Hey guys.
So were playing a game where my opponent uses on black sun's zenith all my creatures. I have dauntless dourbark and a bunch of treefolkand forest making him a 10/10. So he made all my creatures -7/-7. Does dauntless die?
I dont think so but my opponent says that simultaneously when thy die dauntless becomes a 3/3 because I have 3 forest and no more treefolk. I think that simutaneously he is still a 10/10th as he is hit with -7/-7 so he does not die because he drops from 10 to 3.
Your opponent is mostly right. Black Sun's Zenith doesn't make your creatures temporarily -x/-x, it puts x -1/-1 counters on all creatures. Dountless Dourbark has a Characteristic Defining Ability setting his power and toughness to the number of treefolk and forests you control at all times.
So, once the other treefolk are dead, your Dourbark is a 3/3 with 7 -1/-1 counters on it, and it will die.
It would be a 4/4 with 7 -1/-1 counters on it which makes it a -3/-3. So it would be put into the graveyard as a state based action, although it would be put into the graveyard after your other treefolks since it would survive the first state based action (though it still leaves immediatly after).
When the Zenith resolves, he will be a 3/3 as state based actions are checked. Immediately after your treefolk die state based actions will be checked again, at which point he will be a 4/4, since he counts himself, with 7 -1/-1 counters on him. Since you no longer control any other treefolk, if that would be enough to kill him, he immediately dies.
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DCI Level 2 Judge
If your question is "What would a judge do is this situation?", only one person's answer is relevant, and that is the Head Judge at your event. I can quote the rules, but I don't know your HJ.
The Zenith isn't getting checked again, State Based Actions are. The Zenith puts -1/-1 counters on every creature, and SBAs are checked whenever someone would receive priority. In this case, after BSZ resolves, SBAs are checked and puts everything except the Dourbark into the grave. Then SBAs are checked again, and puts the Dourbark in the grave. Then SBAs are checked again, nothing happens, any abilites that triggered from creatures dying are put on the stack, and the active player receives priority.
The way power and toughness modifiers work, they're always getting checked. So regardless of whether Dauntless Dourbark is getting -1/-1 counters placed on it, or receiving -7/-7 from some temporary effect, for the remainder of the turn, its power and toughness are each going to be equal to the number of forests and the number of treefolk you control, minus seven. If one of those treefolk dies, the Dourbark gets smaller. Likewise, if you had enough forests to keep it alive, and then played a new treefolk, the Dourbark would get bigger.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DCI Level 2 Judge
If your question is "What would a judge do is this situation?", only one person's answer is relevant, and that is the Head Judge at your event. I can quote the rules, but I don't know your HJ.
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So were playing a game where my opponent uses on black sun's zenith all my creatures. I have dauntless dourbark and a bunch of treefolkand forest making him a 10/10. So he made all my creatures -7/-7. Does dauntless die?
I dont think so but my opponent says that simultaneously when thy die dauntless becomes a 3/3 because I have 3 forest and no more treefolk. I think that simutaneously he is still a 10/10th as he is hit with -7/-7 so he does not die because he drops from 10 to 3.
Please let me know who is right. Thanks a lot
So, once the other treefolk are dead, your Dourbark is a 3/3 with 7 -1/-1 counters on it, and it will die.
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So long story short it does indeed die.
If your question is "What would a judge do is this situation?", only one person's answer is relevant, and that is the Head Judge at your event. I can quote the rules, but I don't know your HJ.
why does black sun zenith get checked again? i would think it gets played and gets graveyarded and done.
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If your question is "What would a judge do is this situation?", only one person's answer is relevant, and that is the Head Judge at your event. I can quote the rules, but I don't know your HJ.