this a strong consideration for Tron builds.
5) Brutal Expulsion - a strong Command-stlye card for decks that can't support the triple-U of Cryptic. I expect this to be a strong role-player in Tarmo Twin, for example.
6) Wasteland Strangler - My pick for Sleeper of the set. T2 Journey to Nowhere or Tidehollow Scullter, t3 this guy to kill a dude and make the exile more permanent.
7) Emeria Shepherd - Not a guarantee, but I foresee 1 of this guy in the Sun Titan/Emeria UW Control build.
8) Retreat to Coralhelm - It's already being brewed for its combo with Knight of the Reliquary. Both pieces are great on their own too, as this can filter you past dead draws or tap down blockers, and KotR is KotR.
9) Kiora, Master of the Depths - Seems like a good inclusion in the Ug Nykthos Ramp deck
10) Blighted Cataract and Blighted Fen - 1-2 of these in controlling builds will be amazing
11) Mortuary Mire - Kolaghan's Command has proven the power of Raise Dead effects when they're strapped to other things you want to be doing. I can see a definite 1-of in Jund, Abzan, and Grixis decks as a way to recur threats mid to late game.
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1) Fringe, fringe, fringe play. If this set isn't opened much, there may a future for these lands. Otherwise, they'll be propped up by standard and will rotate out at less than $5 each. It'll take another year or three before you'll see them move again
2) Both are garbage. They both die to an animated Stirring Wildwood, the 2nd worst manland. For instance, I don't think Esper builds will be clamoring to put the BW land in instead of Colonnade or Tar Pit, which both have evasion instead of "you can suicide me into their team and get 2 life!"
3) Doubtful. Maybe in janky B/W token Tier 3 builds.
4) Sorry, no. Regular Ulamog never saw play and tacking on another exile effect isn't going to help.
5) I am not seeing it. Those decks don't play Venser and they already play Electrolyze. Why would they want a 5th Remand type effect for 4 mana? The 2 damage at that point signifies little.
6) Ehhh....the remove from exile clause is just too conditional.
7) Not seeing it, but I'm' not really sure what UW Control is in modern
8) I like this card but it's an uncommon
9) Seems OK. Maybe in S/B but I still think Jace AoT is better
10) Sure, but uncommons
11) Nah. K-Command put creature in your hand. This is just setting up your next draw in exchange for a ETB tapped land. I'm not sure if Modern cares.
I think BFZ is interesting in standard. BUT if you are a modern only player, this set offers very little.
I don't think that's strictly true. Here's a list of cards that could potentially see Modern play:
1) The "tango" lands. These won't supplant the Shocklands, but they're a great addition to them for any two-color deck. Run 1-2 shocks so that you can fetch untapped when you *really* need an untapped dual on the first or second turn, and fill the rest of your dual slots with tangos to fetch on turns 3+ for painless untapped lands
2) Manlands. Neither is Colonnade good, but they're on par with Creeping Tar Pit and Raging Ravine, both of which see decent play currently.
3) Gideon, Ally to Zendikar - Elspeth, Knight-Errant still sees some play, and Gideon just seems better
4) Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger - More immediate board impact than Kozilek, Butcher of Truth at ten mana makes this a strong consideration for Tron builds.
5) Brutal Expulsion - a strong Command-stlye card for decks that can't support the triple-U of Cryptic. I expect this to be a strong role-player in Tarmo Twin, for example.
6) Wasteland Strangler - My pick for Sleeper of the set. T2 Journey to Nowhere or Tidehollow Scullter, t3 this guy to kill a dude and make the exile more permanent.
7) Emeria Shepherd - Not a guarantee, but I foresee 1 of this guy in the Sun Titan/Emeria UW Control build.
8) Retreat to Coralhelm - It's already being brewed for its combo with Knight of the Reliquary. Both pieces are great on their own too, as this can filter you past dead draws or tap down blockers, and KotR is KotR.
9) Kiora, Master of the Depths - Seems like a good inclusion in the Ug Nykthos Ramp deck
10) Blighted Cataract and Blighted Fen - 1-2 of these in controlling builds will be amazing
11) Mortuary Mire - Kolaghan's Command has proven the power of Raise Dead effects when they're strapped to other things you want to be doing. I can see a definite 1-of in Jund, Abzan, and Grixis decks as a way to recur threats mid to late game.
1) Fringe, fringe, fringe play. If this set isn't opened much, there may a future for these lands. Otherwise, they'll be propped up by standard and will rotate out at less than $5 each. It'll take another year or three before you'll see them move again
Honestly, the biggest knock against them is that they only have the allied pairs. UR Twin would 100% run 2-3 of a UR one.
As it stands, both of my current Modern decks (Skred Red splash Black, and UW Sun Titan/Emeria) would want 1-3 copies.
2) Both are garbage. They both die an animated Stirring Wildwood, the 2nd worst manland.
Dying to Wildwood is irrelevant since it's basically unplayed. What is relevant is that Falls can't be Bolted, while Raging Ravine can. I'd be willing to bet that Falls will 100% see Modern play. The BW one less so, because it has less of an obvious home.
