So I was thinking about this the other day, suppose you have iTrader = 100, at what iTrader level of your counter-party would you want them to send first? How about a purchase? And also...why would these two numbers ever differ? (You know what I'm talking about if you've ever received a pm that is something like "since my iTrader is really low, I would be 100% fine with sending first in a trade, but if it's a sale, I demand money first or no deal" you know what I mean...getting ripped in cards or money should be equivalent since cards cost $ in the first place, right? Or does everybody else value cards at 0 when ripped?)
I used to think the level is about 10 for both trades and sales, and most of you all I've traded with know I simul-send with just about everybody but recently I'm not so sure What do you guys think?
With paypal, it's pretty easy to open a dispute for buying cards. Trading them, not so much. Hence why I think people want money first, but cards they can wait on.
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Odds of pulling a JtMS from a WWK pack: 1:80
Odds of pulling any specific rare in 5th Edition: 1:133
So, on average, 1 JtMS every 2.222 boxes or 1 Bird of Paradise every 3.694 boxes. Yeah, I'll take my odds with Mythics, they are easier to get than old rares.
Want to support a LGS that finally branched into the selling online world? Send me a pm with your email for a $5 off coupon (usable on purchases of $10 or more) for a LGS that just recently got onto TCG player.
With paypal, it's pretty easy to open a dispute for buying cards. Trading them, not so much. Hence why I think people want money first, but cards they can wait on.
Yea but these days everybody utilizes the paypal option which won't let you open a dispute in the event something goes wrong
No matter how small the amount, I always use paypal (goods) so I get protection vs. paypal (gift). It's just not worth it. Also I don't mind paying just a little more to obtain peace of mind.
Even though it's not the topic up for discussion (I'll get to that...maybe), as far as gift vs. goods, I typically will only use the gift option if it is someone I have successfully dealt with 3+ times with absolutely no problems, and even then I'll take it on a case by case basis. That way, if things get messy, I can point to our excellent history and more easily work out any issues.
As far as sending first, etc., it's another case by case basis for me, although there are some general guidelines I follow for determining a simulsend (tradewise): 15+ iTrader, no negatives (obviously), and larger likelihood if they have completed successful trades with people I have as well. When it comes to selling, however, the money comes to me first, no exceptions; this has been my rule since I started selling/trading online in the Dark Ages (1996) and it has worked out well.
I don't buy from sellers on here with less than 50 refs, and if I use Paypal I usually use the goods option. It's just not worth the risk, I'd rather pay a little more in fees and get security. It's the equivalent of insuring the package, or requiring DC, etc. and just good business.
Also, if you DO buy from a seller with less than 50 refs, since you yourself have 150+ refs I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for the product first. Conversely I have sent first to moderators and users with over 200 iTrader and 100% positive with no issues.
For trading, I no longer send first EXCEPT to a moderator. Simulsend is fine for me on most trades, unless they have less than 25 positive refs. So far I have not had any problems. If the trade value is high enough (>100) then I will ask a user with less than 50 refs for scans AND to send first, and for deals over 300 so far I have only been trading with Josh or someone equally reputable. There is no need to take additionally risk, in my estimation. Yes my numbers are arbitrary but they work for me.
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My Trade Thread | Member of House Dimir, where hopes and dreams become death and corruption. Won't you join us?
Currently playing:
Vintage - Meandeck MUD
Legacy - Death and TaxesW, Team AmericaBUG, GSZ ZooGRW, TES, JunkBGW, Blue MUDU
Extended - BantUGW
Standard - Big RedR, UB ControlBU, Eldrazi GreenG
EDH/Commander - Thrun, the Last TrollG, Gwendolyn Di CorciBUR, Venser, Shaper SavantU
I simulsend with anyone who has 5 or more refs. At that point, I feel confident that I will receive my cards. And if not, that person is gonna be missing out, as they've already ruined all their future trades.
Now if the trades are worth a considerable amount (Let's say 25$+) I might be a little more tight about it. But I still usually don't have much of a problem simulsending.
As far as payment goes, there's a lot of gray area there from purchase to purchase. I don't mind paying first, as that's how most transactions work in the real world But, aside from that, I tend to use goods unless I'm paying less than 10$ for the item.
I guess it all changes once you get burned. I feel like the community itself has been very warming when it comes to allowing someone new like myself to start selling off my extra cards. I came on with 0 refs and people gave me a chance. I had to work a lot harder on my first few sales making people feel extra comfy but I've also had people want to buy from me again in such a little amount of time.
I still have not tried buying/trading with someone here so I guess I need to try out the other side of the equation.
IMO 5+ refs is a good start to get a feel for a person. If the deal is high $$$, then I would just pay 4% for the protection. Doesn't make sense not to.
