Hello everyone. I'm here to ask a legitimate question. I've been playing since Shadowmoor, and it seems to me that after Return to Ravnica, the majority of sets have been weak or low-powered. I've gone from wanting multiple cards in a set, to not having bought a single Standard card since Narset Transcendent. I played through Theros, and the entire block was just plain horrible, especially BotG.. Khans was okay, but 95% of the block was either busted (Dig, Cruise, Siege Rhino), or virtually unplayable in Constructed. BFZ was just plain weak, Oath, (despite breaking Modern) was riddled with lazy, forgettable designs and cards for the Eldrazi. As for Shadows, the vote's still out, but it appears to follow the same principle. Why is this?
As far as I've heard, the Scars of Mirrodin, Innistrad, and RtR blocks were the height of power levels in years, and Wizards wanted to tone things down so Standard wasn't too crazy (I'm really generalizing here, but it's something). It also seems that your personal preferences are at play here; I, and many others, loved the Khans block for flavor and power, and Shadows over Innistrad has been a big hit so far. Besides, Theros also gave us Eidolon of the Great Revel, Keranos, God of Storms, Stormbreath Dragon, Elspeth, Sun's Champion and Courser of Kruphix, and none of those are reprints. And I wouldn't call the Eldrazi in BFZ and OGW lazy or forgettable, because colorless mana costs was a major step forward in game design and Eldrazi decks of various iterations have made an impact in Modern.
I think the recent sets are just fine. It seems you're simply nostalgic for the 2008-2012 time frame. Not a bad thing, but it'll affect your view, I suppose.
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KTK: Pretty good. (Almost) everybody loved the clans, people wanted wedges, and getting the fetches for modern was good. Prowess was so well-received that it became evergreen, Raid was reasonably well-liked (just above average popularity for mechanics all-time), Delve was well-received, and Seige Rhino was... Siege Rhino.
FRF: Well... Monastery Mentor happened, as did interesting wedge commanders and the last Tiny Leaders color combinations were filled.
DTK: This was also reasonably well-liked, although people missed the clans. We got some nice designs that made standard much more interesting and help boost the two-set model's beginning by leaving things like Atarka and CoCo in standard.
ORI: People loved Origins... except for the polarizing poster boy's newest expensive appearance. Still, it's a nice card for standard now that fetches are gone, it's shown up in modern, and it was well-designed. Hangarback Walker is fun, the other flipwalkers are nice, and the storyline contributions were long due. Core sets went out with a bang.
BFZ: ...Let's not.
OGW: Well, on average, BFZ and OGW had a well-balanced power level, but that's like saying that someone with their feet in an oven and head in a freezer is comfortable. Modern died.
SOI: I disagree on this one. I think that it was well-received and very well-designed. Raw power (Nahiri) is balanced with the most Johnny/Vorthos/Melvin-y cards possible (Triskaidekaphobia is fun for all of these player types) and with cards that are both flavorful and powerful (but not overwhelmingly so, like Sorin and Avacyn). The storyline has been told very well through the cards too.
Overall, this remains to be seen. If EMN is a flop, I agree, we're going downhill and SOI was simply an outlier. But if EMN is good, then we fell for a bit with BFZ block and we're back to high standards now.
Most magic sets are filled with purposefully bad cards, which has been the case since Masques (and most of the sets before that were filled with accidentally bad cards). So the Big Exciting Things each set are the handful of eternal playables that may or may not come out and the mediocre cards that are only relatively good because they fill a role in their standard environments.
SoI block hasn't really done anything in eternal formats (except the occasional attempt to make Thing in the Ice or Nahiri, the Harbinger into things), but I think it's a reach to try to stretch that into a trend.
