A collector's set like FTV will not have enough supply to push down the prices greatly.
A standard legal or anthologies set however will drop the price significantly, as they tend to have larger print runs.
A large set reprint will also affect the price greater than a small set reprint, since more of a large set is opened.
wizards prints enough cards today to meet demand for each product depending on its audience. So far every speculated product (Commander precons, DD Elspeth vs. Tezzeret, DD Jace vs. Chandra japanese edition) has had an overload of available copies on the market. Even FTV relics seems to have suffered from this available supply in that many people have sealed copies readily on hand that it's significantly greater than the older Dragons and Exiled. I know a few stores that overbought Premium Deck Fire&Lightning in speculation that the singles would cause them to double in price. Most stores were almost giving them away in my area for a short time and now they're easily available at big box stores between $15-20 a piece without a lot of trouble.
Wizards has gotten a pretty tight grasp on their product lines now to print enough and make them available. The hype itself is selling them more now as i know plenty who had bought all these products above msrp (some prices were crazy...i know many who paid $50 for DD Jace and Chandra, $40-50 for Commander precons, $40 for Elspeth and Tez, etc) and the vendors will take the cash to the bank as long as they can do so. The best bet is to either get at MSRP the day of or wait until the market dies down 2 weeks later and these are littering the shelves for that price or less.
On the topic of buy ins for Modern, you can buy 1 (and sometimes 2) complete legacy decks for the same price as having the complete "arsenal" of modern staples, so i won't say the format is too cost prohibitive yes. Sets of 40 shocks is easily $700-800 range from what i'm hearing. Realistically you don't need them either, here's an example of zoo related prices.
4x Wild Nacatl ($1-2/set?)
4x Kird Ape ($2-4/set)
4x Tarmogoyf ($250-260/set)
4x Qasali Pridemage ($1-2/set)
4x Knight of the Reliquary ($32/set)
4x Grim Lavamancer ($20/set)
4x Lightning Bolt ($1/set)
4x Path to Exile ($10-12/set)
4x Lightning Helix ($6-8/set)
3x Sacred Foundry ($30-40)
1x Temple Garden ($15-20)
2x Stomping Ground ($30-40)
4x Arid Mesa ($36/set)
4x Other zendikar fetches ($32-36/set)
1-2x Horizon Canopy ($5-7 a piece)
1-2x Grove of the Burnwillows ($6-8)
Basic Lands.
So far this will probably cost $450-500 range. Realistically if you have played magic a year or so you'll have enough of a card pool from playing at least standard you can probably cut what you need down to:
4x Tarmogoyf ($250-260)
4x Kird Ape ($2-4)
3x Sacred Foundry ($30-40)
2x Stomping Ground ($30-40)
1x Temple Garden ($15-20)
1-2x Horizon Canopy ($5-7 a piece)
1-2x Grove of the Burnwillows ($3-4)
And i'm sure you can get it for $300-350. The higher end of standard decks since the banned list, and assuming you can't get this in trade.
If you've played legacy, or even just have a huge collection from playing the last 5 years you'll probably have enough stuff to build decks with, or trade for what you need. For my zoo list from legacy over to modern I am missing
2 Sacred Foundry ($20-25)
1 Temple Garden ($15-20)
2 Stomping Ground ($30-40)
1 Grove of the Burnwillows ($3-4)
I have enough shocks i can trade for all 5, and grove of the burnwillows are cheap enough i can buy one or trade for one at a PTQ/SCG open no problem, maybe even a local tournament if one pops up.
For fish i could port from legacy only missing the mutavaults.
Anyone who has played a while, or plays legacy will have no problem adapting to modern. Anyone who plays only standard might have to make an investment, but it's much less than legacy. For the rise of players who were jumping into legacy from standard during the jace era because the cost was high (most expensive Standard decks were reaching the low end of good legacy decks) can also now have an outlet to trade out their legacy staples for the much cheaper modern if cost has been an issue to completing their decks or building a legacy collection.
The difference with investing into eternal formats is the value stays much longer. Due to modern having the reprint policy ineffective there's a chance staples will be reprinted in various methods and keep the price low on entry into the format, but regardless of card prices once you buy a card for the format you can use it forever unless it gets banned. It causes the formats to move much slower and makes it more appealing than buying new cards every year for standard (or trading for them) so the barrier of entry is not an issue, especially while it's still as low as it is.
