Somebody else brought this to light but apparently...
"From the ashes of defeat, Tezzeret rises again. Beaten to within an inch of his life and left for dead by the psychic sorcerer Jace Beleren, Tezzeret is revived by the ancient dragon Planeswalker, Nicol Bolas, who has plans for the embattled artificier: Find Crucius the Mad Sphinx, and with him the secret of etherium."
-from the preview of Test of Metal on the back of the smaller edition of The Purifying Fire
If taken in conjunction with with Scars of Mirrodin: The Quest for Karn novel that is also coming out, I don't thing it's that big of a leap to wonder of Crucius, the mysterious sphinx who brought etherium to esper to try and reunite alara was in fact Karn.
If this is true then I think that Elspeth suddenly has much more of a reason to be interested in Mirrodin; Karn may have been the catalyst of it's reunification, Bolas took advantage of the reunification causing even more chaos on Bant, and Tez is an Esperite which I bet is enough of a reason for Elspeth to hate him.
I'm gonna pop a vein if I see one more thread like this.
"Hey, Character X and Character Y have some superficially similar qualities. Maybe they're actually the same person????"
Presumably Tezzeret will locate Crucius in his novel. Test of Metal and The Quest for Karn will have separate stories, connected only by the characters involved, as The Purifying Fire was superficially connected to Zendikar by giving Chandra, and later Gideon, reason to appear on the plane and set the story into motion.
I don't thing it's that big of a leap to wonder of Crucius, the mysterious sphinx who brought etherium to esper to try and reunite alara was in fact Karn.
To wonder... no. To post it as a seperate thread... yes.
Karn isn't Crucius, Karn is Karn. Karn has never taken a form other than a golem, Karn has shown no ability to make eitherum (and Memnarch who took all of Karn's secrets showed no signs of knowing etherium as well).
Having books back to back doesn't qualify as a connection. There are many, many, many reasons why Tez would want to go to Mirrodin.
If this is true then I think that Elspeth suddenly has much more of a reason to be interested in Mirrodin; Karn may have been the catalyst of it's reunification, Bolas took advantage of the reunification causing even more chaos on Bant, and Tez is an Esperite which I bet is enough of a reason for Elspeth to hate him.
Crucius wasn't a catylst for the merger of the shards, they did that naturally. All Crucius did was have a mad plan to help the shard survive unification.
I doubt Elspeth knows enough of anything to understand what Bolas has done, let alone connected the fact that Tez is his minon.
I'm sure Elsepth will have a very lame reason for being in Mirrodin. But i doubt it will be revenge.
Ugin is Bolas, Marit Lage is an Eldrazi and Karn is actually also the lithomancer!
...Uh, yeah, no. There's no reason to assume that Karn is Crucius, for several reasons:
1. Karn is had the form of a golem from the last time we've seen him. Crucius is called the 'Mad Sphinx' so it could be assumed we're dealing with a sphinx, not a golem, and as Karn gave up his spark to the rift and with the new spark, you can't just change your form as you want, it'd be a large jump to say that he turned into a sphinx. For no reason at all.
2. Timeline wise, it may work, since we have very sketchy info regarding Crucius. What we do know, though, is that Bolas was hiding out on Alara after the Mending took place, and I'm pretty sure that he'd notice if another oldwalker was there as well.
3. Why would Karn introduce etherium, start several very large disagreements concerning the matter of etherium, have everyone make themselves filigree and then leave? It doesn't match with what we know about him.
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There are several similarities between characters, and there are a lot of theories that one character may be another one, giallarhorn gave several past examples of it aswell ;), but just because they are similar or there is a connection, doesn't mean they're the same person. It's like all of the Garruk is Venser nonsense that was happening a while back, just because they have the same helmet, but they explained where Garruk got it, and everyone was pretty much over that.
Crucius and Karn may not be the same person, but they may have met in the past, perhaps worked together or maybe Karn mentored the sphinx. One of the theories I have about all this Etherium stuff is that the material is based on Dark Steel, which is why Crucius went to Mirrodin to study it or retrieve the metal. But why Bolas would want Crucius is anyone's guess.
