Emphasis by me: 705.3. A coin used in a flip must be a two-sided object with easily distinguished sides and equal likelihood that either side lands face up. If the coin that's being flipped doesn't have an obvious "heads" or "tails," designate one side to be "heads," and the other side to be "tails." Other methods of randomization may be substituted for flipping a coin as long as there are two possible outcomes of equal likelihood and all players agree to the substitution. For example, the player may roll an even-sided die and call "odds" or "evens," or roll an even-sided die and designate that "odds" means "heads" and "evens" means "tails."
Does this mean that it is illegal to practice coinflipping to gain some sort of advantage? If I go into an M12 draft knowing that Goblin Bangchuckers goes late, and I practice coinflipping to where I feel I have a 60% proficiency at winning coinflips, is that illegal or is that good preparation?
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Quote from ClockworkSwordfish »
Had semenulative upkeep before it was fashionable. Look what you forced me to do, Wizards! IT DIDN'T HAVE TO GO DOWN LIKE THIS!
Quote from LandBoySteve »
Like I said, I can only go by my own experience, which is now 18 years. Kind of disheartening when you think you know something and you find out that you're a notch below a low grade moron.
Emphasis by me: 705.3. A coin used in a flip must be a two-sided object with easily distinguished sides and equal likelihood that either side lands face up. If the coin that's being flipped doesn't have an obvious "heads" or "tails," designate one side to be "heads," and the other side to be "tails." Other methods of randomization may be substituted for flipping a coin as long as there are two possible outcomes of equal likelihood and all players agree to the substitution. For example, the player may roll an even-sided die and call "odds" or "evens," or roll an even-sided die and designate that "odds" means "heads" and "evens" means "tails."
Does this mean that it is illegal to practice coinflipping to gain some sort of advantage? If I go into an M12 draft knowing that Goblin Bangchuckers goes late, and I practice coinflipping to where I feel I have a 60% proficiency at winning coinflips, is that illegal or is that good preparation?
That is an example of Cheating - Manipulation of Game Materials.
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That is an example of Cheating - Manipulation of Game Materials.
6.4. Cheating — Manipulation of Game Material
A player physically manipulates game materials (cards, dice, sleeves, etc.) illegally to try to gain an advantage.
Does that imply that there is a legal way to manipulate game materials? It just seems like good preparation if a player can do what a card instructs him/her to. In hockey, if you practiced for a shootout, and then you got fouled and you had to do a shootout, that wouldn't be illegal manipulation to gain an advantage, that'd be normal manipulation to gain an advantage.
Rule 705.3 says that the coin has to have an equal likelihood of landing on either side, not that the flip has to have equal likelihood of landing on either side.
Also, this rule seems hard to enforce. How would a judge go about enforcing this rule? What evidence would a judge need to rule that a coinflip had a greater chance of working out for the flipper?
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Quote from ClockworkSwordfish »
Had semenulative upkeep before it was fashionable. Look what you forced me to do, Wizards! IT DIDN'T HAVE TO GO DOWN LIKE THIS!
Quote from LandBoySteve »
Like I said, I can only go by my own experience, which is now 18 years. Kind of disheartening when you think you know something and you find out that you're a notch below a low grade moron.
A player physically manipulates game materials (cards, dice, sleeves, etc.) illegally to try to gain an advantage.
Does that imply that there is a legal way to manipulate game materials?
Yes, tapping my land for mana is a legal manipulation of game materials. Thoroughly shuffling my deck is a legal manipulation of game materials.
It just seems like good preparation if a player can do what a card instructs him/her to. In hockey, if you practiced for a shootout, and then you got fouled and you had to do a shootout, that wouldn't be illegal manipulation to gain an advantage, that'd be normal manipulation to gain an advantage.
Magic is not a game of dexterity. Coin flipping tricks are not a skill being tested in this game.
Rule 705.3 says that the coin has to have an equal likelihood of landing on either side, not that the flip has to have equal likelihood of landing on either side.