If we're going to talk about this in basic econ terms, then you have to consider whether supply or demand increases more. Lets look at Leyline of the Void, for example. That card saw no play in standard, but still sees plenty of legacy play. The increase in supply vastly outweighed the increase in demand, so the price plummeted. Let's look at Solemn Simulacrum, then, for a case of the opposite situation. Solemn returning to standard INCREASED his price, because the demand for him increased more than the supply did. So, you have to think about that question when determining what will happen as a result of a reprint. If we're going to talk about the shocks, I would guess that a reprint (in a standard setting) actually wouldn't drop their price all that much, since they would be coveted for standard play as well as Modern/Commander
What I actually don't understand is that the people who are "collectors" shouldn't really care about pricing, so a reprint to them shouldn't matter much. "We need to recollect them again!" No, you don't. That's a decision you decide to make, and one that shouldn't effect the entire public whether or not you would like to be a MTG grubbing collector. The monetary factor shouldn't matter much to you, a collector, because you're NEVER going to sell it. In fact, you most likely have it just to rub it in other's faces to say that you do have what they possibly want.
Reprinting will effect card prices however. New or old art has a different premium, dependent upon the popular choice and this is apparent in a few cards that have been reprinted and the original art sitting at like $6 and the new art being about $10. Example would be Wrath of God.
Personally, I would LOVE to see my Baron Sengir in a new frame, or with new art, or both! I would love to build a legacy deck without needing to sell my first child because people are money hungry! Thank you reserve list!:mad:
Really hate the "collectors need to suck it" argument.
What yall really mean to say is "anyone who spent more money(and or has more money) than me on MTG needs to deal with losing lots of money so my more limited income(or excess cash) can afford to play just like you do.
There are plenty of PLAYERS who get hurt badly by reprints, you know the people who buy cases, singles etc and actually spend vast sums of money per capita on this game. I get that not everyone can do this, but despite some peoples wishes this game by its very nature(randomized booster packs), favors the wealthier.
WOTC doesnt care that a format is expensive, they only care to make sure they can maximize their dollars from said format. Thats why modern was made, because its a format they might can capitalize on the "eternal craze" currently sweeping the country/world. Its not because they like yall playing formats(legacy) that generate almost no income for them.
What I actually don't understand is that the people who are "collectors" shouldn't really care about pricing, so a reprint to them shouldn't matter much. "We need to recollect them again!"
Is the text you put in quotation marks an actual argument you've seen or heard? Or is it just something you made up and attribute to collectors so that you can be mad at them?
That's a decision you decide to make, and one that shouldn't effect the entire public whether or not you would like to be a MTG grubbing collector. The monetary factor shouldn't matter much to you, a collector, because you're NEVER going to sell it.
The monetary factor matters to collectors for the same reason it matters to everyone else. No one likes to feel as if they have lost money. People are less inclined to collect an item if they feel it has little or no long term value.
Also, plenty of collectors sell their items. It isn't always a lifelong commitment since tastes, preferences, and financial situations can change over time.
In fact, you most likely have it just to rub it in other's faces to say that you do have what they possibly want.
I think you know that's a completely unsubstantiated claim. If you're going to be angry at collectors, you should at least have good reasons.
The problem is people shouldnt be using a card game as an investment tool.
...
Wizards job should be to keep the game affordable so more can play it. Certain formats of magic shouldnt be exclusive to who holds the most expensive cards. Yet thats how it is.
The thing to keep in mind is that there is a great deal of cost involved in developing and supporting the game. (By supporting, I mean the cost of distributing packs, running tournaments, advertising, etc.) There's just no way I could imagine that Magic could be distributed for free to everyone. And because of that, there is always going to be some group that feels excluded due to the cost.
Let me say it another way. WotC needs to make a profit in order for the game to exist at all. In order for them to make a profit, they need to provide a product that customers value more than their own money. That is, the customer has to be willing to give up their money in exchange for WotC's product. The fact that cards have value is not a bad thing. It is a necessary thing.
What I actually don't understand is that the people who are "collectors" shouldn't really care about pricing, so a reprint to them shouldn't matter much. "We need to recollect them again!" No, you don't. That's a decision you decide to make, and one that shouldn't effect the entire public whether or not you would like to be a MTG grubbing collector. The monetary factor shouldn't matter much to you, a collector, because you're NEVER going to sell it. In fact, you most likely have it just to rub it in other's faces to say that you do have what they possibly want.
