One of the prime arguments against reprinting is that it causes prices to drop. This argument was responsible for the creation of the Reserved List, which has caused Legacy and Vintage decks to be currently very expensive in price, and in my opinion, out of the range of most Magic players, save for a few select decks. Now with Modern in play, Ravnica's dual lands as well as other cards are skyrocketing in price. Many people are fearing that this will cause the same entry issues for the format that the Eternal formats currently have. One way that Wizards could solve this is by reprinting cards. Not only would that make the cards cheaper (and therefore, more accessible), it would also make Wizards a lot of money. Win-win, right?
However, many people are againg complaining that reprinting will drop the price. But is that so? I know it sounds crazy, but I feel like this might not be true.
According to the laws of supply and demand, it would seem like increasing the supply for a card in the single market would only cause that card's price to drop.
But see, after supply is increased, demand actually doesn't stay static. People who weren't going to buy a card because it was too expensive will now change their mind if the card becomes a price that is acceptable to them, especially if the card has become cheaper than what they were willing to pay. Now that the card is cheaper, demand has actually gone up!
If this sounds too weird to be true, it isn't. It's actually based on an actual economic principle. But currently, I don't have my econ book with me, so this is the best way to explain it.
Also, if my idea is true, since Magic is a card game, greater demand for cards has other implications. A format only works if it has a substantial amount of players. (See Vintage and Extended for what happens when a format doesn't) If Modern gets more players because of reprints, then even more players will probably think about joining Modern due to its popularity, which will further increase the demand for cards. Thus, the prices potentially will be even higher than what they were at before the reprints.
This probably won't work if Wizards starts reprinting rares willy-nilly, but I don't see why reprinting core cards for Modern in a sensible way isn't a good deal fort them, but for players who want to enter the format as well as players who already have cards for it.
It does a little at first I've seen, but after a while it tends to balance out. Banning causes price drops. Personally I'm in favor of reprints. The reprinted version is almost always worth less than the original version, but it's still a copy at least. The only people with objections to reprinting are ones who spent tons of cash on the cards to begin with, or ones who sell the cards for a living in the after market. And of course elitists with the mindset of my deck is made of $100 bills so it's the greatest. Fortunately those are few but still.
Reprinting does in the short term lower overall value of cards, but I don't see anyone not snapping up From the Vault packs because of the reduced price. In fact the most vocal "Reprinting is bad" people tend to buy multiple copies of from the vault products. So as long as people buy the reprints they will make reprints. Personally I want to see a FtV: Lands. With 1 of each Shock, Fetch, or Pain land in it, along with some additional older lands, like Gemstone Caverns for example.
Through me the way to the suffering city; Through me the everlasting pain; Through me the way that runs among the Lost. Justice urged on my exalted Creator: Divine Power made me, The Supreme Wisdom and the Primal Love. Nothing was made before me but eternal things And I endure eternally. Abandon all hope - You Who Enter Here.
One of the prime arguments against reprinting is that it causes prices to drop. This argument was responsible for the creation of the Reserved List, which has caused Legacy and Vintage decks to be currently very expensive in price, and in my opinion, out of the range of most Magic players, save for a few select decks. Now with Modern in play, Ravnica's dual lands as well as other cards are skyrocketing in price. Many people are fearing that this will cause the same entry issues for the format that the Eternal formats currently have. One way that Wizards could solve this is by reprinting cards. Not only would that make the cards cheaper (and therefore, more accessible), it would also make Wizards a lot of money. Win-win, right?
However, many people are againg complaining that reprinting will drop the price. But is that so? I know it sounds crazy, but I feel like this might not be true.
According to the laws of supply and demand, it would seem like increasing the supply for a card in the single market would only cause that card's price to drop.
But see, after supply is increased, demand actually doesn't stay static. People who weren't going to buy a card because it was too expensive will now change their mind if the card becomes a price that is acceptable to them, especially if the card has become cheaper than what they were willing to pay. Now that the card is cheaper, demand has actually gone up!
If this sounds too weird to be true, it isn't. It's actually based on an actual economic principle. But currently, I don't have my econ book with me, so this is the best way to explain it.
Also, if my idea is true, since Magic is a card game, greater demand for cards has other implications. A format only works if it has a substantial amount of players. (See Vintage and Extended for what happens when a format doesn't) If Modern gets more players because of reprints, then even more players will probably think about joining Modern due to its popularity, which will further increase the demand for cards. Thus, the prices potentially will be even higher than what they were at before the reprints.
This probably won't work if Wizards starts reprinting rares willy-nilly, but I don't see why reprinting core cards for Modern in a sensible way isn't a good deal fort them, but for players who want to enter the format as well as players who already have cards for it.