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MTGO Look me up if you want to play (RichmondRhino)
Currently Playing (Standard - Legacy - Commander- Cube)
I won't use gift either. I always add 4%, because giving up your dispute rights to save 4% is just not worth it.
Anyways I have >150 feedback.
For purchases, I will pay first if the user is >130 references, other then that you are sending to me first.
For trades, I will offer a simulsend from 130-200, and if they have more then 200 I'll send first.
I have had people recently, with about 40 refs, get offended at me because I asked them to send first. Suck it up; I have earned four times the references as you and you think that doesn't mean something? I hardly ever have to send first and I've earned that right for trading here for so long.
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Quote from Matt McCullough »
I'm bad at magic, you're bad at magic, and Level 4 Pro Ari Lax is terrible at magic.
If you have within 10 refs I'll simulsend. If you have 10 more than me, I'll gladly send first. If you have 10 less than me, you send first - Moderator or not. I know that people with 120 references are probably good, but I see references as something you earn and I cash in on that capital. It's nothing personal, but I have been ripped off and I know that I will never rip anyone (if it looks like I did, then please contact admins because I am most likely dead).
When I first started out I used these rules, but found that I traded a lot with new people. But they sent first.
People who have earned many refs are entitled to do business how they want. Don't like it? Don't deal with them, or suck it up and play by their rules.
In my opinion, the problem with asking people to send first is that it just takes a really long time. I like to have trades completed pretty quickly and not worry about holding on to a bunch of cards and then sending them out a week later. Of course, if the value of the trade is high or the other guy does not have a lot of references this extra nuisance can be worth some peace of mind.
People who have earned many refs are entitled to do business how they want. Don't like it? Don't deal with them, or suck it up and play by their rules.
In my opinion, the problem with asking people to send first is that it just takes a really long time. I like to have trades completed pretty quickly and not worry about holding on to a bunch of cards and then sending them out a week later. Of course, if the value of the trade is high or the other guy does not have a lot of references this extra nuisance can be worth some peace of mind.
Agreed, I believe I have a respectable amount of refs for simulsending, but I will still accept it if someone with 100+ refs wants me to send first.
People who have earned many refs are entitled to do business how they want. Don't like it? Don't deal with them, or suck it up and play by their rules.
I definitely read people's trade thread rules and try to avoid people with overactive paranoia and a snobby attitude about people with fewer references (I'm not talking about 0-10 references here, I'm talking about 100+ vs several dozen and more). Everyone has to figure out their threshold for making someone send first, and that's totally their prerogative, but man, some people take it to an extreme.
I figure I'll probably get burned one day by actually being nice to people, but I don't have the cards for large, expensive trades so I'm content to simul-send as often as possible on the smaller trades I do. And I've had some outstanding trading partners.
The explosion that... destroyed our city, razed our home, and turned our fields into wasteland was nothing compared to what was now happening to those who survived.
I definitely read people's trade thread rules and try to avoid people with overactive paranoia and a snobby attitude about people with fewer references (I'm not talking about 0-10 references here, I'm talking about 100+ vs several dozen and more). Everyone has to figure out their threshold for making someone send first, and that's totally their prerogative, but man, some people take it to an extreme.
I figure I'll probably get burned one day by actually being nice to people, but I don't have the cards for large, expensive trades so I'm content to simul-send as often as possible on the smaller trades I do. And I've had some outstanding trading partners.
I am not snobby about it, but I have been doing this a while, have always hustled my trades out the door, and communicate with people. I've got the references and want to use them to keep me from getting ripped off as much as possible. Some have complained about it, but I always mail my end quickly and always "do it right."
I am not snobby about it, but I have been doing this a while, have always hustled my trades out the door, and communicate with people. I've got the references and want to use them to keep me from getting ripped off as much as possible. Some have complained about it, but I always mail my end quickly and always "do it right."
And that's totally your prerogative to do so! And I wouldn't say that everyone who does that is snobby about it either, but there are some who I sense are. It's the "I've earned the right to lord over you my superior reference list" attitude that bothers me. It sure doesn't feel like a welcoming place when you see stuff like that.
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The explosion that... destroyed our city, razed our home, and turned our fields into wasteland was nothing compared to what was now happening to those who survived.
And that's totally your prerogative to do so! And I wouldn't say that everyone who does that is snobby about it either, but there are some who I sense are. It's the "I've earned the right to lord over you my superior reference list" attitude that bothers me. It sure doesn't feel like a welcoming place when you see stuff like that.
That I agree with. When people take any of the protocol personally you run into trouble.