Reprinting will effect card prices however. New or old art has a different premium, dependent upon the popular choice and this is apparent in a few cards that have been reprinted and the original art sitting at like $6 and the new art being about $10. Example would be Wrath of God.
Personally, I would LOVE to see my Baron Sengir in a new frame, or with new art, or both! I would love to build a legacy deck without needing to sell my first child because people are money hungry! Thank you reserve list!:mad:
Im going to say a couple simple things in response to your entire post, and then focus on the actual particular topic of the thread: Anyone who spends money on the game, whether they may think they are, or not, is investing in the game in some form or another. One of the reasons why the game does so well, is do to it having the healthiest secondary market of ANY CCG in existance, heck, magic has an economy all its own, which is rather amazing to think about. Because people have confidence that the cards they purchase will relatively speaking retain value, and they can thusly get their money back out of it if they need to, then people are more willing to spend money on the cards (especially those with less money) because if something comes up, they can liquidate and get most of their money back out of it again.
This is a trend Ive seen very clearly time and time again with magic players. People always harp on the collectors as being the reason magic can be so expensive. In the early days of magic without those collectors, and the creation of the reserved list to calm collectors fears, magic would not be here today (given how huge a part of the buying that collectors made up back then, and wizards feeling they NEEDED to institute the reserved list, I dont see how this would be refutable). Wizards knows how important the secondary market is to the game, and thusly tend to be careful about mass reprintings that could harm the value of a great deal of cards all at once. A reprint here, and a reprint there are fine, as overall the affect on most people's entire collections would be minimal, and they would be fine seeing card X,card Y, or card Z decrease in value, because cards A-W are still fine. So long as people are confident, especially those with little money, than them spending out $10-$20+ on a card will be something they can be reasonable assured to get back at some point if needed, then people will be willing to spend such money more freely.
As for the specific topic of the thread, in most cases, reprinting will cause the price of the card to drop. More supply being added without a significant addition of demand often tends to send the pricing pressures downward. In cases where supply and demand both were relatively low to begin with (say on something old that was mostly just popular with the casual crowd), and the card gets reprinted in a standard-legal set, if the card does have the demand for standard/extended and the renewed exposure gets more people from casual/EDH interested in buying it, then the card could rise in value. It all just depends on the new demand for the card in the format its being reprinted in (typically standard).
Bottom line is supply and demand apply. If a card is being reprinted and it's demand isn't going to change (birds, wrath, titans) then it's price will go down. If it will have new increased demand (solemn, reflecting pool) which is greater than the increase in quantity, then it will rise in price. There isn't a whole lot more to it than that. (this is similar to what Jeff said above, but said more simply)
However, many people are againg complaining that reprinting will drop the price. But is that so? I know it sounds crazy, but I feel like this might not be true.
According to the laws of supply and demand, it would seem like increasing the supply for a card in the single market would only cause that card's price to drop.
But see, after supply is increased, demand actually doesn't stay static. People who weren't going to buy a card because it was too expensive will now change their mind if the card becomes a price that is acceptable to them, especially if the card has become cheaper than what they were willing to pay. Now that the card is cheaper, demand has actually gone up!
What we observe in this relationship is not so much an increase in demand but an increase in quantity demanded. There is some crucial differences here. Changes in quantity demanded implies an endogenous change which is explained by the present demand function. When the price of a good declines to an acceptable price, it is the quantity demanded that changes (see attached chart). More specifically, at the present price P, there is an excess supply of a particular good (given reprints), hence resulting in the decline of prices until quantity demanded = the available quantity supplied.
There is no reason for the demand function itself to change in this case unless we are speaking of a case of general equilibrium (which does not apply here as supply considerations are generally fixed with mandated copies of each cards for each print runs are roughly proportionate to its rarity -- i.e. just because Primeval Titan is pricey, Wizards would not increase production of Primeval Titan and reduce the production of Frost Titan). As a net effect, the prices of reprints should invariably drop, ceteris paribus. Demand of a product are unlikely to change due to reprints (unless the reprints are differentiated from the original versions -- i.e. different art, misprints, etc.) -- though in my example of Primeval Titan, quantity demanded might actually fall further as rational actors foresee Valakut.dec phased out and indeed, banned from Valakut.dec.
If this sounds too weird to be true, it isn't. It's actually based on an actual economic principle. But currently, I don't have my econ book with me, so this is the best way to explain it.