Here's the problem about reprinting cards, while wizards will make a lot of money, and newer players will be able to more easily obtain them. What do you think happens to the people like me with the cards in hand, if they reprinted wasteland in a non-special set my $60 wastelands are now worth 5-10% of their value.
Bro you seriously need to take an economics class, if the supply of candelabra of tawnos is about 10,000 in the world (the approximated amount that exist), and then we factor out 1000ish are probably in storage and will never be heard from again, we have 2,250 playsets in the world, compared to the 300,000+ players, and now factor in, once upon a time (for a very short time) the "best deck" in legacy ran 4, you can imagine how high the card can get (peaked at over $300), now imagine we have 1,000,000 of this card (it's not far-fetched if it's in a new set), now anyone who wants a playset can find one mildly easily, why would I pay $300 for a card that I can find very easily?
By the logic you used cards getting reprinted should increase demand, but take a card like dragonskull summit (numbers approximated but close) at M10 (1,000,000 copies $12) at M11 (2,000,000 copies $3-4) M12 (3,000,000 copies $1.5) the demand can't keep up with the supply, a spike in demand needs to be far higher than what you can get from cards getting cheaper in order to absorb the sheer volume of cards opened in a new set.
I like the believe that most valuable old cards' original printings like Power 9 would retain most of their value since they are rare collector's items, even if a reissue in the form of a FTV series or collector's set had completely legal versions.
Cards like Imperial Recruiter which are expensive *only* because of their scarcity (nothing special about it) would see a huge plummet (although granted if it was in Standard legal it would still be a $25 rare since it would be pretty good in standard). After such a card rotates it would be worthless, although I feel the original printing would still be much more valuable due to its scarcity and novelty.
Cards like Reflecting Pool when reprinted saw a small bump due to being Standard legal and then a small deflation when it rotated.
Some cards, at least their rare scarce original printings, might not go down for the same reason why a collector's edition or reissue of Amazing Spider-man #1 won't affect the value of an original. But some cards are only valuable due to their playability and demand. These are the cards I have no sympathy to a collector if their value drops. Imagine if Force of Will was banned in Legacy (not happening, I know, but for the sake of argument). Its price would tank. If it was reprinted its price would tank. There's nothing inherently special about the Alliances printing other than the fact that anything with blue cards in legacy runs 4.
Imagine if Force of Will was banned in Legacy (not happening, I know, but for the sake of argument). Its price would tank. If it was reprinted its price would tank. There's nothing inherently special about the Alliances printing other than the fact that anything with blue cards in legacy runs 4.
I have no idea how many playsets of FoW I'd buy if they reprinted it.
To OP: What you say is true only to the following condition:
1) Reprint Amount is far less than the player base. <= in which we see will NEVER happen.
Lets say, you said that if Card A is reprinted, that means supply for it would've gone up, this means that the price for the cards would've gone down due to large supplies. You said that players that once did not wanted to buy the cards, but would buy it now since it is cheaper <- this is true that I agree.
But then, think about it, lets say that if the Reprinted amount was less than the player base, then this would make the price of it come down a bit, but then it will shoot back up because the supply still doesnt fill the demand. This is best said with FTV Mox Diamond.
But, if it is reprinted like in a big set, lets say Birds of Paradise, you could tell that the TOTAL amount of birds in the market totally exceeds the player base, while this does cause players that never owned birds before to get it, but it will not increase the price, because they are simply too many of it...
So.. while you are right about price being cheaper would increase demand, what you missed is that, Price will always still be determined by Supply vs Demand, your example simply says increased demand.
Let me ask you. Promo Book Jace, at the moment it is like $80, as far as I know that there were only 1000 printed (from wizards site)
You tell me: In what situation would cause the price to remain a high price after reprinting?
A) If the card was reprinted for another 1000 copies
B) If the card was reprinted for another 1000000 copies?
Here's the problem about reprinting cards, while wizards will make a lot of money, and newer players will be able to more easily obtain them. What do you think happens to the people like me with the cards in hand, if they reprinted wasteland in a non-special set my $60 wastelands are now worth 5-10% of their value.
Bro you seriously need to take an economics class, if the supply of candelabra of tawnos is about 10,000 in the world (the approximated amount that exist), and then we factor out 1000ish are probably in storage and will never be heard from again, we have 2,250 playsets in the world, compared to the 300,000+ players, and now factor in, once upon a time (for a very short time) the "best deck" in legacy ran 4, you can imagine how high the card can get (peaked at over $300), now imagine we have 1,000,000 of this card (it's not far-fetched if it's in a new set), now anyone who wants a playset can find one mildly easily, why would I pay $300 for a card that I can find very easily?
By the logic you used cards getting reprinted should increase demand, but take a card like dragonskull summit (numbers approximated but close) at M10 (1,000,000 copies $12) at M11 (2,000,000 copies $3-4) M12 (3,000,000 copies $1.5) the demand can't keep up with the supply, a spike in demand needs to be far higher than what you can get from cards getting cheaper in order to absorb the sheer volume of cards opened in a new set.