Sending first sucks, so I almost always simu send with anyone over 10 refs, unless it's a huge deal. Sort of like earning your keep around here to send first for first little while. It was worse for me being in Canada as deals would take 4-6 weeks to complete.
And that's totally your prerogative to do so! And I wouldn't say that everyone who does that is snobby about it either, but there are some who I sense are. It's the "I've earned the right to lord over you my superior reference list" attitude that bothers me. It sure doesn't feel like a welcoming place when you see stuff like that.
This was a turn off when I started here. And in some cases I lost out on sales because I didn't like the feel I got some some of people who wanted to buy.
And to think someone with 40 could be a ripper and not someone with 200 is silly. Anyone can be a ripper, whether it's 0, 5, 40, or 200 reps.
Someone with a clean record can still commit a crime.
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MTGO Look me up if you want to play (RichmondRhino)
Currently Playing (Standard - Legacy - Commander- Cube)
Buyers pay before shipment. Have a little trust in the seller. It just doesn't seem right to pay after receiving it, then you can dispute the price if it goes up/down, or have other issues like "lost in mail."
after 40-50 probably less than a percent are rippers but they are still out there.
I normally have anyone with less refs than me send first on large transactions no exceptions.
I normally simu send with anyone in the ballpark of 50+ or I've traded with before on everything else.
Refs do give you some privileges, I have 12 on motl league so I get to experience both sides of the coin.
Amount of time trading is also a huge factor. People who have been here 2 months with 50+ trades are usually more suspect. Rarely do you see big name long term traders go bad. In fact only a couple come to mind the worst of which was adridodr.
Buyers pay before shipment. Have a little trust in the seller. It just doesn't seem right to pay after receiving it, then you can dispute the price if it goes up/down, or have other issues like "lost in mail."
Fortunatly or not "lost in the mail" is your problem(seller) unless explicitly said otherwise.
I used to think the level is about 10 for both trades and sales, and most of you all I've traded with know I simul-send with just about everybody but recently I'm not so sure What do you guys think?
Odds of pulling any specific rare in 5th Edition: 1:133
So, on average, 1 JtMS every 2.222 boxes or 1 Bird of Paradise every 3.694 boxes. Yeah, I'll take my odds with Mythics, they are easier to get than old rares.
Want to support a LGS that finally branched into the selling online world? Send me a pm with your email for a $5 off coupon (usable on purchases of $10 or more) for a LGS that just recently got onto TCG player.
Suck it up and don't use the gift option and there isn't any issues.
Also, everyone around here likes to charge 4% extra, sometimes higher. The fees are actually 2.9% + $0.30
No matter how small the amount, I always use paypal (goods) so I get protection vs. paypal (gift). It's just not worth it. Also I don't mind paying just a little more to obtain peace of mind.
This awesome signature is by Bookworm10.
Goodbye Gutter!
As far as sending first, etc., it's another case by case basis for me, although there are some general guidelines I follow for determining a simulsend (tradewise): 15+ iTrader, no negatives (obviously), and larger likelihood if they have completed successful trades with people I have as well. When it comes to selling, however, the money comes to me first, no exceptions; this has been my rule since I started selling/trading online in the Dark Ages (1996) and it has worked out well.
Also, if you DO buy from a seller with less than 50 refs, since you yourself have 150+ refs I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for the product first. Conversely I have sent first to moderators and users with over 200 iTrader and 100% positive with no issues.
For trading, I no longer send first EXCEPT to a moderator. Simulsend is fine for me on most trades, unless they have less than 25 positive refs. So far I have not had any problems. If the trade value is high enough (>100) then I will ask a user with less than 50 refs for scans AND to send first, and for deals over 300 so far I have only been trading with Josh or someone equally reputable. There is no need to take additionally risk, in my estimation. Yes my numbers are arbitrary but they work for me.
Currently playing:
Vintage - Meandeck MUD
Legacy - Death and TaxesW, Team AmericaBUG, GSZ ZooGRW, TES, JunkBGW, Blue MUDU
Extended - BantUGW
Standard - Big RedR, UB ControlBU, Eldrazi GreenG
EDH/Commander - Thrun, the Last TrollG, Gwendolyn Di CorciBUR, Venser, Shaper SavantU
I would definitely NOT do payment as gift for any larger transactions, it's just safer that way.
One question: When you pay as goods, you can remove the message to avoid paypal fees (I believe). Does this also remove Paypal's coverage?
Commander/EDH:
WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator WU
GW Saffi Eriksdotter GW
BW Selenia, Dark Angel BW
W Heliod, God of Sun W
Retired:
Jenara, Asura of War Thada Adel, Acquisitor Jaya Ballard, Task Mage Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero Lyzolda, the Blood Witch Akroma, Angel of Wrath Nath of the Gilt-Leaf Tajic, Blade of the Legion Selvala, Explorer Returned Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Tiny Leaders:
W Mangara of Corondor W
Now if the trades are worth a considerable amount (Let's say 25$+) I might be a little more tight about it. But I still usually don't have much of a problem simulsending.