Also, if my idea is true, since Magic is a card game, greater demand for cards has other implications. A format only works if it has a substantial amount of players. (See Vintage and Extended for what happens when a format doesn't) If Modern gets more players because of reprints, then even more players will probably think about joining Modern due to its popularity, which will further increase the demand for cards. Thus, the prices potentially will be even higher than what they were at before the reprints.
This probably won't work if Wizards starts reprinting rares willy-nilly, but I don't see why reprinting core cards for Modern in a sensible way isn't a good deal fort them, but for players who want to enter the format as well as players who already have cards for it.
That said, the effects of a new format may be harder to gauge -- indeed, any changes in prices are dubious. Prices of a particular card are unlikely to increase BECAUSE of reprints but it would increase if the demand for that card (i.e. based on "preference" -- or in Magic-verse, metagame preferences, deck viability, etc.) offsets the price decrease due to reprints.
1) Wizards will reprint (in promo version if necessary) every card with secondary market value they can. Their goal is profit, period, and this is profitable. They have devalued a huge portion of the secondary market going right back to Alpha and the trend shows that they're going to continue to do that.
2) Reprinting a card in a core set halves its value, approximately. BoP went from $16 before Ravnica to $8, then to $4, then $2, and now it barely fetches a dollar. Mileage may vary of course, but yes, reprinting a card almost always drops its value. I can think of 100s of cards reprinted in the last decade that went through an immediate and drastic price drop, and 0 that didn't. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, I'm just saying I don't think I've ever seen it.*
* If/when it does happen, it's a rare case and involves certain factors, such as the card goes through a massive popularity spike due to bannings, unbannings, metagame changes, etc.
I agree that 99% of reprinted cards go down in value. Supply and Demand tells you that.
But how do you explain Solemn Simulacrum? It was a $5-7 card for the longest time and now it fetches $10+. This is despite not just one BUT TWO recent reprintings (Commander + M12).
Is this just be an anomalous bubble or can other cards duplicate this feat?
I agree that 99% of reprinted cards go down in value. Supply and Demand tells you that.
But how do you explain Solemn Simulacrum? It was a $5-7 card for the longest time and now it fetches $10+. This is despite not just one BUT TWO recent reprintings (Commander + M12).
Is this just be an anomalous bubble or can other cards duplicate this feat?
Solemn is one of those exceptions. It commanded a $7 or so price tag before the reprint due to casual/EDH demand alone, and upon getting reprinted (the commander decks really didnt affect the price much at all given the currently released print run of commander decks and there only being 1 of them in 1 of the decks compared to the previous supply from mirrodin and people not typically selling them when they openned them. The reprinting in m12 dropped the price initially down to $5 or so, only to see the card show up in tournament results in decent numbers and demand rocketed back up as now you have standard, EDH, casual, and possibly even extended demand to work with, standard of course causing the big jump we saw there as people werent initially giving it a ton of attention for standard until the results showed otherwise.
Basically what Jeff is saying is that people used to need 1 Simulcrum for thier commander deck, and now they need that plus 4 for thier Standard deck. Demand has more than outstripped recent supply.
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With most card games, you shouldnt use them as investment tools. Magic however is 100% unique simply due to it having a stronger secondary market, than most entire games have markets period. Putting this into perspective, I plugged in two simple terms into ebay search: Barbie, and Magic the Gathering. Barbie came up with 164,000 listings, Magic the Gathering on the other hand, came up with 387,000 listings. For completed listings Magic the gathering came up with 145,000 listings, while Barbie came up with only 124,000 listings. A little closer on that comparison obviously, but interesting when you think about it.
People "invest" into magic because of magic's strong secondary market. Because often magic cards can be perceived as a better bet than investing in many other more typical things, simply due to how strong of a market it is, how popular it is, and because its proven that no matter the economy, and often in spite of the economy, it continues to do better and better.
People are looking at anything to invest in that they may view as safe, and while magic cards may certainly seem like an odd choice in that regard, those little pieces of popular cardboard are investments to a lot of people. To some, its simply something to spend their money on for their entertainment, that unlike most forms of entertainment that people spend money on, is one that you can actually get most/all of your money back out of if you want to and nearly any time.
The secondary market of the game, that supply/demand equasion is a large part of how magic continues to be so popular even after 18 years of being on the market, the first CCG, and still the strongest.
