Hi,
My opponent has got Basandra, Battle Seraph on the battlefield. I have got an Battle-Mad Ronin an another creature in play, for example Grizzly Bears without any abilities. Furthermore there is an Silent Arbiter in play. No matter under which control.
When I turn to the combat-phase, my opponent activates Basandra's ability twice targeting my Grizzly Bears. When I declare attackers, do I have to attack with my Grizzly Bears or can I choose wheather to attack with the Bear or with the Battle-Mad Ronin? I think I have to attack with the Bear because that creature has two instances of "[...]attacks, if able[...]", but another player thinks that two or more instances of this effect are redundant.
Can someone maybe post the passage of the comprehensive rules that occurs here? Thank you!!
There is no real specific rule the covers what you want here only this one:
508.1d The active player checks each creature he or she controls to see whether it's affected by any requirements (effects that say a creature must attack, or that it must attack if some condition is met). If the number of requirements that are being obeyed is fewer than the maximum possible number of requirements that could be obeyed without disobeying any restrictions, the declaration of attackers is illegal. If a creature can't attack unless a player pays a cost, that player is not required to pay that cost, even if attacking with that creature would increase the number of requirements being obeyed.
However the creature with multiple instances of must attack will be required to attack as they are not redundant. Abilities that are redundant are specified as so in the comprehensive rules like flying for instance
702.9c Multiple instances of flying on the same creature are redundant.
You will have to attack with the Bear. There are two requirements that say the Bear must attack, and one saying the Ronin must attack. You have to fulfill the maximum number of requirements possible.
508. Declare Attackers Step
508.1. First, the active player declares attackers. This turn-based action doesn't use the stack. To declare attackers, the active player follows the steps below, in order. If at any point during the declaration of attackers, the active player is unable to comply with any of the steps listed below, the declaration is illegal; the game returns to the moment before the declaration (see rule 717, "Handling Illegal Actions").
508.1c. The active player checks each creature he or she controls to see whether it's affected by any restrictions (effects that say a creature can't attack, or that it can't attack unless some condition is met). If any restrictions are being disobeyed, the declaration of attackers is illegal.
This is the rule that says you can't attack with both creatures, because Silent Arbiter's ability is considered a restriction.
508.1d. The active player checks each creature he or she controls to see whether it's affected by any requirements (effects that say a creature must attack, or that it must attack if some condition is met). If the number of requirements that are being obeyed is fewer than the maximum possible number of requirements that could be obeyed without disobeying any restrictions, the declaration of attackers is illegal. If a creature can't attack unless a player pays a cost, that player is not required to pay that cost, even if attacking with that creature would increase the number of requirements being obeyed.
And this is the rule about requirements. Notice a requirement is defined as an "effect".
609.1. An effect is something that happens in the game as a result of a spell or ability. When a spell, activated ability, or triggered ability resolves, it may create one or more one-shot or continuous effects. Static abilities may create one or more continuous effects. Text itself is never an effect.
Battle-Mad Ronin has a static ability, so it creatures one continuous effect. But Basandra's activated ability itself is not an effect; it sets up an effect when it resolves. As it has been activated and resolved twice, we have two different effects even if they are basically "identical".
As Ronin has one requirement and the Bear has two (identical-looking or not), you must attack with the Bear.
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My opponent has got Basandra, Battle Seraph on the battlefield. I have got an Battle-Mad Ronin an another creature in play, for example Grizzly Bears without any abilities. Furthermore there is an Silent Arbiter in play. No matter under which control.
When I turn to the combat-phase, my opponent activates Basandra's ability twice targeting my Grizzly Bears. When I declare attackers, do I have to attack with my Grizzly Bears or can I choose wheather to attack with the Bear or with the Battle-Mad Ronin? I think I have to attack with the Bear because that creature has two instances of "[...]attacks, if able[...]", but another player thinks that two or more instances of this effect are redundant.
Can someone maybe post the passage of the comprehensive rules that occurs here? Thank you!!
Namse
508.1d The active player checks each creature he or she controls to see whether it's affected by any requirements (effects that say a creature must attack, or that it must attack if some condition is met). If the number of requirements that are being obeyed is fewer than the maximum possible number of requirements that could be obeyed without disobeying any restrictions, the declaration of attackers is illegal. If a creature can't attack unless a player pays a cost, that player is not required to pay that cost, even if attacking with that creature would increase the number of requirements being obeyed.
However the creature with multiple instances of must attack will be required to attack as they are not redundant. Abilities that are redundant are specified as so in the comprehensive rules like flying for instance
702.9c Multiple instances of flying on the same creature are redundant.
508.1. First, the active player declares attackers. This turn-based action doesn't use the stack. To declare attackers, the active player follows the steps below, in order. If at any point during the declaration of attackers, the active player is unable to comply with any of the steps listed below, the declaration is illegal; the game returns to the moment before the declaration (see rule 717, "Handling Illegal Actions").
508.1c. The active player checks each creature he or she controls to see whether it's affected by any restrictions (effects that say a creature can't attack, or that it can't attack unless some condition is met). If any restrictions are being disobeyed, the declaration of attackers is illegal.
This is the rule that says you can't attack with both creatures, because Silent Arbiter's ability is considered a restriction.
508.1d. The active player checks each creature he or she controls to see whether it's affected by any requirements (effects that say a creature must attack, or that it must attack if some condition is met). If the number of requirements that are being obeyed is fewer than the maximum possible number of requirements that could be obeyed without disobeying any restrictions, the declaration of attackers is illegal. If a creature can't attack unless a player pays a cost, that player is not required to pay that cost, even if attacking with that creature would increase the number of requirements being obeyed.
And this is the rule about requirements. Notice a requirement is defined as an "effect".
609.1. An effect is something that happens in the game as a result of a spell or ability. When a spell, activated ability, or triggered ability resolves, it may create one or more one-shot or continuous effects. Static abilities may create one or more continuous effects. Text itself is never an effect.
Battle-Mad Ronin has a static ability, so it creatures one continuous effect. But Basandra's activated ability itself is not an effect; it sets up an effect when it resolves. As it has been activated and resolved twice, we have two different effects even if they are basically "identical".
As Ronin has one requirement and the Bear has two (identical-looking or not), you must attack with the Bear.