3) Doubtful. Maybe in janky B/W token Tier 3 builds.
Honestly, I think it's strong enough to see play in UWR Midrange too.
4) Sorry, no. Regular Ulamog never saw play and tacking on another exile effect isn't going to help.
Tron currently runs a copy of Old Ulamog in about 1 in every 3 lists. Newlamog has more immediate impact at one mana cheaper.
5) I am not seeing it. Those decks don't play Venser and they already play Electrolyze. Why would they want a 5th Remand type effect for 4 mana? The 2 damage at that point signifies little.
The 2 damage with exile is pretty significant actually. Being able to permanently answer a Kitchen Finks or Voice of Resurgence while also bouncing another spell or creature is a strong tempo swing.
6) Ehhh....the remove from exile clause is just too conditional.
I agree that it doesn't have a place at the moment, but hence Sleeper. I do think it has a lot of potential.
7) Not seeing it, but I'm' not really sure what UW Control is in modern
This List top16'd at SCG Richmond, and is a perfect place for it.
8) I like this card but it's an uncommon
Price-wise, it's not stellar, but it's still an interesting new toy for Modern.
9) Seems OK. Maybe in S/B but I still think Jace AoT is better
Jace is better in other builds, but having a Jace-esque ability also attached to an ability that untaps Nykthos + Arbor Elf is hugely strong in the Devotion deck.
Also, I could see this in a Sultai Midrange list, as the cards you don't pick end up in your yard where they fuel Delve.
1) Fringe, fringe, fringe play. If this set isn't opened much, there may a future for these lands. Otherwise, they'll be propped up by standard and will rotate out at less than $5 each. It'll take another year or three before you'll see them move again
Honestly, the biggest knock against them is that they only have the allied pairs. UR Twin would 100% run 2-3 of a UR one.
As it stands, both of my current Modern decks (Skred Red splash Black, and UW Sun Titan/Emeria) would want 1-3 copies.
2) Both are garbage. They both die an animated Stirring Wildwood, the 2nd worst manland.
Dying to Wildwood is irrelevant since it's basically unplayed. What is relevant is that Falls can't be Bolted, while Raging Ravine can. I'd be willing to bet that Falls will 100% see Modern play. The BW one less so, because it has less of an obvious home.
3) Doubtful. Maybe in janky B/W token Tier 3 builds.
Honestly, I think it's strong enough to see play in UWR Midrange too.
4) Sorry, no. Regular Ulamog never saw play and tacking on another exile effect isn't going to help.
Tron currently runs a copy of Old Ulamog in about 1 in every 3 lists. Newlamog has more immediate impact at one mana cheaper.
5) I am not seeing it. Those decks don't play Venser and they already play Electrolyze. Why would they want a 5th Remand type effect for 4 mana? The 2 damage at that point signifies little.
The 2 damage with exile is pretty significant actually. Being able to permanently answer a Kitchen Finks or Voice of Resurgence while also bouncing another spell or creature is a strong tempo swing.
6) Ehhh....the remove from exile clause is just too conditional.
I agree that it doesn't have a place at the moment, but hence Sleeper. I do think it has a lot of potential.
7) Not seeing it, but I'm' not really sure what UW Control is in modern
This List top16'd at SCG Richmond, and is a perfect place for it.
8) I like this card but it's an uncommon
Price-wise, it's not stellar, but it's still an interesting new toy for Modern.
9) Seems OK. Maybe in S/B but I still think Jace AoT is better
Jace is better in other builds, but having a Jace-esque ability also attached to an ability that untaps Nykthos + Arbor Elf is hugely strong in the Devotion deck.
Also, I could see this in a Sultai Midrange list, as the cards you don't pick end up in your yard where they fuel Delve.
I think it's more a case of not wanting power creep and wanting to be able to churn out sets faster and for less cost. Designing sets with inherently weaker cards means you don't have to test as much for "brokeness" (if Hero's Downfall isn't broken, making it sorcery speed and +2 mana awaken cost won't break it kind of thinking), and it means you probably have designing down to a science rather than an art. I'm guessing a large percentage of cards from here on out will be "filler" cards, reprints in all but name, direct reprints of janky commons, etc. Ostensibly for limited, but really, how many divination and evolving wilds reprints do you need "for limited".
How do you sell filler sets? By adding bonuses. We'll be seeing a hook for most sets in the future. It's already started - Shocks in RTR and fetches in KTK. And I'm sure those sets sold more than Theros, which is just reinforcing the thinking that you have to have a special "hook" to get people to buy - either a return to a plane or selective reprints or both.
I just hope they don't get lazy with it and really start phoning it in. I am less worried about a broken standard than a permanently nerfed standard that always feels the same as last standard.
I guess this can work for a time, but eventually it'll lead to a very stale (or at least predictable) standard environment and will add nothing for modern decks. There's still over half of this set yet to be spoiled, but so far it doesn't look promising.
We are already at 46/53 rares and 12/15 mythics. Holy smokes, batman, send this set back please!
Don't forget the full arts!!!
This set sells itself. No need to put many broken cards into it.
That said people will still buy it and prices will still spike massively on the Sunday of the pro tour.