Anyhow, sorry for the lengthy post, the point I was simply trying to get across was that investment in and of itself isnt a bad thing within the game, its simply a part of what the game has become.
But how do you explain Solemn Simulacrum? It was a $5-7 card for the longest time and now it fetches $10+. This is despite not just one BUT TWO recent reprintings (Commander + M12).
It is now Standard Legal. It wasn't before. After it rotates, it will go back down, probably lower than it was before M12.
It is now Standard Legal. It wasn't before. After it rotates, it will go back down, probably lower than it was before M12.
It also doesn't hurt that the new art is pretty good; some with playsets of the Sad Robot will still want the new, just for that; if the new art wasn't liked by many, demand would show more of a spread between old and new. I do agree that it'll drop significantly once it rotates out of standard though.
Collectible and Investment are not inherently mutually inclusive.
Yes it's a collectible trading card game. But collectible does not mean there's value* Value of course can be different. Some things have strictly personal, value, memorabilia/nostalgia. But monetary value can be subjective, to a degree, though in the end it's what the market will bear and what buyers are willing to pay.
Most of us might not think much of some crusty old stamp from 1927 for example, yeah it's old and neat but who would pay $700 for such a thing? I boggle at it when I see MtG collectors drooling over misprint or cut cards for example.
At the risk of this being too long, here's my problem. As both a collector and player of MtG - I both appreciate and despise the secondary market. Without it there are cards I would never have seen, except maybe outside of a tourney, when I first played in the mid 90s. It's directly tied to the fan and player base and without them the game is nothing.
But as a player I HATE HATE HATE the way the collectible aspects of the game *impede* the ability to play and compete. Despite the fact that I do own old cards of value I really don't care, and I'd be happy if, for the sake of playing and competition, they reprinted and diminished scarcity of high play value cards.
Besides - printing and selling cards is where WotC/Hasbro make their money.
The secondary market accounts for a large part of why people are willing to pay the money they do for the product though. If wizards just mass-reprinted cards anytime they got expensive, then there would be no stable secondary market, and the economy of the game would collapse. If people couldnt feel they could get value out of the packs/boxes that they are openning, then wizards wouldnt sell nearly as many boxes, and their business would collapse. Its a huge balancing act. The secondary market needs wizards to be smart about how they handle things, and wizards needs a strong secondary market to help them sell product at the strong rate that they do to continue to do as well as they have been.
Reprints here and there are fine of course, but its a process, and thats part of why they are creating modern, due to perceived demand, as well as due to being able to reprint stuff as needed and not have something like the reserved list for legacy/vintage hanging over their heads.
MTGO of course has none of these restrictions, and so they can do what they want there which I think will help online legacy a lot in the long-run as far as growth is concerned.
ME 1-4 drafts do happen (not sure if they will keep doing 1-3 or do 2-4 or what) but that certainly does help legacy as does the ability to print precon decks with no reserve requirement.
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This is an old post but I think imperial recruiter's reprinting (and mana drain...and vampiric tutor, among others) hammers home who's correct. Recruiter is currently sitting at $10.
A collector's set like FTV will not have enough supply to push down the prices greatly.
A standard legal or anthologies set however will drop the price significantly, as they tend to have larger print runs.
A large set reprint will also affect the price greater than a small set reprint, since more of a large set is opened.
wizards prints enough cards today to meet demand for each product depending on its audience. So far every speculated product (Commander precons, DD Elspeth vs. Tezzeret, DD Jace vs. Chandra japanese edition) has had an overload of available copies on the market. Even FTV relics seems to have suffered from this available supply in that many people have sealed copies readily on hand that it's significantly greater than the older Dragons and Exiled. I know a few stores that overbought Premium Deck Fire&Lightning in speculation that the singles would cause them to double in price. Most stores were almost giving them away in my area for a short time and now they're easily available at big box stores between $15-20 a piece without a lot of trouble.
Wizards has gotten a pretty tight grasp on their product lines now to print enough and make them available. The hype itself is selling them more now as i know plenty who had bought all these products above msrp (some prices were crazy...i know many who paid $50 for DD Jace and Chandra, $40-50 for Commander precons, $40 for Elspeth and Tez, etc) and the vendors will take the cash to the bank as long as they can do so. The best bet is to either get at MSRP the day of or wait until the market dies down 2 weeks later and these are littering the shelves for that price or less.