Wow, my econ class was actually the inspiration for this post. Seems like YOU haven't been to an econ class before.
I'm not sure where you're getting that if Wizards does a reprint of a rare card, it suddenly goes from 1,000 copies to 1,000,000 copies of a given card. That'd be ridiculous. It'd be up to Wizards to decide what would be the appropriate amount to reprint so that they could balance making money versus affecting market prices too much. So far, they have done a pretty good job with their FtV sets. I looked at the price history of one card, Mox Diamond, from that set, and the price is lower now than it was before the release of the set. However, the highest prices for the card ocurred six months after the FtV reprint was released. So it doesn't seem like the supply was what was totally affecting the price.
Also, for your Dragonskull Summit example, I think you're misunderstanding the price discrimination that singles-buying Magic players have. How many players are not going to buy a card because it is worth $5 instead of $4? By comparison, how many people would buy a card if it was worth $32 instead of $40? In both cases the cards dropped by 20%, but a difference of $8 verus $1 makes a big difference.
If reprinting cards causes prices to drop, it's bad for the collectors. If it doesn't cause prices to drop, then what's the point in reprinting them?
It drops prices for the short-term and increases the amount of players who have the cards. But by the long term, the players will all still have their cards, but the prices would have gone back up to equilibrium again.
If the Shocklands get reprinted, they'll probably go down a bit. They're already in huge demand, and a new printing would mean at least a doubled supply. However, there was never a guarantee that they wouldn't be reprinted. Collectors are speculators, and there is always a risk to being a speculator.
The only cards I think Wizards should never reprint are those on the reserved list (For obvious reasons of trust). The FTV lists breached that, but their limited value made the impact minimal.
Mate, perhaps you need to re read what I said. Also I think you DID NOT read what I asked... What I said was that I DO agree with you that the reprints will not hurt prices IF the qty was not printed enough...
Just like I believe that Force of Will, if it was printed as a Judges Promo, it will not have any impact on the prices of old ones.
BUT if it was done for like FNM, then you will see the price tank.
Do you see what I mean by the comparision? If it is printed as Judge promo only, this is what I mean by, a reprint that is NOT enough on a mass scale (Ie. look at sword of Fire and Ice)
But if you said reprinting in like, Core set, then this will have a potential to go 'overboard' with supplies, because we do know that alot of them will get opened up.
I hope I made it clearer for you?
Summary if you still dont understand:
1) Your first post only talks about how the lower prices will increase the demand. But you did not take supply into consideration. Prices will only drop if the supplier is higher than demand. If the demand increase due to the price drops, it will start to go up. If the demand does go over the supply, then the prices will start to increase because there are not enough supplied. But if demand stops before the actual supply, then you will see the price stabalize, or even drop as time goes. In fact, the price may also influence the demand as well. Because if lets say the buyers of the cards had in mind that they were going to make a profit, but then the market stablizes at a price that they do not like, they might lose demand for it, causing the price to decrease alot more (chain reaction) Just think of it as the stockmarket, if you see a card losing value like $1 a day, would you sell your copy while its still high price? (Ie. Time Reversal), That is the example of dropping demand = dropping price as well.
2) I will only agree with you that REPRINTS DO NOT CAUSE PRICE DROPS only for really limited cards, ie. reprinting them in FTV (I think they are limited), Judge promos, book promos. If they are reprinted in core sets, I think they will drop by some extend.
Instead of just looking at price vs demand, you should look at the relationship between demand vs supply as well
Heck, Its been 14 years since I've been in Econ, but I think Price vs Supply vs Demand is basic common sense
As someone who has taken more econ classes than you let me help you out. What you want is price elasticity. This is when a percentage change in price leads to a certain percentage change in demand. Obviously the lower the price goes the higher the demand will be.
So yes the decrease in price would cause increased demand, but as soon as that new demand pushes the price back up people will drop out of the market again as the price increases above their price sensitivity again.
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I don't fear the man who has played 10,000 decks once. I fear the man who played one deck 10,000 times.
1) they reprint an older card, no longer in standard (for quite some time)
2) they reprint a more recent card (gideon jura for example)
in the first scenario:
let's accept that Wizards won't reprint 'broken' cards, or those that will ruin standard..... with this in mind, it's likely that any good cards from older sets will have little or no impact on the value of the original version, but may be wildly less or more expensive as a reprint.... for example, solemn simulacrum being reprinted has had little effect on the original card price, but the M12 version has skyrocketed. in the example of older, more collectable cards - it's likely that their value would not change, but the new reprint's value would be entirely set on how well it functioned within the standard metagame.
in the second:
the reprinting of a more recent card does significantly lower the price. but it's not simply because there are more of them around - it's more to do with people assuming there's more around, and then being less willing to pay high prices.... remember, an object is only ever worth as much as someone will pay for it.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
It depends on the card.