"Nerfed standard" as you call it actually liked by many people and I think Wizards realizes they need sweeteners if they're putting barely any modern playable cards into a set as people are very weary about paying $500 for decks that will be worthless in 6 months (with the new rotation cycle).
It's nice that non-fetch cards in KTK are practically worthless so rotation looming in 6 months doesn't sting too bad but it might feel a bit different for the DTK cards.
I can see a scenario where a lot of boxes will be opened trying to chase the expeditions. This will supress prices of all the other cards much like ktk and it's fetches.
I can also see people not caring too much for the expeditions and not Crack cases like mad.
Which scenario will it be?
I don't think that's strictly true. Here's a list of cards that could potentially see Modern play:
1) The "tango" lands. These won't supplant the Shocklands, but they're a great addition to them for any two-color deck. Run 1-2 shocks so that you can fetch untapped when you *really* need an untapped dual on the first or second turn, and fill the rest of your dual slots with tangos to fetch on turns 3+ for painless untapped lands
2) Manlands. Neither is Colonnade good, but they're on par with Creeping Tar Pit and Raging Ravine, both of which see decent play currently.
3) Gideon, Ally to Zendikar - Elspeth, Knight-Errant still sees some play, and Gideon just seems better
4) Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger - More immediate board impact than Kozilek, Butcher of Truth at ten mana makes this a strong consideration for Tron builds.
5) Brutal Expulsion - a strong Command-stlye card for decks that can't support the triple-U of Cryptic. I expect this to be a strong role-player in Tarmo Twin, for example.
6) Wasteland Strangler - My pick for Sleeper of the set. T2 Journey to Nowhere or Tidehollow Scullter, t3 this guy to kill a dude and make the exile more permanent.
7) Emeria Shepherd - Not a guarantee, but I foresee 1 of this guy in the Sun Titan/Emeria UW Control build.
8) Retreat to Coralhelm - It's already being brewed for its combo with Knight of the Reliquary. Both pieces are great on their own too, as this can filter you past dead draws or tap down blockers, and KotR is KotR.
9) Kiora, Master of the Depths - Seems like a good inclusion in the Ug Nykthos Ramp deck
10) Blighted Cataract and Blighted Fen - 1-2 of these in controlling builds will be amazing
11) Mortuary Mire - Kolaghan's Command has proven the power of Raise Dead effects when they're strapped to other things you want to be doing. I can see a definite 1-of in Jund, Abzan, and Grixis decks as a way to recur threats mid to late game.
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2) Both are garbage. They both die to an animated Stirring Wildwood, the 2nd worst manland. For instance, I don't think Esper builds will be clamoring to put the BW land in instead of Colonnade or Tar Pit, which both have evasion instead of "you can suicide me into their team and get 2 life!"
3) Doubtful. Maybe in janky B/W token Tier 3 builds.
4) Sorry, no. Regular Ulamog never saw play and tacking on another exile effect isn't going to help.
5) I am not seeing it. Those decks don't play Venser and they already play Electrolyze. Why would they want a 5th Remand type effect for 4 mana? The 2 damage at that point signifies little.
6) Ehhh....the remove from exile clause is just too conditional.
7) Not seeing it, but I'm' not really sure what UW Control is in modern
8) I like this card but it's an uncommon
9) Seems OK. Maybe in S/B but I still think Jace AoT is better
10) Sure, but uncommons
11) Nah. K-Command put creature in your hand. This is just setting up your next draw in exchange for a ETB tapped land. I'm not sure if Modern cares.
Honestly, the biggest knock against them is that they only have the allied pairs. UR Twin would 100% run 2-3 of a UR one.
As it stands, both of my current Modern decks (Skred Red splash Black, and UW Sun Titan/Emeria) would want 1-3 copies.
Dying to Wildwood is irrelevant since it's basically unplayed. What is relevant is that Falls can't be Bolted, while Raging Ravine can. I'd be willing to bet that Falls will 100% see Modern play. The BW one less so, because it has less of an obvious home.
Honestly, I think it's strong enough to see play in UWR Midrange too.
Tron currently runs a copy of Old Ulamog in about 1 in every 3 lists. Newlamog has more immediate impact at one mana cheaper.
The 2 damage with exile is pretty significant actually. Being able to permanently answer a Kitchen Finks or Voice of Resurgence while also bouncing another spell or creature is a strong tempo swing.
I agree that it doesn't have a place at the moment, but hence Sleeper. I do think it has a lot of potential.
This List top16'd at SCG Richmond, and is a perfect place for it.
Price-wise, it's not stellar, but it's still an interesting new toy for Modern.
Jace is better in other builds, but having a Jace-esque ability also attached to an ability that untaps Nykthos + Arbor Elf is hugely strong in the Devotion deck.
Also, I could see this in a Sultai Midrange list, as the cards you don't pick end up in your yard where they fuel Delve.
I'm actually okay with not everything with Eternal impact being rare/mythic. Did you complain about Gurmag Angler, Treasure Cruise, and Monastery Swiftspear not being rare too?
The fact that it does it uncounterably and attached to a land makes it pretty strong. I'd certainly experiment with it.
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