If I have an Opalescence, a Conspiracy (set to Goblin), and a Dralnu's Crusade on the battlefield (and nothing else). Dralnu's Crusade has the latest timestamp.
I am wondering in which order their effects are applied in Layer 4.
My understanding is:
Conspiracy depends on Opalescence (for obvious reasons)
Opalescence doesn't depend on anything (for obvious reasons as well)
Dralnu's Crusade doesn't depend on anything at this point (applying either Opalescence or Conspiracy won't change its text or modify its existence, neither what what it does, or what it applies to -Opalescence doesn't turn enchantments into Goblins, and Conspiracy doesn't turn anything into Goblin yet, since there is no creature on the board at this time-).
Therefore Conspiracy is applied last, and then timestamp order is used for Dralnu's Crusade & Opalescence. Since Dralnu's Crusade has the latest timestamp, the effects are applied in the following order:
Dralnu's Crusade, Opalescence, and then Conspiracy.
Which means that none of these enchantments is a Goblin or a Zombie, is this correct?
No; non-Aura enchantments other than Opalescence become Goblin Zombies and no other creature types.
Opalescence applies to "[e]ach other non-Aura enchantment". This includes Conspiracy and Dralnu's Crusade here, and Opalescence makes both permanents (and other non-Aura enchantments) into creatures (in addition to their other types).
Conspiracy applies to "[c]reatures you control", "creature spells you control[,] and creature cards you own that aren't on the battlefield". Conspiracy depends on Opalescence (since the latter changes the set of objects the former applies to, and both change types) (C.R. 613.7, 613.7a) so Conspiracy makes all "[c]reatures you control" (including Conspiracy, Dralnu's Crusade, and other permanents "you control" that were creatures due to Opalescence) have the type chosen for Conspiracy and no other creature types (C.R. 205.1a).
Dralnu's Crusade gives all "Goblin creatures" +1/+1 and changes the color and creature types of "[a]ll Goblins" (C.R. 108.1). Dralnu's Crusade depends on Conspiracy (since the latter changes the set of objects the former applies to, and both change creature types) (C.R. 613.7, 613.7a) so Dralnu's Crusade adds the Zombie creature type to "[a]ll Goblins", including permanents that became Goblins due to Conspiracy (C.R. 205.1b). (The color and creature types are handled by Dralnu's Crusade in later layers.) Dralnu's Crusade's effect "waits to apply until just after" the Conspiracy effect "ha(s) been applied" (C.R. 613.7b).
Since dependencies exist in these three permanents with respect to type changes, and there is no dependency loop here, timestamp order is not used (C.R. 613.7, 613.7b).
Well, your answer clearly gives a different outcome from the one I'm expecting.
Do you mind explaining me where I'm actually wrong?
My main point is that when you have to decide whether to apply Opalescence, Conspiracy or Dralnu's Crusade first, the game rules don't consider Dralnu's Crusade to be dependent on the other 2.
Here's the rule regarding dependency:
An effect is said to “depend on” another if (a) it’s applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect (see rules 613.1 and 613.3); (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to; and (c) neither effect is from a characteristic-defining ability or both effects are from characteristic-defining abilities. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of the other effect.
I think we all agree that Conspiracy don't change the text nor the existence of Dralnu's effect, and that it doesn't change what it does. What may apply here is the "what it applies to" part.
At this time, since Opalescence isn't applied yet, applying Conspiracy first won't change what Dralnu's Crusade applies to (since before Conspiracy, there was no Golbins on the battlefield, and after Conspiracy, there is still no Goblins in play - remember that Opalescence effect still hasn't applied, so there's no creatures to be turned into Goblin by Conspiracy yet).
Therefore, my conclusion is that Dralnu's Crusade, in that case, don't depend on Conspiracy. Therefore timestamp should be used to decide wether Opalescence or Dralnu's Crusade should apply first.
The part you are having trouble with is you are trying to say you check to see if conspiracy effects what the crusade effects and sinse it doesn't currently you can apply the crusade first. However, to attempt to check what conspiracy effects you have to already apply Opalescence because Conspiracy is dependent on Opalescence so you don't have this "well Opalescence hasn't had its effect so conspiracy doesn't make goblins for the crusade."