On the topic of buy ins for Modern, you can buy 1 (and sometimes 2) complete legacy decks for the same price as having the complete "arsenal" of modern staples, so i won't say the format is too cost prohibitive yes. Sets of 40 shocks is easily $700-800 range from what i'm hearing. Realistically you don't need them either, here's an example of zoo related prices.
4x Wild Nacatl ($1-2/set?)
4x Kird Ape ($2-4/set)
4x Tarmogoyf ($250-260/set)
4x Qasali Pridemage ($1-2/set)
4x Knight of the Reliquary ($32/set)
4x Grim Lavamancer ($20/set)
4x Lightning Bolt ($1/set)
4x Path to Exile ($10-12/set)
4x Lightning Helix ($6-8/set)
3x Sacred Foundry ($30-40)
1x Temple Garden ($15-20)
2x Stomping Ground ($30-40)
4x Arid Mesa ($36/set)
4x Other zendikar fetches ($32-36/set)
1-2x Horizon Canopy ($5-7 a piece)
1-2x Grove of the Burnwillows ($6-8)
Basic Lands.
So far this will probably cost $450-500 range. Realistically if you have played magic a year or so you'll have enough of a card pool from playing at least standard you can probably cut what you need down to:
4x Tarmogoyf ($250-260)
4x Kird Ape ($2-4)
3x Sacred Foundry ($30-40)
2x Stomping Ground ($30-40)
1x Temple Garden ($15-20)
1-2x Horizon Canopy ($5-7 a piece)
1-2x Grove of the Burnwillows ($3-4)
And i'm sure you can get it for $300-350. The higher end of standard decks since the banned list, and assuming you can't get this in trade.
If you've played legacy, or even just have a huge collection from playing the last 5 years you'll probably have enough stuff to build decks with, or trade for what you need. For my zoo list from legacy over to modern I am missing
2 Sacred Foundry ($20-25)
1 Temple Garden ($15-20)
2 Stomping Ground ($30-40)
1 Grove of the Burnwillows ($3-4)
I have enough shocks i can trade for all 5, and grove of the burnwillows are cheap enough i can buy one or trade for one at a PTQ/SCG open no problem, maybe even a local tournament if one pops up.
For fish i could port from legacy only missing the mutavaults.
Anyone who has played a while, or plays legacy will have no problem adapting to modern. Anyone who plays only standard might have to make an investment, but it's much less than legacy. For the rise of players who were jumping into legacy from standard during the jace era because the cost was high (most expensive Standard decks were reaching the low end of good legacy decks) can also now have an outlet to trade out their legacy staples for the much cheaper modern if cost has been an issue to completing their decks or building a legacy collection.
The difference with investing into eternal formats is the value stays much longer. Due to modern having the reprint policy ineffective there's a chance staples will be reprinted in various methods and keep the price low on entry into the format, but regardless of card prices once you buy a card for the format you can use it forever unless it gets banned. It causes the formats to move much slower and makes it more appealing than buying new cards every year for standard (or trading for them) so the barrier of entry is not an issue, especially while it's still as low as it is.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=341469
Reprinting will effect card prices however. New or old art has a different premium, dependent upon the popular choice and this is apparent in a few cards that have been reprinted and the original art sitting at like $6 and the new art being about $10. Example would be Wrath of God.
Personally, I would LOVE to see my Baron Sengir in a new frame, or with new art, or both! I would love to build a legacy deck without needing to sell my first child because people are money hungry! Thank you reserve list!:mad:
What yall really mean to say is "anyone who spent more money(and or has more money) than me on MTG needs to deal with losing lots of money so my more limited income(or excess cash) can afford to play just like you do.
There are plenty of PLAYERS who get hurt badly by reprints, you know the people who buy cases, singles etc and actually spend vast sums of money per capita on this game. I get that not everyone can do this, but despite some peoples wishes this game by its very nature(randomized booster packs), favors the wealthier.
WOTC doesnt care that a format is expensive, they only care to make sure they can maximize their dollars from said format. Thats why modern was made, because its a format they might can capitalize on the "eternal craze" currently sweeping the country/world. Its not because they like yall playing formats(legacy) that generate almost no income for them.
Yes i am the same guy who trades/sells on MOTL AND Wizards of the Coast and i trade on POJO.
Is the text you put in quotation marks an actual argument you've seen or heard? Or is it just something you made up and attribute to collectors so that you can be mad at them?