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I haven't changed by signature since Mirrodin Besieged spoilers started!
Crucius and Karn may not be the same person, but they may have met in the past, perhaps worked together or maybe Karn mentored the sphinx. One of the theories I have about all this Etherium stuff is that the material is based on Dark Steel, which is why Crucius went to Mirrodin to study it or retrieve the metal. But why Bolas would want Crucius is anyone's guess.
Karn didn't create Darksteel. Memnarch did. Memnarch was a brilliant artificer in his own right, and Karn wasn't around long enough to study anything that Memnarch had accomplished.
@everyone else: There are other problems with the assumption that Karn had ANYTHING to do with Crucius. After the Apocalypse, Karn fell into depression for one reason or another and stayed on Argentum for a century until Jeska showed up. While it's possible Crucius and Karn interacted in that period, we have no reason to assume Karn went anywhere after he made Argentum, that was the point of the Mirari and the other probes.
After Jeska ascended, Karn stayed with her until the events of Planar Chaos, making it kind of doubtful that Crucius suddenly joined with their happy little family.
There's also the character of a sphinx to take into consideration, they are more or less JUST like dragons except with a predilection for riddles and knowledge rather than gold and power, but it's something they wouldn't "apprentice" for as much as steal or kill for.
Then there is the nebulous time at which Crucius would have been on Esper. Alara had to have been broken pre-mending and for all the cultures to have developed as far as they had, it would have had to have taken even longer than that. Despite the sketchy timeline details we have about Crucius's actions, I'm still of the opinion that the Ethersworn had been in power for a LONG time. I'll try and double check every scrap we have about the various organizations and timeline regarding Esper, but it seems like something that started a long time ago.
Pure speculation on my part, but the enduring impression I've had of the Ethersworn is that they came into power as recently as less than a hundred years ago. If they had been in power longer, it would be odd for their agenda to be referenced as much as it has been, I think. Though with the thoroughness of the modifications to Esper's animal life, maybe it has been longer...
Doug says Decades, which would imply less than a hundred years. But the etherium is so ingrained in Esper... it just seems like it's impossible that they've been at it for less than a hundred years.
I have to go with Doug, it really doesn't take all that much time to convert a populace... so the spread of etherium in civilized Esper seems plausable. And we really don't know how widespread etherium is in the wildlife of Esper.
Well, Esper's society is extremely well-organized, so once the ruling body decided that everyone must have metallic bits in them it wouldn't take all that long to start modifying everybody. Less than a decade, that's for sure.
Okay, this is quite a "Ugin is Bolas 2: Electric Boogaloo".
Having two characters that have something distinct in common (in this case being artificers) does not mean they are the same. This does not deserve a thread, like the Valakut Eldrazi thing.
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"From the ashes of defeat, Tezzeret rises again. Beaten to within an inch of his life and left for dead by the psychic sorcerer Jace Beleren, Tezzeret is revived by the ancient dragon Planeswalker, Nicol Bolas, who has plans for the embattled artificier: Find Crucius the Mad Sphinx, and with him the secret of etherium."
-from the preview of Test of Metal on the back of the smaller edition of The Purifying Fire
If taken in conjunction with with Scars of Mirrodin: The Quest for Karn novel that is also coming out, I don't thing it's that big of a leap to wonder of Crucius, the mysterious sphinx who brought etherium to esper to try and reunite alara was in fact Karn.
If this is true then I think that Elspeth suddenly has much more of a reason to be interested in Mirrodin; Karn may have been the catalyst of it's reunification, Bolas took advantage of the reunification causing even more chaos on Bant, and Tez is an Esperite which I bet is enough of a reason for Elspeth to hate him.
"Hey, Character X and Character Y have some superficially similar qualities. Maybe they're actually the same person????"