So you look at your three abilities and try to apply the crusade. It looks at the other abilities and asks are you guys going to making anything else goblins? Conspiracy chimes in with "I might let me check." But Opalescence buts with saying "First let me make things into creatures because you care about creatures." If you didn't choose goblin for Conspiracy it would do this check find that there are no nee goblins and let Crusafe go first but because the game finds that there are new goblins it makes it wait in line.
I do agree that your answer is what the logical outcome should be. However I can't find how rules are backing this up. More specifically, I can't find anything that backs up the "chains" of dependencies.
The relevant rules I found are:
613.7a An effect is said to “depend on” another if (a) it’s applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect (see rules 613.1 and 613.3); (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to; and (c) neither effect is from a characteristic-defining ability or both effects are from characteristic-defining abilities. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of the other effect.
613.7b An effect dependent on one or more other effects waits to apply until just after all of those effects have been applied. If multiple dependent effects would apply simultaneously in this way, they’re applied in timestamp order relative to each other. If several dependent effects form a dependency loop, then this rule is ignored and the effects in the dependency loop are applied in timestamp order.
613.7c After each effect is applied, the order of remaining effects is reevaluated and may change if an effect that has not yet been applied becomes dependent on or independent of one or more other effects that have not yet been applied.
The game only define what two different effects being in a "dependency relation" means, but never mentions that any other non-applied effect should be taken into account when doing so.
An effect is said to “depend on” another if (...) applying the other would change (...) what it applies to
.
So once again, my conclusion is, before applying any of these three effects:
Conspiracy depends on Opalescence
Opalescence is independent
Dralnu's Crusade is independent
Hence the conclusion in my previous post. I have the feeling that this doesn't make sense, but can't find any rule to prove it.
As stated, before applying any of the effects, only Conspiracy is dependent on another effect (Opalescence). This means, that as per 613.7b, Conspiracy has to wait until after Opalescence has been applied. The independent effects are still applied in time stamp order. So if Opalescence has an older time stamp than Dralnu's Crusade, it is applied first, which makes Dralnu's Crusade dependent on Conspiracy (if Goblin was chosen), making the Crusade wait until after Conspiracy has been applied (613.7c). If the Crusade has an older time stamp than Opalescence, it is applied first as usual within the time stamp system, because dependency does not yet cause changes in the order.
So you look at your three abilities and try to apply the crusade. It looks at the other abilities and asks are you guys going to making anything else goblins? Conspiracy chimes in with "I might let me check." [...]
And that check yields, that nope, nothing here that you'd care about.
That applying Opalescence will change that answer is handled by 613.7c, but only afterOpalescence has actually been applied. Until then, there's no dependency for Dralnu's Crusade.
As stated, before applying any of the effects, only Conspiracy is dependent on another effect (Opalescence). This means, that as per 613.7b, Conspiracy has to wait until after Opalescence has been applied. The independent effects are still applied in time stamp order. So if Opalescence has an older time stamp than Dralnu's Crusade, it is applied first, which makes Dralnu's Crusade dependent on Conspiracy (if Goblin was chosen), making the Crusade wait until after Conspiracy has been applied (613.7c). If the Crusade has an older time stamp than Opalescence, it is applied first as usual within the time stamp system, because dependency does not yet cause changes in the order.
That is my take on applying these rules.
I've actually realised that I made a mistake in my question. I indeed meant that Crusade has the oldest timestamp, not the latest one. My apologies for the confusion here.
So thanks Rezzahan for your answer, it confirms my understanding of the rules here.
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If I have an Opalescence, a Conspiracy (set to Goblin), and a Dralnu's Crusade on the battlefield (and nothing else). Dralnu's Crusade has the latest timestamp.
I am wondering in which order their effects are applied in Layer 4.