I agree with the OP. I thought Theros was fine, BoTg and JtN were ok a little underwhelming but good. Khans of Tarkir was a very good set imo but Fate reforged and Dragons of Tarkir were pretty meh. I wasn't into the cards or the mechanics. Then they followed up 2 meh sets with the huge turd that was BFZ. I did not like this set at all. It feels like they knew they had a lackluster set and thats why expeditions became a thing. Oath was a lot better than BFZ but still couldnt quite wash the stink of BFZ off, and couple that with the Eldrazi Winter/Spring (which rocked my favorite format and I wasnt happy about that at the time)Fortunately SOI was very good, flavorwise and gameplay wise. But I can say for myself (and probably others) that 3 meh sets in a row can give the feel of a powered and watered down standard.
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Entire history of magic has been high and low points in set design/power. Anyone remember The Dark, Fallen Empires, Homelands, Ice Age? All seriously underpowered sets with a few standout cards. Kamigawa anyone? Right now we're near a high point in flavor I'd say, and beginning to come back to in power from a period of reduced power in response to ZEN/SOM standard, they pretty much spent the 4 years from Innistrad through Journey into Nyx reacting to CawBlade and then Snapcaster Mage, and the the messes they caused, stepping down each set in power trying to get to a more balanced standard environment. Innistrad had Stony Silence to hate Swords/Batterskull, RTR had Rest in Peace to hate Snapcaster/Flashback, Theros hated RTR by pushing mono colored decks over Guild pairs through Devotion. Khans was the first non-core set since New Phyrexia not designed with a plan for nullifying the strongest aspects of a previous set/block. So really Ktk-SoI has been a rebuilding period where WoTC has been working to not create another warped standard.
As far as I've heard, the Scars of Mirrodin, Innistrad, and RtR blocks were the height of power levels in years
Yet at the time people said the same things the op is talking about here. These lines come up with every new set no matter what the quality is yet we have had record sales numbers each year for years now. Personally I think every set I have been around for (since mirrodin besieged) has been pretty good, with some sets standing above others in terms of fun but nothing so bad that I didn't feel the need to play magic.
KtK was fine, but I started around m12, with the Titans. it was considered just a generic, weaker end core set back then, but the idea of Quicksilver Amulet, the Titans, BoP, DoJ, Doom Blade, PONDER, Spirit Mantle...forgive me if i am wrong, and current Standard players feel free to correct me, but several of those cards are things Wizards doesn't do anymore (4cmc wrath, 1cmc dorks, several) and it sure seems to me like that single set would beat the entire current Standard down and take your lunch money? and the set wasn't considered great, I DID play Standard then, mono-black, loved me some Sorin Markov following Grave Titan, back by 1cmc discard
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Power levels are cyclical in Magic. If Wizards had their way, power levels would err to the low end of the scale, which gets pit against power creep and the need to print cards that people want to buy. Typically, Wizards aims low because, as unpopular weak sets are, broken sets can be disastrous, as evidenced by the combo-saturated environment brought by Urza block and the Affinity-dominated standard of Mirrodin. Naturally, they correct with weaker sets such as Mercadian Masques and Kamigawa, and the need to draw players in brings the power level back up again. Currently, we're in a bit of a downswing, but SOI might bring it back up again.
Didn't BFZ block nearly annihilate Modern? And KTK block forced multiple bans. Like yeah standard is weaker but the relative card strength has not diminished. I mean look how many BFZ block cards are played in legacy now it's crazy.
for me the RTR Block was good besides Dragonsmaze. then Theros was fine flavourwise (even if devotion was annoying in standard), but not that great from powerlevel perspective. But at least they reprinted theros. OVerall i did not like the Theros block that much, but it was definitly not as bad as kamigawa for example.
After Theros we got Khans. The whole block was pretty awesome. All 3 Sets had reasonable good cards. And Dig/Treasure Cruise were great for standard. I guess Wotc underestimated them in eternal formats but they reacted pretty fast, so i think it was fine. Overall a really good block.