As far as payment goes, there's a lot of gray area there from purchase to purchase. I don't mind paying first, as that's how most transactions work in the real world But, aside from that, I tend to use goods unless I'm paying less than 10$ for the item.
I still have not tried buying/trading with someone here so I guess I need to try out the other side of the equation.
IMO 5+ refs is a good start to get a feel for a person. If the deal is high $$$, then I would just pay 4% for the protection. Doesn't make sense not to.
Currently Playing (Standard - Legacy - Commander- Cube)
My Cube - Updated 12/31/2013
Anyways I have >150 feedback.
For purchases, I will pay first if the user is >130 references, other then that you are sending to me first.
For trades, I will offer a simulsend from 130-200, and if they have more then 200 I'll send first.
I have had people recently, with about 40 refs, get offended at me because I asked them to send first. Suck it up; I have earned four times the references as you and you think that doesn't mean something? I hardly ever have to send first and I've earned that right for trading here for so long.
My Trade List (long dead)
My Sales List (long dead)
">Foil Japanese Death and Taxes! (In progress, needs <10 cards)
When I first started out I used these rules, but found that I traded a lot with new people. But they sent first.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
In my opinion, the problem with asking people to send first is that it just takes a really long time. I like to have trades completed pretty quickly and not worry about holding on to a bunch of cards and then sending them out a week later. Of course, if the value of the trade is high or the other guy does not have a lot of references this extra nuisance can be worth some peace of mind.
Commander/EDH:
WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator WU
GW Saffi Eriksdotter GW
BW Selenia, Dark Angel BW
W Heliod, God of Sun W
Retired:
Jenara, Asura of War Thada Adel, Acquisitor Jaya Ballard, Task Mage Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero Lyzolda, the Blood Witch Akroma, Angel of Wrath Nath of the Gilt-Leaf Tajic, Blade of the Legion Selvala, Explorer Returned Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Tiny Leaders:
W Mangara of Corondor W
I definitely read people's trade thread rules and try to avoid people with overactive paranoia and a snobby attitude about people with fewer references (I'm not talking about 0-10 references here, I'm talking about 100+ vs several dozen and more). Everyone has to figure out their threshold for making someone send first, and that's totally their prerogative, but man, some people take it to an extreme.
I figure I'll probably get burned one day by actually being nice to people, but I don't have the cards for large, expensive trades so I'm content to simul-send as often as possible on the smaller trades I do. And I've had some outstanding trading partners.
The explosion that... destroyed our city, razed our home, and turned our fields into wasteland was nothing compared to what was now happening to those who survived.
naw there are still rippers at 30+
after 40-50 probably less than a percent are rippers but they are still out there.
I normally have anyone with less refs than me send first on large transactions no exceptions.
I normally simu send with anyone in the ballpark of 50+ or I've traded with before on everything else.
Refs do give you some privileges, I have 12 on motl league so I get to experience both sides of the coin.
I am not snobby about it, but I have been doing this a while, have always hustled my trades out the door, and communicate with people. I've got the references and want to use them to keep me from getting ripped off as much as possible. Some have complained about it, but I always mail my end quickly and always "do it right."
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
And that's totally your prerogative to do so! And I wouldn't say that everyone who does that is snobby about it either, but there are some who I sense are. It's the "I've earned the right to lord over you my superior reference list" attitude that bothers me. It sure doesn't feel like a welcoming place when you see stuff like that.
The explosion that... destroyed our city, razed our home, and turned our fields into wasteland was nothing compared to what was now happening to those who survived.
That I agree with. When people take any of the protocol personally you run into trouble.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
This was a turn off when I started here. And in some cases I lost out on sales because I didn't like the feel I got some some of people who wanted to buy.
And to think someone with 40 could be a ripper and not someone with 200 is silly. Anyone can be a ripper, whether it's 0, 5, 40, or 200 reps.
Someone with a clean record can still commit a crime.
Currently Playing (Standard - Legacy - Commander- Cube)
My Cube - Updated 12/31/2013
Amount of time trading is also a huge factor. People who have been here 2 months with 50+ trades are usually more suspect. Rarely do you see big name long term traders go bad. In fact only a couple come to mind the worst of which was adridodr.
Fortunatly or not "lost in the mail" is your problem(seller) unless explicitly said otherwise.
Yes i am the same guy who trades/sells on MOTL AND Wizards of the Coast and i trade on POJO.