The monetary factor matters to collectors for the same reason it matters to everyone else. No one likes to feel as if they have lost money. People are less inclined to collect an item if they feel it has little or no long term value.
Also, plenty of collectors sell their items. It isn't always a lifelong commitment since tastes, preferences, and financial situations can change over time.
I think you know that's a completely unsubstantiated claim. If you're going to be angry at collectors, you should at least have good reasons.
The thing to keep in mind is that there is a great deal of cost involved in developing and supporting the game. (By supporting, I mean the cost of distributing packs, running tournaments, advertising, etc.) There's just no way I could imagine that Magic could be distributed for free to everyone. And because of that, there is always going to be some group that feels excluded due to the cost.
Let me say it another way. WotC needs to make a profit in order for the game to exist at all. In order for them to make a profit, they need to provide a product that customers value more than their own money. That is, the customer has to be willing to give up their money in exchange for WotC's product. The fact that cards have value is not a bad thing. It is a necessary thing.
Im going to say a couple simple things in response to your entire post, and then focus on the actual particular topic of the thread: Anyone who spends money on the game, whether they may think they are, or not, is investing in the game in some form or another. One of the reasons why the game does so well, is do to it having the healthiest secondary market of ANY CCG in existance, heck, magic has an economy all its own, which is rather amazing to think about. Because people have confidence that the cards they purchase will relatively speaking retain value, and they can thusly get their money back out of it if they need to, then people are more willing to spend money on the cards (especially those with less money) because if something comes up, they can liquidate and get most of their money back out of it again.
This is a trend Ive seen very clearly time and time again with magic players. People always harp on the collectors as being the reason magic can be so expensive. In the early days of magic without those collectors, and the creation of the reserved list to calm collectors fears, magic would not be here today (given how huge a part of the buying that collectors made up back then, and wizards feeling they NEEDED to institute the reserved list, I dont see how this would be refutable). Wizards knows how important the secondary market is to the game, and thusly tend to be careful about mass reprintings that could harm the value of a great deal of cards all at once. A reprint here, and a reprint there are fine, as overall the affect on most people's entire collections would be minimal, and they would be fine seeing card X,card Y, or card Z decrease in value, because cards A-W are still fine. So long as people are confident, especially those with little money, than them spending out $10-$20+ on a card will be something they can be reasonable assured to get back at some point if needed, then people will be willing to spend such money more freely.
As for the specific topic of the thread, in most cases, reprinting will cause the price of the card to drop. More supply being added without a significant addition of demand often tends to send the pricing pressures downward. In cases where supply and demand both were relatively low to begin with (say on something old that was mostly just popular with the casual crowd), and the card gets reprinted in a standard-legal set, if the card does have the demand for standard/extended and the renewed exposure gets more people from casual/EDH interested in buying it, then the card could rise in value. It all just depends on the new demand for the card in the format its being reprinted in (typically standard).
What we observe in this relationship is not so much an increase in demand but an increase in quantity demanded. There is some crucial differences here. Changes in quantity demanded implies an endogenous change which is explained by the present demand function. When the price of a good declines to an acceptable price, it is the quantity demanded that changes (see attached chart). More specifically, at the present price P, there is an excess supply of a particular good (given reprints), hence resulting in the decline of prices until quantity demanded = the available quantity supplied.
There is no reason for the demand function itself to change in this case unless we are speaking of a case of general equilibrium (which does not apply here as supply considerations are generally fixed with mandated copies of each cards for each print runs are roughly proportionate to its rarity -- i.e. just because Primeval Titan is pricey, Wizards would not increase production of Primeval Titan and reduce the production of Frost Titan). As a net effect, the prices of reprints should invariably drop, ceteris paribus. Demand of a product are unlikely to change due to reprints (unless the reprints are differentiated from the original versions -- i.e. different art, misprints, etc.) -- though in my example of Primeval Titan, quantity demanded might actually fall further as rational actors foresee Valakut.dec phased out and indeed, banned from Valakut.dec.
That said, the effects of a new format may be harder to gauge -- indeed, any changes in prices are dubious. Prices of a particular card are unlikely to increase BECAUSE of reprints but it would increase if the demand for that card (i.e. based on "preference" -- or in Magic-verse, metagame preferences, deck viability, etc.) offsets the price decrease due to reprints.
1) Wizards will reprint (in promo version if necessary) every card with secondary market value they can. Their goal is profit, period, and this is profitable. They have devalued a huge portion of the secondary market going right back to Alpha and the trend shows that they're going to continue to do that.