Then we got BFZ.. i agree that the Set was pretty bad, and i hated it that they went on from rise of the eldrazi instead of zendikar. I guess BFZ would have been much better if they would have taken zendikar as their example instead of rise of the eldrazi.
Oath of the Gatewatch was much better in my oppinion, but still BFZ was bad so i call the whole block a fail.
Now we got Shadows over Innistrat and i think it is a great set. Extremly good flavour and good powerlevel.
So no: There always were better and worse sets and that didnt change at all.
We've been on a pretty steady downhill since Alliances.
Seriously, though, people ebb and flow with the hobby. Some sets hit right, some miss. I loved theros' flavor, but wasn't a fan of the mechanics in the set. I had a lot of fun with the RTR block despite it not having tons of value beyond the shocklands. BFZ/OGW didn't interest me in the slightest, and SoI is pretty fun.
As far as I've heard, the Scars of Mirrodin, Innistrad, and RtR blocks were the height of power levels in years
Yet at the time people said the same things the op is talking about here. These lines come up with every new set no matter what the quality is yet we have had record sales numbers each year for years now. Personally I think every set I have been around for (since mirrodin besieged) has been pretty good, with some sets standing above others in terms of fun but nothing so bad that I didn't feel the need to play magic.
There is a huge difference in power level between zendikar/scars, and innistrad onwards. Keep in mind that zendikar/scars was a standard format where a deck capable of turn 3 kills was considered nearly unplayable because of the dominance of squadron hawk + jace engines. Innistrad was an amazing block, but it wasn't high powered, with the exception of liliana and snapcaster. RTR/innistrad was even slower, with sphinx's revalation dominating, an theros was utter crap. Honestly khans block + origins has been one of the coolest standard formats in years. Yeah, seige rhino was stupid, but there is at least options for fast fun decks.
It's a mixture of both underpowered cards and boring design. I'm a Johnny/Timmy-type player. I like cards like Possibility Storm, Warp World and Eye of the Storm. Functionally 'unplayable' cards in tournaments, but which have interesting mechanics. In the last few sets though, we've had very few, if any, of these types of cards. Then you get scenarios like Siege Rhino, where the surrounding cards are so weak that one 'design mistake' of a rare warps Standard. I've noticed on many cards as well that they seem to have been nerfed or rendered vastly less playable, often for no good reason. Cards like Always Watching, which really didn't need a non-token clause.
Tarkir block was pretty damn good if you ask me. It had fetchlands, cool dragons in allied colours, cool Khans, sweet commands and great flavor overall. It lead to sweet 3 colour decks with Theros block and 4 colour decks with BFZ block
I feel Origins had cool flavor behind the walker origins and cool cards
I didn't overly enjoy BFZ block but it was still okay
SOI is cool because of the flavor and has some sweet cards. I have a lot of nostalgia for the original Innistrad though
Multi-Color sets tend to be stronger as they can push cards harder with heavy multicolor costs and cards with <= 3 mana cost tend to be more impactful in older formats aswell.
Eldrazi are strong, but not expensive cards. Its a parasitic theme, but they pushed the cards enough to make a deck (the discard effect is critical to the deck, as that makes it constructed viable, especially with the lands that tap for 2).
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Powerlevel you can expect a pretty linear level. WotC doesnt want to put too much in a set.
Guys, the power level is actually lowering with every single set. I say that because they need to make value out of the old cards. So more power in old, less in new.
If you buy a box right now and battle with a deck you could build from it, it has about 50% the power of a set 10 years ago. Common and uncommon new cards are not broken anymore.
But as long as you play standard and will rotate as always this will not influence the game. And if you play casual with two lower power decks then it is ok.
I actually bet current standard decks would do well against most older standard decks with the exception of particularly broken times in magic history.
INN-RTR was awesome, very fun, and despite being a bit overrun by Revelation and Thragy, fast aggro was still possible.
RTR-Theros was awesome. I for one REALLY enjoyed Theros and the cards it brought. I had a ton of fun brewing in this format.