My understanding is:
Therefore Conspiracy is applied last, and then timestamp order is used for Dralnu's Crusade & Opalescence. Since Dralnu's Crusade has the latest timestamp, the effects are applied in the following order:
Dralnu's Crusade, Opalescence, and then Conspiracy.
Which means that none of these enchantments is a Goblin or a Zombie, is this correct?
(this example is inspired by the following article: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/layer-system-2009-11-05)
No; non-Aura enchantments other than Opalescence become Goblin Zombies and no other creature types.Opalescence applies to "[e]ach other non-Aura enchantment". This includes Conspiracy and Dralnu's Crusade here, and Opalescence makes both permanents (and other non-Aura enchantments) into creatures (in addition to their other types).
Conspiracy applies to "[c]reatures you control", "creature spells you control[,] and creature cards you own that aren't on the battlefield". Conspiracy depends on Opalescence (since the latter changes the set of objects the former applies to, and both change types) (C.R. 613.7, 613.7a) so Conspiracy makes all "[c]reatures you control" (including Conspiracy, Dralnu's Crusade, and other permanents "you control" that were creatures due to Opalescence) have the type chosen for Conspiracy and no other creature types (C.R. 205.1a).
Dralnu's Crusade gives all "Goblin creatures" +1/+1 and changes the color and creature types of "[a]ll Goblins" (C.R. 108.1).
Dralnu's Crusade depends on Conspiracy (since the latter changes the set of objects the former applies to, and both change creature types) (C.R. 613.7, 613.7a) so Dralnu's Crusade adds the Zombie creature type to "[a]ll Goblins", including permanents that became Goblins due to Conspiracy (C.R. 205.1b). (The color and creature types are handled by Dralnu's Crusade in later layers.) Dralnu's Crusade's effect "waits to apply until just after" the Conspiracy effect "ha(s) been applied" (C.R. 613.7b).
Since dependencies exist in these three permanents with respect to type changes, and there is no dependency loop here, timestamp order is not used (C.R. 613.7, 613.7b).
Do you mind explaining me where I'm actually wrong?
My main point is that when you have to decide whether to apply Opalescence, Conspiracy or Dralnu's Crusade first, the game rules don't consider Dralnu's Crusade to be dependent on the other 2.
Here's the rule regarding dependency:
I think we all agree that Conspiracy don't change the text nor the existence of Dralnu's effect, and that it doesn't change what it does. What may apply here is the "what it applies to" part.
At this time, since Opalescence isn't applied yet, applying Conspiracy first won't change what Dralnu's Crusade applies to (since before Conspiracy, there was no Golbins on the battlefield, and after Conspiracy, there is still no Goblins in play - remember that Opalescence effect still hasn't applied, so there's no creatures to be turned into Goblin by Conspiracy yet).
Therefore, my conclusion is that Dralnu's Crusade, in that case, don't depend on Conspiracy. Therefore timestamp should be used to decide wether Opalescence or Dralnu's Crusade should apply first.
So you look at your three abilities and try to apply the crusade. It looks at the other abilities and asks are you guys going to making anything else goblins? Conspiracy chimes in with "I might let me check." But Opalescence buts with saying "First let me make things into creatures because you care about creatures." If you didn't choose goblin for Conspiracy it would do this check find that there are no nee goblins and let Crusafe go first but because the game finds that there are new goblins it makes it wait in line.
The relevant rules I found are:
The game only define what two different effects being in a "dependency relation" means, but never mentions that any other non-applied effect should be taken into account when doing so. .
So once again, my conclusion is, before applying any of these three effects:
Hence the conclusion in my previous post. I have the feeling that this doesn't make sense, but can't find any rule to prove it.
That is my take on applying these rules.
edit:
And that check yields, that nope, nothing here that you'd care about.
That applying Opalescence will change that answer is handled by 613.7c, but only after Opalescence has actually been applied. Until then, there's no dependency for Dralnu's Crusade.
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I've actually realised that I made a mistake in my question. I indeed meant that Crusade has the oldest timestamp, not the latest one. My apologies for the confusion here.
So thanks Rezzahan for your answer, it confirms my understanding of the rules here.