Imperial Recruiter is a 200 dollar uncommon, that is very hard to find. It also sees play in legacy, which is driving its price. If it was reprinted as an uncommon or a rare in a new set, the price would plummet. The supply would rise greatly.
Wasteland is a 40 dollar uncommon, that is not as hard to find. Wasteland has had three printings. the MPR Wasteland is worth the most out of the three, followed by the Judge Promo and then the Tempest Wasteland.
Now let's do some math.
Currently, there are 6 Recruiters for sale according to MTGcardsinfo. They vary in price, but to keep things easy, let's make it 200.
6 Recruiters @ 200 dollars Per. Let's say that Recruit is printed in a set the size of SOM. This would give us 2 Recruiters per box, roughly, not including foils. The market would flood, and the price would drop greatly. Let's say that 5000 Recruiters are now for sale. Is anyone going to pay 200 for something that readily purchasable? No. The P3K Recruiter price would likely drop to 50 (it is still hard to find, and it's pimp) and the uncommon version would be 10 at the most.
Wasteland
Tempest - 36 (40)
Judge - 4 (80)
MPR - 11 (95)
Would printing wasteland in the same set size as the example above lower its price? Yes. The original wasteland price would drop, because that Wasteland has the most copies in circulation.
The MPR wasteland wouldn't drop, because that is a Pimp card, and is highly sought after.
the Judge foil wasteland wouldn't drop because when Grim Lavamancer was printed in m12, the Judge printing did not drop.
So you're claiming that you've taken economics.
Supply, meet demand.
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Originally Posted by Arcadic View Post
scumbag
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The problem is people shouldnt be using a card game as an investment tool.
Yes reprinting cards drops the price of the card. Want to see examples? Baneslayer went from a $40+ card in M10 to a ~$15 card after its reprinting in M11. Look at all the Titans, Any planeswalker that has been reprinted in more then 1 set. Look at Grim Lavamancer reprinted in M12. Yes occasionally there is a card you can reprint and for a short time it will go up but thats not the norm.
Wizards job should be to keep the game affordable so more can play it. Certain formats of magic shouldnt be exclusive to who holds the most expensive cards. Yet thats how it is.
2) I will only agree with you that REPRINTS DO NOT CAUSE PRICE DROPS only for really limited cards, ie. reprinting them in FTV (I think they are limited), Judge promos, book promos. If they are reprinted in core sets, I think they will drop by some extend.
As a counter-example to this claim, the price of an Unlimited Berserk, which had been flat for several years, decreased noticeably, if not substantially, after FTV: Exiled was released (if Apathy House is trustworthy). Mox Diamond also showed a decline during 2009, although it may be trending upwards again.
A good example was the new core set dual lands. In M10, the lands would be worth a 5-dollar bill. Being reprinted in M11, they went for around $3. With a second reprint, you'll be lucky to get more than $2 for them.
With regards to the Modern shocklands, there are a ton of people hoarding the lands with hopes to cash out big when the next big Modern event comes around. Once these hoarders let go of their shocklands, which will probably peak at around $30 for the most desired ones, they will settle back down to the below $20 range.
As a counter-example to this claim, the price of an Unlimited Berserk, which had been flat for several years, decreased noticeably, if not substantially, after FTV: Exiled was released (if Apathy House is trustworthy). Mox Diamond also showed a decline during 2009, although it may be trending upwards again.
People keep saying this, but if you look at the actual data, it's not really true. There was fluctuation for years before the FTV reprint, and it only really leveled out *after* the 2009 reprint.
Only in very rare instances (Reflecting Pool, Time Warp) do prices go up, and only under certain conditions. Generally, this involves a card which sees little or no competitive play in Eternal or casual and is no longer legal in Standard or Extended. Thus, the card is essentially "left for dead" with no competitive environment.
However, when reprinted, it actually becomes a staple in the new Standard and/or Extended environments, giving new life (and demand) for the original and reprinted versions. The price shoots up accordingly. However, at the end of its life in Standard, the price drops once again, perhaps even more so now that the supply has increased. Occasionally, it remains increased beyond its original (pre-reprint) prices, probably because of the stickiness of prices, contributed partly by the increased awareness of the card in casual settings.
However, for each example of cards which increased during reprinting (and usually slightly), there are dozens (if not hundreds) of examples of cards which lost value due to reprinting. In some cases, the drop was quite precipitous.
Examples of cards I believe would benefit from reprinting in a Standard-legal set, assuming that they can be supported in a competitive archetype, include the following: Mind Twist, Necropotence (as mythic), Tinker (as rare), Tradewind Riders, and Psychatog. These cards are stranded without a format, either seeing no play or as one-ofs in on-color decks (due to restriction in Vintage or EDH construction rules).