2) Reprinting a card in a core set halves its value, approximately. BoP went from $16 before Ravnica to $8, then to $4, then $2, and now it barely fetches a dollar. Mileage may vary of course, but yes, reprinting a card almost always drops its value. I can think of 100s of cards reprinted in the last decade that went through an immediate and drastic price drop, and 0 that didn't. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, I'm just saying I don't think I've ever seen it.*
* If/when it does happen, it's a rare case and involves certain factors, such as the card goes through a massive popularity spike due to bannings, unbannings, metagame changes, etc.
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But how do you explain Solemn Simulacrum? It was a $5-7 card for the longest time and now it fetches $10+. This is despite not just one BUT TWO recent reprintings (Commander + M12).
Is this just be an anomalous bubble or can other cards duplicate this feat?
S
My Trade Binder...come take a look!
Solemn is one of those exceptions. It commanded a $7 or so price tag before the reprint due to casual/EDH demand alone, and upon getting reprinted (the commander decks really didnt affect the price much at all given the currently released print run of commander decks and there only being 1 of them in 1 of the decks compared to the previous supply from mirrodin and people not typically selling them when they openned them. The reprinting in m12 dropped the price initially down to $5 or so, only to see the card show up in tournament results in decent numbers and demand rocketed back up as now you have standard, EDH, casual, and possibly even extended demand to work with, standard of course causing the big jump we saw there as people werent initially giving it a ton of attention for standard until the results showed otherwise.
Im getting so sick of hearing this.
1. Its called a COLLECTABLE card game for a reason. Most things that are
true collectables have people investing in them.
2. What gives you the right to tell people what they should and should not do.
People "invest" into magic because of magic's strong secondary market. Because often magic cards can be perceived as a better bet than investing in many other more typical things, simply due to how strong of a market it is, how popular it is, and because its proven that no matter the economy, and often in spite of the economy, it continues to do better and better.
People are looking at anything to invest in that they may view as safe, and while magic cards may certainly seem like an odd choice in that regard, those little pieces of popular cardboard are investments to a lot of people. To some, its simply something to spend their money on for their entertainment, that unlike most forms of entertainment that people spend money on, is one that you can actually get most/all of your money back out of if you want to and nearly any time.
The secondary market of the game, that supply/demand equasion is a large part of how magic continues to be so popular even after 18 years of being on the market, the first CCG, and still the strongest.
Anyhow, sorry for the lengthy post, the point I was simply trying to get across was that investment in and of itself isnt a bad thing within the game, its simply a part of what the game has become.
It is now Standard Legal. It wasn't before. After it rotates, it will go back down, probably lower than it was before M12.
It also doesn't hurt that the new art is pretty good; some with playsets of the Sad Robot will still want the new, just for that; if the new art wasn't liked by many, demand would show more of a spread between old and new. I do agree that it'll drop significantly once it rotates out of standard though.
Collectible and Investment are not inherently mutually inclusive.
Yes it's a collectible trading card game. But collectible does not mean there's value* Value of course can be different. Some things have strictly personal, value, memorabilia/nostalgia. But monetary value can be subjective, to a degree, though in the end it's what the market will bear and what buyers are willing to pay.
Most of us might not think much of some crusty old stamp from 1927 for example, yeah it's old and neat but who would pay $700 for such a thing? I boggle at it when I see MtG collectors drooling over misprint or cut cards for example.
At the risk of this being too long, here's my problem. As both a collector and player of MtG - I both appreciate and despise the secondary market. Without it there are cards I would never have seen, except maybe outside of a tourney, when I first played in the mid 90s. It's directly tied to the fan and player base and without them the game is nothing.
But as a player I HATE HATE HATE the way the collectible aspects of the game *impede* the ability to play and compete. Despite the fact that I do own old cards of value I really don't care, and I'd be happy if, for the sake of playing and competition, they reprinted and diminished scarcity of high play value cards.
Besides - printing and selling cards is where WotC/Hasbro make their money.
Reprints here and there are fine of course, but its a process, and thats part of why they are creating modern, due to perceived demand, as well as due to being able to reprint stuff as needed and not have something like the reserved list for legacy/vintage hanging over their heads.
MTGO of course has none of these restrictions, and so they can do what they want there which I think will help online legacy a lot in the long-run as far as growth is concerned.