As I stated above, this game does not test dexterity.
Also, this rule seems hard to enforce. How would a judge go about enforcing this rule?
Observation and investigation.
What evidence would a judge need to rule that a coinflip had a greater chance of working out for the flipper?
None, a Magic tournament is not a court of law.
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You can also find the latest Comprehensive Rules here.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
As long as you aren't doing anything to the coin itself to get an advantage, you can't be called for Cheating - Manipulation of Game Materials.
That's what I thought. So if I pick up any coin and my thumb just happens to be so practiced that 60% of the time I flip what I call for, that isn't illegal manipulation? And as far as:
Quote from Exsam »
Magic is not a game of dexterity. Coin flipping tricks are not a skill being tested in this game.
the game should instruct me to do something less dexterous if it doesn't want me to test my skill at coinflipping, e.g., =randbetween(1,2). Saying it's not a skill being tested is like saying reading people is not a skill being tested, or like saying noticing the bottom of a player's library as they shuffle is not being tested. In a vacuum, sure, but in real life these things happen and teaching yourself to notice these things is just good preparation.
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Quote from ClockworkSwordfish »
Had semenulative upkeep before it was fashionable. Look what you forced me to do, Wizards! IT DIDN'T HAVE TO GO DOWN LIKE THIS!
Quote from LandBoySteve »
Like I said, I can only go by my own experience, which is now 18 years. Kind of disheartening when you think you know something and you find out that you're a notch below a low grade moron.
That's what I thought. So if I pick up any coin and my thumb just happens to be so practiced that 60% of the time I flip what I call for, that isn't illegal manipulation?
As I stated above, yes it is. The chance between the two outcomes is not equal due to the technique you are using. This is no different then using a 'trick shuffle' to stack your library.
the game should instruct me to do something less dexterous if it doesn't want me to test my skill at coinflipping, e.g., =randbetween(1,2)
The rule you quoted explains that. You could roll a die or use a random number generator as well. 'Flip a coin' means 'Determine randomly between two equally possible outcomes'.
I don't recommend trying to angle shoot this at any sanctioned tournament, it is very unlikely to end well for you.
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"To face death, that's nothing much. But to feel really stupid when you die, well, that would be insufferable." -Nafai, The Ships of Earth
Ever wanted to know what guidelines Judges use to make rulings? Find out at the DCI Document Center.
You can also find the latest Comprehensive Rules here.
While being "practiced" at coin-flipping MIGHT get you an advantage and be hard to enforce, in most cases it would matter people use dice to determine random outcomes (too much can go wrong with a coinflip), so you're really just wasting time trying to eke out that marginal advantage.
Besides, all that time you spend flipping coins could be spent playtesting, and you wouldn't have to rely on illegal gimmicks to win games. Just saying.
Saying it's not a skill being tested is like saying reading people is not a skill being tested, or like saying noticing the bottom of a player's library as they shuffle is not being tested. In a vacuum, sure, but in real life these things happen and teaching yourself to notice these things is just good preparation.
Note that this can earn you a DQ for Cheating - Hidden Information Violation. Practicing to notice the bottom card of your opponents library is not a "skill being tested", it is cheating. That's like saying fake shuffling is a skill being tested. Just because you might be good at it, doesn't mean you should be doing it.
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Level 2 Magic Judge
Cards do what they say they do. No more. No less.
Note that this can earn you a DQ for Cheating - Hidden Information Violation. Practicing to notice the bottom card of your opponents library is not a "skill being tested", it is cheating. That's like saying fake shuffling is a skill being tested. Just because you might be good at it, doesn't mean you should be doing it.
I don't understand how not randomizing your deck is in any way similar to keeping an eye out if your opponent chooses to reveal hidden information to you, i.e. shuffling so you can see their bottom card.
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Quote from ClockworkSwordfish »
Had semenulative upkeep before it was fashionable. Look what you forced me to do, Wizards! IT DIDN'T HAVE TO GO DOWN LIKE THIS!