Most cards would decrease. Cards that are likely to fall dramatically in value are cards like dual lands, Force of Will, Wasteland, etc. These are cards that already have an extensive supply and see extensive play, but have an even larger demand which would be met to a large extent by a reprint. Cards that would absolutely get killed in value include Grim Tutor, Loyal Retainers, Imperial Recruiter, Moat, Candelabra of Tawnos, and Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale--cards that see quite a lot of play but retain their price tags because of their extreme rarity. I imagine that Grim Tutor reprinted at rare in a core set would fetch $1 at most (it's not that great of a card), compared to the $150-200 it does today.
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Due to real-life obligations, I am taking a long break from Magic which may include missing the local Legacy GP. Apologies for not being able to keep my threads updated.
reprint FOW then prices will drop,.so everyone could have 2 or more playsets
BOP has been reprinted 10+ times at this point, and multiple times in wide-release core sets, so that's a little different from reprinting FOW in one set, once. But yeah, reprints do.
As someone who has taken more econ classes than you let me help you out. What you want is price elasticity. This is when a percentage change in price leads to a certain percentage change in demand. Obviously the lower the price goes the higher the demand will be.
So yes the decrease in price would cause increased demand, but as soon as that new demand pushes the price back up people will drop out of the market again as the price increases above their price sensitivity again.
Thanks! That's the exact word I was looking for. It's a real principle, but I guess I made some wrong assumptions about the nature of Magic.
As a counter-example to this claim, the price of an Unlimited Berserk, which had been flat for several years, decreased noticeably, if not substantially, after FTV: Exiled was released (if Apathy House is trustworthy). Mox Diamond also showed a decline during 2009, although it may be trending upwards again.
also [card]underworld dreams[card] from legends. it was a $20 card for a long time. need is a $5 card or $1.5 for a reprint.
If reprinting cards causes prices to drop, it's bad for the collectors. If it doesn't cause prices to drop, then what's the point in reprinting them?
Some cards are actually hard to get. It's not like you can go buy them at local walmart.
By hard to get it means that the card is priced at $300, but without doing the SCG thing and jacking the buy (and sell) price to the roof.
There is a percieved value of a card at $300, so there is a lot of demand around $300 but not that much higher. If there was a limited print run that demand might never get exausted.
However if everyone and thier mother can get one for $5 the $300 will never hold, and only the most minty of the mint will retain a high price for collectors.
Cards that go up in value on reprints are cards that had decent value in standard but never saw eternal play. They dropped to $0.50 when they rotated and never recovered. If the card becomes viable in a standard deck the demand goes through the roof which causes a price spike.
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
Cards that go up in value on reprints are cards that had decent value in standard but never saw eternal play. They dropped to $0.50 when they rotated and never recovered. If the card becomes viable in a standard deck the demand goes through the roof which causes a price spike.
Very simple concept. The increase in supply is a force that pushes price down.
Reprints that are standard legal, create a new pocket of demand, which can push price up.
Without that new influx of demand, there is nothing to prevent reprints from lowering card prices. Sometimes that new demand is enough to counteract the increased supply and raise prices (Reflecting Pool) and sometimes it is not.
However, many people are againg complaining that reprinting will drop the price. But is that so? I know it sounds crazy, but I feel like this might not be true.
According to the laws of supply and demand, it would seem like increasing the supply for a card in the single market would only cause that card's price to drop.
But see, after supply is increased, demand actually doesn't stay static. People who weren't going to buy a card because it was too expensive will now change their mind if the card becomes a price that is acceptable to them, especially if the card has become cheaper than what they were willing to pay. Now that the card is cheaper, demand has actually gone up!
If this sounds too weird to be true, it isn't. It's actually based on an actual economic principle. But currently, I don't have my econ book with me, so this is the best way to explain it.
Also, if my idea is true, since Magic is a card game, greater demand for cards has other implications. A format only works if it has a substantial amount of players. (See Vintage and Extended for what happens when a format doesn't) If Modern gets more players because of reprints, then even more players will probably think about joining Modern due to its popularity, which will further increase the demand for cards. Thus, the prices potentially will be even higher than what they were at before the reprints.
This probably won't work if Wizards starts reprinting rares willy-nilly, but I don't see why reprinting core cards for Modern in a sensible way isn't a good deal fort them, but for players who want to enter the format as well as players who already have cards for it.
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Reprinting does in the short term lower overall value of cards, but I don't see anyone not snapping up From the Vault packs because of the reduced price. In fact the most vocal "Reprinting is bad" people tend to buy multiple copies of from the vault products. So as long as people buy the reprints they will make reprints. Personally I want to see a FtV: Lands. With 1 of each Shock, Fetch, or Pain land in it, along with some additional older lands, like Gemstone Caverns for example.
