Question: when sacrificing permanents to KCI, can you sacrifice two (or more) permanents at the same time?
My opponent has two Krark Clan Ironworks & a Scrap Trawler on his side of the field, with four tapped lands (they’re irrelevant), and an empty graveyard. I cast Karn Liberated, which it resolves. I then activate Karn’s -3 ability, targeting Scrap Trawler.
In response to Karn’s effect, he sacrifices a KCI & Trawler at the same time.
I know I can’t respond in any way to KCI because it’s a mana ability; but I would’ve thought you’d have to sacrifice permanents one at a time via KCI. Apparently, you can sacrifice multiple permanents to KCI at the same time if you have intent on casting a spell. And, because of this, the result was to return Trawler to his hand via it’s own effect.
The only card in hand was a Nature’s Claim, which was impossible for him to cast.
In this scenario, in between each activation of Krark-Clan Ironworks's ability, triggered abilities go on the stack (among other things) before that player gets priority again (C.R. 603.3d, 601.2i. 116.5). Also, in general, Krark-Clan Ironworks's ability's total cost doesn't include a mana payment, so there is no chance to activate mana abilities (including that ability itself [C.R. 605.1a]) while activating that ability (C.R. 601.2g). Even if the cost did include a mana payment, however, activating a mana ability while activating that same ability is not allowed (C.R. 605.3c).
Thus, if your opponent activates Krark-Clan Ironworks's ability:
and sacrifices Scrap Trawler to pay for it, its ability will trigger and go on the stack before that player gets priority again (C.R. 603.3d, 601.2i, 116.5, 603.3b, 603.10a, 603.10, 603.6c, 701.16a). And upon the Scrap Trawler ability going on the stack, your opponent must target, if possible, an "artifact card in [their] graveyard with lesser converted mana cost" than Scrap Trawler's right then and there (C.R. 603.3d, 601.2c; see also C.R. 112.7a), before your opponent will regain priority to activate abilities, including Krark-Clan Ironworks's ability again (C.R. 116.1b).
and sacrifices Krark-Clan Ironworks to pay for it, that permanent will go to the graveyard and Scrap Trawler's ability will trigger and go on the stack before that player gets priority again (C.R. 603.3d, 601.2i, 116.5, 603.3b, 701.16a). And upon the Scrap Trawler ability going on the stack, your opponent must target, if possible, an "artifact card in [their] graveyard with lesser converted mana cost" than that of Krark-Clan Ironworks right then and there (C.R. 603.3d, 601.2c), before your opponent will regain priority to activate abilities (C.R. 116.1b) (but note that the Krark-Clan Ironworks ability can't be activated again because Krark-Clan Ironworks has already left the battlefield).
All this differs from activating Krark-Clan Ironworks's ability while casting a spell (provided that spell's total cost includes a mana payment) (C.R. 601.2g) in that that ability can be activated multiple times this way without any player getting priority in between, which means that abilities that trigger as a result won't go on the stack until after the spell is finished being cast (C.R. 601.2g, 601.2i, 116.5).
All this differs from activating Krark-Clan Ironworks's ability while casting a spell (provided that spell's total cost includes a mana payment) (C.R. 601.2g) in that that ability can be activated multiple times this way without any player getting priority in between, which means that abilities that trigger as a result won't go on the stack until the spell is finished being cast (C.R. 601.2g, 601.2i, 116.5).
Assuming he could cast a spell (let’s say Titan’s Presence with the necessary targets & requirements), would he still need to sacrifice KCI & Trawler one at a time (with delayed triggers); or announce he’ll sacrifice both cards to cast Titan’s Presence; then having KCI’s Trawler trigger bring Trawler back?
I’m just trying to comprehend this, so I can have an answer if this arises again.
It only works if you have something to spend the mana on, like a spell you actually are going to cast and have to pay mana for, or an ability that has a manacost and you pay the manacost for.
If you are paying manacosts, you can activate mana abilities to pay for it, in which case you can sacrifice both of the artifacts.
But if neither is the case, you can only activate them after another to get the mana in your pool.
As I state in this thread, if a spell's "total cost includes a mana payment", the player casting that spell "can activate any number of mana abilities [while casting it], and as often as that player can pay their costs, even if the mana [added] this way exceeds the total cost of the spell" (review C.R. 601.2g). Note, however, that if a spell's total cost can't be paid (e.g., if enough mana can't be spent for Nature's Claim), the action of casting that spell is reversed upon the point of paying the spell's costs, as described further in C.R. 721.1 (C.R. 601.2, 601.2h). See also this thread.
So, is it against the rules to announce intent for casting a spell that you cannot cast?
Yes. If they try to cast Nature's Claim (assuming they can't possibly cast it, as you said), anything they do next will be canceled and the game is restored to its legal, pre-casting state.
Rule 601.2: (…) the game returns to the moment before the casting of that spell was proposed (…)
Assuming he could cast a spell (let’s say Titan’s Presence with the necessary targets & requirements), announce he’ll sacrifice both cards to cast Titan’s Presence; then having KCI’s Trawler trigger bring Trawler back?
Yes, this works.
If they can, and actually do cast Titan's Presence, then it is possible to sacrifice KCI and ST 'simultaneously' and have Scrap Trawler's ability bring Scrap Trawler back.