Quote from LandBoySteve »
Like I said, I can only go by my own experience, which is now 18 years. Kind of disheartening when you think you know something and you find out that you're a notch below a low grade moron.
I don't understand how not randomizing your deck is in any way similar to keeping an eye out if your opponent chooses to reveal hidden information to you, i.e. shuffling so you can see their bottom card.
I think there might be a bit of a communication gap here.
If a player is doing something poorly and reveals hidden information as part of the process (i.e., shuffling with the faces of the cards in the library toward the opponent), that's not an infraction on the part of the opponent. Whether you're looking or not. The player is subject to some responsibility to keep hidden information hidden.
On the other hand, if the player is taking every reasonable step to ensure that hidden information stays hidden, then "practicing" techniques in order to get at that hidden information is still inappropriate. Going to any kind of excessive length (which falls to a judge's discretion) to get that information is still considered cheating.
Beyond that, getting into the details of what is/isn't allowed is probably beyond the scope of this forum because it will differ for individual judges in each specific circumstance.
I don't understand how not randomizing your deck is in any way similar to keeping an eye out if your opponent chooses to reveal hidden information to you, i.e. shuffling so you can see their bottom card.
You phrased it as being a "skill being tested" in Magic. As in, you have been practicing how to get a look at your opponents deck while they shuffle. If you are intentionally trying to get a look at hidden information, that is Cheating. That is no more a "skill being tested" than a fake shuffle is.
If he is a sloppy shuffler and you accidentally get a peek at his cards that different. But if you are intentionally trying to get a good look, that's not ok.
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Level 2 Magic Judge
Cards do what they say they do. No more. No less.
I don't understand how not randomizing your deck is in any way similar to keeping an eye out if your opponent chooses to reveal hidden information to you, i.e. shuffling so you can see their bottom card.
Its not but going to excessive lengths to notice it, is.
Be aware that if you see the bottom card of your opponent's library during the shuffling process the deck is no longer considered randomized and you will need to inform your opponent/judge that more shuffling is needed. Failing to do so would be considered Cheating - Fraud.
Quote from MTR »
3.9 Card Shuffling
Decks must be randomized at the start of every game and whenever an instruction requires it. Randomization is defined as bringing the deck to a state where no player can have any information regarding the order or position of cards in any portion of the deck. Pile shuffling alone is not sufficiently random.
Once the deck is randomized, it must be presented to an opponent. By this action, players state that their decks are legal and randomized. The opponent may then shuffle it additionally. Cards and sleeves must not be in danger of being damaged during this process. If the opponent does not believe the player made a reasonable effort to randomize his or her deck, the opponent must notify a judge. Players may request to have a judge shuffle their cards rather than the opponent; this request will be honored only at a judge’s discretion.
If a player has had the opportunity to see any of the card faces of the deck being shuffled, the deck is no longer considered randomized and must be randomized again.
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"To face death, that's nothing much. But to feel really stupid when you die, well, that would be insufferable." -Nafai, The Ships of Earth
Ever wanted to know what guidelines Judges use to make rulings? Find out at the DCI Document Center.
You can also find the latest Comprehensive Rules here.
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Does this mean that it is illegal to practice coinflipping to gain some sort of advantage? If I go into an M12 draft knowing that Goblin Bangchuckers goes late, and I practice coinflipping to where I feel I have a 60% proficiency at winning coinflips, is that illegal or is that good preparation?
That is an example of Cheating - Manipulation of Game Materials.
Ever wanted to know what guidelines Judges use to make rulings? Find out at the DCI Document Center.
You can also find the latest Comprehensive Rules here.
6.4. Cheating — Manipulation of Game Material
A player physically manipulates game materials (cards, dice, sleeves, etc.) illegally to try to gain an advantage.
Does that imply that there is a legal way to manipulate game materials? It just seems like good preparation if a player can do what a card instructs him/her to. In hockey, if you practiced for a shootout, and then you got fouled and you had to do a shootout, that wouldn't be illegal manipulation to gain an advantage, that'd be normal manipulation to gain an advantage.