Here's the problem about reprinting cards, while wizards will make a lot of money, and newer players will be able to more easily obtain them. What do you think happens to the people like me with the cards in hand, if they reprinted wasteland in a non-special set my $60 wastelands are now worth 5-10% of their value.
Bro you seriously need to take an economics class, if the supply of candelabra of tawnos is about 10,000 in the world (the approximated amount that exist), and then we factor out 1000ish are probably in storage and will never be heard from again, we have 2,250 playsets in the world, compared to the 300,000+ players, and now factor in, once upon a time (for a very short time) the "best deck" in legacy ran 4, you can imagine how high the card can get (peaked at over $300), now imagine we have 1,000,000 of this card (it's not far-fetched if it's in a new set), now anyone who wants a playset can find one mildly easily, why would I pay $300 for a card that I can find very easily?
By the logic you used cards getting reprinted should increase demand, but take a card like dragonskull summit (numbers approximated but close) at M10 (1,000,000 copies $12) at M11 (2,000,000 copies $3-4) M12 (3,000,000 copies $1.5) the demand can't keep up with the supply, a spike in demand needs to be far higher than what you can get from cards getting cheaper in order to absorb the sheer volume of cards opened in a new set.
I like the believe that most valuable old cards' original printings like Power 9 would retain most of their value since they are rare collector's items, even if a reissue in the form of a FTV series or collector's set had completely legal versions.
Cards like Imperial Recruiter which are expensive *only* because of their scarcity (nothing special about it) would see a huge plummet (although granted if it was in Standard legal it would still be a $25 rare since it would be pretty good in standard). After such a card rotates it would be worthless, although I feel the original printing would still be much more valuable due to its scarcity and novelty.
Cards like Reflecting Pool when reprinted saw a small bump due to being Standard legal and then a small deflation when it rotated.
Some cards, at least their rare scarce original printings, might not go down for the same reason why a collector's edition or reissue of Amazing Spider-man #1 won't affect the value of an original. But some cards are only valuable due to their playability and demand. These are the cards I have no sympathy to a collector if their value drops. Imagine if Force of Will was banned in Legacy (not happening, I know, but for the sake of argument). Its price would tank. If it was reprinted its price would tank. There's nothing inherently special about the Alliances printing other than the fact that anything with blue cards in legacy runs 4.
I'm not really sure.
From the Vault: Instants, please?!
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1) Reprint Amount is far less than the player base. <= in which we see will NEVER happen.
Lets say, you said that if Card A is reprinted, that means supply for it would've gone up, this means that the price for the cards would've gone down due to large supplies. You said that players that once did not wanted to buy the cards, but would buy it now since it is cheaper <- this is true that I agree.
But then, think about it, lets say that if the Reprinted amount was less than the player base, then this would make the price of it come down a bit, but then it will shoot back up because the supply still doesnt fill the demand. This is best said with FTV Mox Diamond.
But, if it is reprinted like in a big set, lets say Birds of Paradise, you could tell that the TOTAL amount of birds in the market totally exceeds the player base, while this does cause players that never owned birds before to get it, but it will not increase the price, because they are simply too many of it...
So.. while you are right about price being cheaper would increase demand, what you missed is that, Price will always still be determined by Supply vs Demand, your example simply says increased demand.
Let me ask you. Promo Book Jace, at the moment it is like $80, as far as I know that there were only 1000 printed (from wizards site)
You tell me: In what situation would cause the price to remain a high price after reprinting?
A) If the card was reprinted for another 1000 copies
B) If the card was reprinted for another 1000000 copies?
Wow, my econ class was actually the inspiration for this post. Seems like YOU haven't been to an econ class before.
I'm not sure where you're getting that if Wizards does a reprint of a rare card, it suddenly goes from 1,000 copies to 1,000,000 copies of a given card. That'd be ridiculous. It'd be up to Wizards to decide what would be the appropriate amount to reprint so that they could balance making money versus affecting market prices too much. So far, they have done a pretty good job with their FtV sets. I looked at the price history of one card, Mox Diamond, from that set, and the price is lower now than it was before the release of the set. However, the highest prices for the card ocurred six months after the FtV reprint was released. So it doesn't seem like the supply was what was totally affecting the price.
Also, for your Dragonskull Summit example, I think you're misunderstanding the price discrimination that singles-buying Magic players have. How many players are not going to buy a card because it is worth $5 instead of $4? By comparison, how many people would buy a card if it was worth $32 instead of $40? In both cases the cards dropped by 20%, but a difference of $8 verus $1 makes a big difference.
Why wouldn't this happen? I'm confused. It clearly happened with FtV Mox Diamond.