Strictly speaking, the sacrifices are not actually simultaneous, but the result is the same. The difference here is that the triggers will have to wait, as has been said earlier by Peteroupc. Mana abilities (thus the sacrifices) are activated during the step 601.2g, while triggers happen only in step 601.2i:
601.2g If the total cost includes a mana payment, the player then has a chance to activate mana abilities (…)
601.2i Once the steps described in 601.2a–h are completed (…) If the spell’s controller had priority before casting it, they get priority.
603.3. Once an ability has triggered, its controller puts it on the stack as an object that’s not a card the next time a player would receive priority. (…)
Strictly speaking, the ability triggers immediately when the cards sacrificed, but it actually reaches the stack only later.
Could the “simultaneous” sacrificing be done on a cheaper spell (say Warping Wail)?
Also, this’ll be off topic, but do you announce the intent of casting a spell, then activate mana abilities?
As long as a spell's total cost "includes a mana payment" (as is normally the case for Warping Wail), the player casting it can activate mana abilities (such as Krark-Clan Ironworks's ability [C.R. 605.1a]) while casting the spell, even if the mana produced this way is more than the spell's total cost (see my comment 5). (That player is not required to spend the mana produced this way while paying the spell's total cost [C.R. 601.2g-h].) And a player puts a spell on the stack as the first step of casting that spell (C.R. 601.2a, 601.2). However, in general, a player with priority can activate mana abilities before casting a spell (C.R. 114.1b), not just while casting that spell, but with the subtle difference I mentioned in comment 2.
My opponent has two Krark Clan Ironworks & a Scrap Trawler on his side of the field, with four tapped lands (they’re irrelevant), and an empty graveyard. I cast Karn Liberated, which it resolves. I then activate Karn’s -3 ability, targeting Scrap Trawler.
In response to Karn’s effect, he sacrifices a KCI & Trawler at the same time.
I know I can’t respond in any way to KCI because it’s a mana ability; but I would’ve thought you’d have to sacrifice permanents one at a time via KCI. Apparently, you can sacrifice multiple permanents to KCI at the same time if you have intent on casting a spell. And, because of this, the result was to return Trawler to his hand via it’s own effect.
The only card in hand was a Nature’s Claim, which was impossible for him to cast.
Could someone help clarify this for me please?
In this scenario, in between each activation of Krark-Clan Ironworks's ability, triggered abilities go on the stack (among other things) before that player gets priority again (C.R. 603.3d, 601.2i. 116.5). Also, in general, Krark-Clan Ironworks's ability's total cost doesn't include a mana payment, so there is no chance to activate mana abilities (including that ability itself [C.R. 605.1a]) while activating that ability (C.R. 601.2g). Even if the cost did include a mana payment, however, activating a mana ability while activating that same ability is not allowed (C.R. 605.3c).
Thus, if your opponent activates Krark-Clan Ironworks's ability:
All this differs from activating Krark-Clan Ironworks's ability while casting a spell (provided that spell's total cost includes a mana payment) (C.R. 601.2g) in that that ability can be activated multiple times this way without any player getting priority in between, which means that abilities that trigger as a result won't go on the stack until after the spell is finished being cast (C.R. 601.2g, 601.2i, 116.5).
EDIT (Feb. 21): Correctness edit.
Assuming he could cast a spell (let’s say Titan’s Presence with the necessary targets & requirements), would he still need to sacrifice KCI & Trawler one at a time (with delayed triggers); or announce he’ll sacrifice both cards to cast Titan’s Presence; then having KCI’s Trawler trigger bring Trawler back?
I’m just trying to comprehend this, so I can have an answer if this arises again.
If you are paying manacosts, you can activate mana abilities to pay for it, in which case you can sacrifice both of the artifacts.
But if neither is the case, you can only activate them after another to get the mana in your pool.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
Yes, this works.
If they can, and actually do cast Titan's Presence, then it is possible to sacrifice KCI and ST 'simultaneously' and have Scrap Trawler's ability bring Scrap Trawler back.
Strictly speaking, the sacrifices are not actually simultaneous, but the result is the same. The difference here is that the triggers will have to wait, as has been said earlier by Peteroupc. Mana abilities (thus the sacrifices) are activated during the step 601.2g, while triggers happen only in step 601.2i:
601.2i Once the steps described in 601.2a–h are completed (…) If the spell’s controller had priority before casting it, they get priority.
603.3. Once an ability has triggered, its controller puts it on the stack as an object that’s not a card the next time a player would receive priority. (…)
Strictly speaking, the ability triggers immediately when the cards sacrificed, but it actually reaches the stack only later.
RULES OF MAGIC :
http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/rules
He was right about the “simultaneous” sacrificing part; but couldn’t do it because he couldn’t produce green in any way.
Could the “simultaneous” sacrificing be done on a cheaper spell (say Warping Wail)?
Also, this’ll be off topic, but do you announce the intent of casting a spell, then activate mana abilities?
EDIT (Dec. 26): Correctness edit.
He was right about the “simultaneous” sacrificing part; but couldn’t do it because he couldn’t produce green in any way.
Could the “simultaneous” sacrificing be done on a cheaper spell (say Warping Wail)?