Rule 705.3 says that the coin has to have an equal likelihood of landing on either side, not that the flip has to have equal likelihood of landing on either side.
Also, this rule seems hard to enforce. How would a judge go about enforcing this rule? What evidence would a judge need to rule that a coinflip had a greater chance of working out for the flipper?
Yes, tapping my land for mana is a legal manipulation of game materials. Thoroughly shuffling my deck is a legal manipulation of game materials.
Magic is not a game of dexterity. Coin flipping tricks are not a skill being tested in this game.
As I stated above, this game does not test dexterity.
Observation and investigation.
None, a Magic tournament is not a court of law.
Ever wanted to know what guidelines Judges use to make rulings? Find out at the DCI Document Center.
You can also find the latest Comprehensive Rules here.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
That's what I thought. So if I pick up any coin and my thumb just happens to be so practiced that 60% of the time I flip what I call for, that isn't illegal manipulation? And as far as:
the game should instruct me to do something less dexterous if it doesn't want me to test my skill at coinflipping, e.g., =randbetween(1,2). Saying it's not a skill being tested is like saying reading people is not a skill being tested, or like saying noticing the bottom of a player's library as they shuffle is not being tested. In a vacuum, sure, but in real life these things happen and teaching yourself to notice these things is just good preparation.
As I stated above, yes it is. The chance between the two outcomes is not equal due to the technique you are using. This is no different then using a 'trick shuffle' to stack your library.
The rule you quoted explains that. You could roll a die or use a random number generator as well. 'Flip a coin' means 'Determine randomly between two equally possible outcomes'.
I don't recommend trying to angle shoot this at any sanctioned tournament, it is very unlikely to end well for you.
Ever wanted to know what guidelines Judges use to make rulings? Find out at the DCI Document Center.
You can also find the latest Comprehensive Rules here.
Besides, all that time you spend flipping coins could be spent playtesting, and you wouldn't have to rely on illegal gimmicks to win games. Just saying.
Note that this can earn you a DQ for Cheating - Hidden Information Violation. Practicing to notice the bottom card of your opponents library is not a "skill being tested", it is cheating. That's like saying fake shuffling is a skill being tested. Just because you might be good at it, doesn't mean you should be doing it.
Cards do what they say they do. No more. No less.
I don't understand how not randomizing your deck is in any way similar to keeping an eye out if your opponent chooses to reveal hidden information to you, i.e. shuffling so you can see their bottom card.
I think there might be a bit of a communication gap here.
If a player is doing something poorly and reveals hidden information as part of the process (i.e., shuffling with the faces of the cards in the library toward the opponent), that's not an infraction on the part of the opponent. Whether you're looking or not. The player is subject to some responsibility to keep hidden information hidden.
On the other hand, if the player is taking every reasonable step to ensure that hidden information stays hidden, then "practicing" techniques in order to get at that hidden information is still inappropriate. Going to any kind of excessive length (which falls to a judge's discretion) to get that information is still considered cheating.
Beyond that, getting into the details of what is/isn't allowed is probably beyond the scope of this forum because it will differ for individual judges in each specific circumstance.
You phrased it as being a "skill being tested" in Magic. As in, you have been practicing how to get a look at your opponents deck while they shuffle. If you are intentionally trying to get a look at hidden information, that is Cheating. That is no more a "skill being tested" than a fake shuffle is.
If he is a sloppy shuffler and you accidentally get a peek at his cards that different. But if you are intentionally trying to get a good look, that's not ok.
Cards do what they say they do. No more. No less.
Its not but going to excessive lengths to notice it, is.
Be aware that if you see the bottom card of your opponent's library during the shuffling process the deck is no longer considered randomized and you will need to inform your opponent/judge that more shuffling is needed. Failing to do so would be considered Cheating - Fraud.
Ever wanted to know what guidelines Judges use to make rulings? Find out at the DCI Document Center.
You can also find the latest Comprehensive Rules here.