It drops prices for the short-term and increases the amount of players who have the cards. But by the long term, the players will all still have their cards, but the prices would have gone back up to equilibrium again.
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The only cards I think Wizards should never reprint are those on the reserved list (For obvious reasons of trust). The FTV lists breached that, but their limited value made the impact minimal.
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Just like I believe that Force of Will, if it was printed as a Judges Promo, it will not have any impact on the prices of old ones.
BUT if it was done for like FNM, then you will see the price tank.
Do you see what I mean by the comparision? If it is printed as Judge promo only, this is what I mean by, a reprint that is NOT enough on a mass scale (Ie. look at sword of Fire and Ice)
But if you said reprinting in like, Core set, then this will have a potential to go 'overboard' with supplies, because we do know that alot of them will get opened up.
I hope I made it clearer for you?
Summary if you still dont understand:
1) Your first post only talks about how the lower prices will increase the demand. But you did not take supply into consideration. Prices will only drop if the supplier is higher than demand. If the demand increase due to the price drops, it will start to go up. If the demand does go over the supply, then the prices will start to increase because there are not enough supplied. But if demand stops before the actual supply, then you will see the price stabalize, or even drop as time goes. In fact, the price may also influence the demand as well. Because if lets say the buyers of the cards had in mind that they were going to make a profit, but then the market stablizes at a price that they do not like, they might lose demand for it, causing the price to decrease alot more (chain reaction) Just think of it as the stockmarket, if you see a card losing value like $1 a day, would you sell your copy while its still high price? (Ie. Time Reversal), That is the example of dropping demand = dropping price as well.
2) I will only agree with you that REPRINTS DO NOT CAUSE PRICE DROPS only for really limited cards, ie. reprinting them in FTV (I think they are limited), Judge promos, book promos. If they are reprinted in core sets, I think they will drop by some extend.
Instead of just looking at price vs demand, you should look at the relationship between demand vs supply as well
Heck, Its been 14 years since I've been in Econ, but I think Price vs Supply vs Demand is basic common sense
So yes the decrease in price would cause increased demand, but as soon as that new demand pushes the price back up people will drop out of the market again as the price increases above their price sensitivity again.
1) they reprint an older card, no longer in standard (for quite some time)
2) they reprint a more recent card (gideon jura for example)
in the first scenario:
let's accept that Wizards won't reprint 'broken' cards, or those that will ruin standard..... with this in mind, it's likely that any good cards from older sets will have little or no impact on the value of the original version, but may be wildly less or more expensive as a reprint.... for example, solemn simulacrum being reprinted has had little effect on the original card price, but the M12 version has skyrocketed. in the example of older, more collectable cards - it's likely that their value would not change, but the new reprint's value would be entirely set on how well it functioned within the standard metagame.
in the second:
the reprinting of a more recent card does significantly lower the price. but it's not simply because there are more of them around - it's more to do with people assuming there's more around, and then being less willing to pay high prices.... remember, an object is only ever worth as much as someone will pay for it.
Imperial Recruiter is a 200 dollar uncommon, that is very hard to find. It also sees play in legacy, which is driving its price. If it was reprinted as an uncommon or a rare in a new set, the price would plummet. The supply would rise greatly.
Wasteland is a 40 dollar uncommon, that is not as hard to find. Wasteland has had three printings. the MPR Wasteland is worth the most out of the three, followed by the Judge Promo and then the Tempest Wasteland.
Now let's do some math.
Currently, there are 6 Recruiters for sale according to MTGcardsinfo. They vary in price, but to keep things easy, let's make it 200.
6 Recruiters @ 200 dollars Per. Let's say that Recruit is printed in a set the size of SOM. This would give us 2 Recruiters per box, roughly, not including foils. The market would flood, and the price would drop greatly. Let's say that 5000 Recruiters are now for sale. Is anyone going to pay 200 for something that readily purchasable? No. The P3K Recruiter price would likely drop to 50 (it is still hard to find, and it's pimp) and the uncommon version would be 10 at the most.
Wasteland
Tempest - 36 (40)
Judge - 4 (80)
MPR - 11 (95)
Would printing wasteland in the same set size as the example above lower its price? Yes. The original wasteland price would drop, because that Wasteland has the most copies in circulation.
The MPR wasteland wouldn't drop, because that is a Pimp card, and is highly sought after.
the Judge foil wasteland wouldn't drop because when Grim Lavamancer was printed in m12, the Judge printing did not drop.
So you're claiming that you've taken economics.
Supply, meet demand.
scumbag
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Yes reprinting cards drops the price of the card. Want to see examples? Baneslayer went from a $40+ card in M10 to a ~$15 card after its reprinting in M11. Look at all the Titans, Any planeswalker that has been reprinted in more then 1 set. Look at Grim Lavamancer reprinted in M12. Yes occasionally there is a card you can reprint and for a short time it will go up but thats not the norm.