Presumably Tezzeret will locate Crucius in his novel. Test of Metal and The Quest for Karn will have separate stories, connected only by the characters involved, as The Purifying Fire was superficially connected to Zendikar by giving Chandra, and later Gideon, reason to appear on the plane and set the story into motion.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
To wonder... no. To post it as a seperate thread... yes.
Karn isn't Crucius, Karn is Karn. Karn has never taken a form other than a golem, Karn has shown no ability to make eitherum (and Memnarch who took all of Karn's secrets showed no signs of knowing etherium as well).
Having books back to back doesn't qualify as a connection. There are many, many, many reasons why Tez would want to go to Mirrodin.
Crucius wasn't a catylst for the merger of the shards, they did that naturally. All Crucius did was have a mad plan to help the shard survive unification.
I doubt Elspeth knows enough of anything to understand what Bolas has done, let alone connected the fact that Tez is his minon.
I'm sure Elsepth will have a very lame reason for being in Mirrodin. But i doubt it will be revenge.
...Uh, yeah, no. There's no reason to assume that Karn is Crucius, for several reasons:
1. Karn is had the form of a golem from the last time we've seen him. Crucius is called the 'Mad Sphinx' so it could be assumed we're dealing with a sphinx, not a golem, and as Karn gave up his spark to the rift and with the new spark, you can't just change your form as you want, it'd be a large jump to say that he turned into a sphinx. For no reason at all.
2. Timeline wise, it may work, since we have very sketchy info regarding Crucius. What we do know, though, is that Bolas was hiding out on Alara after the Mending took place, and I'm pretty sure that he'd notice if another oldwalker was there as well.
3. Why would Karn introduce etherium, start several very large disagreements concerning the matter of etherium, have everyone make themselves filigree and then leave? It doesn't match with what we know about him.
EDH:
Zo-Zu the Punisher
Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
But that has no bearing on this discussion. But no, lol, that's not the case.
Crucius and Karn may not be the same person, but they may have met in the past, perhaps worked together or maybe Karn mentored the sphinx. One of the theories I have about all this Etherium stuff is that the material is based on Dark Steel, which is why Crucius went to Mirrodin to study it or retrieve the metal. But why Bolas would want Crucius is anyone's guess.
Karn didn't create Darksteel. Memnarch did. Memnarch was a brilliant artificer in his own right, and Karn wasn't around long enough to study anything that Memnarch had accomplished.
@everyone else: There are other problems with the assumption that Karn had ANYTHING to do with Crucius. After the Apocalypse, Karn fell into depression for one reason or another and stayed on Argentum for a century until Jeska showed up. While it's possible Crucius and Karn interacted in that period, we have no reason to assume Karn went anywhere after he made Argentum, that was the point of the Mirari and the other probes.
After Jeska ascended, Karn stayed with her until the events of Planar Chaos, making it kind of doubtful that Crucius suddenly joined with their happy little family.
There's also the character of a sphinx to take into consideration, they are more or less JUST like dragons except with a predilection for riddles and knowledge rather than gold and power, but it's something they wouldn't "apprentice" for as much as steal or kill for.
Then there is the nebulous time at which Crucius would have been on Esper. Alara had to have been broken pre-mending and for all the cultures to have developed as far as they had, it would have had to have taken even longer than that. Despite the sketchy timeline details we have about Crucius's actions, I'm still of the opinion that the Ethersworn had been in power for a LONG time. I'll try and double check every scrap we have about the various organizations and timeline regarding Esper, but it seems like something that started a long time ago.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
Doug says Decades, which would imply less than a hundred years. But the etherium is so ingrained in Esper... it just seems like it's impossible that they've been at it for less than a hundred years.
I have to go with Doug, it really doesn't take all that much time to convert a populace... so the spread of etherium in civilized Esper seems plausable. And we really don't know how widespread etherium is in the wildlife of Esper.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
Ops theory is a lot better put together then most others though.
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Having two characters that have something distinct in common (in this case being artificers) does not mean they are the same. This does not deserve a thread, like the Valakut Eldrazi thing.
Lock.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)