Wizards job should be to keep the game affordable so more can play it. Certain formats of magic shouldnt be exclusive to who holds the most expensive cards. Yet thats how it is.
As a counter-example to this claim, the price of an Unlimited Berserk, which had been flat for several years, decreased noticeably, if not substantially, after FTV: Exiled was released (if Apathy House is trustworthy). Mox Diamond also showed a decline during 2009, although it may be trending upwards again.
reprint FOW then prices will drop,.so everyone could have 2 or more playsets
thanks to DNC of Heroes of the Plane Studios for the coolest sig
vintage-WBdark timesBW
legacy-BGRJund-51/60BGR
RBBob Sligh 48/60BR
GRone land belcherRG
URBTES-54/60URB
Fun deck-BBBBKobolds stormBBBB
With regards to the Modern shocklands, there are a ton of people hoarding the lands with hopes to cash out big when the next big Modern event comes around. Once these hoarders let go of their shocklands, which will probably peak at around $30 for the most desired ones, they will settle back down to the below $20 range.
People keep saying this, but if you look at the actual data, it's not really true. There was fluctuation for years before the FTV reprint, and it only really leveled out *after* the 2009 reprint.
--S
Only in very rare instances (Reflecting Pool, Time Warp) do prices go up, and only under certain conditions. Generally, this involves a card which sees little or no competitive play in Eternal or casual and is no longer legal in Standard or Extended. Thus, the card is essentially "left for dead" with no competitive environment.
However, when reprinted, it actually becomes a staple in the new Standard and/or Extended environments, giving new life (and demand) for the original and reprinted versions. The price shoots up accordingly. However, at the end of its life in Standard, the price drops once again, perhaps even more so now that the supply has increased. Occasionally, it remains increased beyond its original (pre-reprint) prices, probably because of the stickiness of prices, contributed partly by the increased awareness of the card in casual settings.
However, for each example of cards which increased during reprinting (and usually slightly), there are dozens (if not hundreds) of examples of cards which lost value due to reprinting. In some cases, the drop was quite precipitous.
Examples of cards I believe would benefit from reprinting in a Standard-legal set, assuming that they can be supported in a competitive archetype, include the following: Mind Twist, Necropotence (as mythic), Tinker (as rare), Tradewind Riders, and Psychatog. These cards are stranded without a format, either seeing no play or as one-ofs in on-color decks (due to restriction in Vintage or EDH construction rules).
Most cards would decrease. Cards that are likely to fall dramatically in value are cards like dual lands, Force of Will, Wasteland, etc. These are cards that already have an extensive supply and see extensive play, but have an even larger demand which would be met to a large extent by a reprint. Cards that would absolutely get killed in value include Grim Tutor, Loyal Retainers, Imperial Recruiter, Moat, Candelabra of Tawnos, and Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale--cards that see quite a lot of play but retain their price tags because of their extreme rarity. I imagine that Grim Tutor reprinted at rare in a core set would fetch $1 at most (it's not that great of a card), compared to the $150-200 it does today.
Legacy
UWR Miracles UWR
GWB Maverick GWB
GB Elves GB
UBR ANT UBR
RG Combo Lands RG
Vintage
BUG BUG Fish BUG
Modern
GBW
Junk PodMagic: the BuylistingBOP has been reprinted 10+ times at this point, and multiple times in wide-release core sets, so that's a little different from reprinting FOW in one set, once. But yeah, reprints do.
Lands WUBG
EDH:
Doran WBG
Thanks! That's the exact word I was looking for. It's a real principle, but I guess I made some wrong assumptions about the nature of Magic.
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also [card]underworld dreams[card] from legends. it was a $20 card for a long time. need is a $5 card or $1.5 for a reprint.
Some cards are actually hard to get. It's not like you can go buy them at local walmart.
By hard to get it means that the card is priced at $300, but without doing the SCG thing and jacking the buy (and sell) price to the roof.
There is a percieved value of a card at $300, so there is a lot of demand around $300 but not that much higher. If there was a limited print run that demand might never get exausted.
However if everyone and thier mother can get one for $5 the $300 will never hold, and only the most minty of the mint will retain a high price for collectors.
Cards that go up in value on reprints are cards that had decent value in standard but never saw eternal play. They dropped to $0.50 when they rotated and never recovered. If the card becomes viable in a standard deck the demand goes through the roof which causes a price spike.
Very simple concept. The increase in supply is a force that pushes price down.
Reprints that are standard legal, create a new pocket of demand, which can push price up.
Without that new influx of demand, there is nothing to prevent reprints from lowering card prices. Sometimes that new demand is enough to counteract the increased supply and raise prices (Reflecting Pool) and sometimes it is not.