THS-KTK was decent I still enjoyed THS, and really really liked Origins, however KTK I felt like was meh at best, though definitely had room to brew which kept me in.
KTK-BFZ was dumb imo. Basically once THS rotated out I lost interest, KTK-DTK was neat and had some brew room, but without THS it just went down hill, 1 deck dominated and the rest sucked.
BFZ- I looked at the spoilers, brewed a few decks on my phone, didnt play a single match.
SOI- Started playng again, flavor is amazing, cards are pretty cool, but not OP. Definitely tons of room to brew and have fun.
Guys, the power level is actually lowering with every single set. I say that because they need to make value out of the old cards. So more power in old, less in new.
If you buy a box right now and battle with a deck you could build from it, it has about 50% the power of a set 10 years ago. Common and uncommon new cards are not broken anymore.
But as long as you play standard and will rotate as always this will not influence the game. And if you play casual with two lower power decks then it is ok.
there's been some broken common and uncommons lately. Treacure cruise was good enough to be banned/ restricted in every format Khans is legal in now.
delver of secrets was powerful enough to have several legacy and modern decks built around it. Gurmag angler is played a lot of delver and GY based decks
mental misstep is banned/ restricted in every format NPH is legal in.
There's probabl a lot more powerful commons and uncommons I'm missing but I'm at work and don't wanna spend too much more time listing "broken" or powerful commons and uncommon cards
I think saying that standard decks won't compete against old standard decks is a broad statement that probably isn't true
I tried playing in a Mirrodin flashback draft a few months ago and hated it. Too many broken combos and luck involved.
I only play limited and I have enjoyed each of the last several sets (not including alternate releases such as Tempest Remastered). Theros was not good in my view for limited but I enjoyed the full Theros block and all of the sets after that.
It's a mixture of both underpowered cards and boring design. I'm a Johnny/Timmy-type player. I like cards like Possibility Storm, Warp World and Eye of the Storm. Functionally 'unplayable' cards in tournaments, but which have interesting mechanics. In the last few sets though, we've had very few, if any, of these types of cards. Then you get scenarios like Siege Rhino, where the surrounding cards are so weak that one 'design mistake' of a rare warps Standard. I've noticed on many cards as well that they seem to have been nerfed or rendered vastly less playable, often for no good reason. Cards like Always Watching, which really didn't need a non-token clause.
Given the dominance of G/W tokens without the ability to pump them all up with always watching I think they knew what they were doing when they added that clause. Now imagine if they reprinted intangible virtue instead.
Part of it is that we all remember the good parts. Innistrad was the best set, ever, Return to Ravnica had all the sweet nostalgia, Theros had such neat mechanics and great flavor; we tend to forget (or not bring up in threads like these) the Pack Rat/Sphinx's Revelelation/Mono-U Devotion Standards, the awful speed of Limited in RTR Block, or (heavenNyx forbid) the sets like Born of the Gods.
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I think the recent sets are just fine. It seems you're simply nostalgic for the 2008-2012 time frame. Not a bad thing, but it'll affect your view, I suppose.
UBR Sedris
RG Omnath, Locus of Rage
UB The Scarab God
RUG Maelstrom Wanderer
WU Dragonlord Ojutai
KTK: Pretty good. (Almost) everybody loved the clans, people wanted wedges, and getting the fetches for modern was good. Prowess was so well-received that it became evergreen, Raid was reasonably well-liked (just above average popularity for mechanics all-time), Delve was well-received, and Seige Rhino was... Siege Rhino.
FRF: Well... Monastery Mentor happened, as did interesting wedge commanders and the last Tiny Leaders color combinations were filled.
DTK: This was also reasonably well-liked, although people missed the clans. We got some nice designs that made standard much more interesting and help boost the two-set model's beginning by leaving things like Atarka and CoCo in standard.
ORI: People loved Origins... except for the polarizing poster boy's newest expensive appearance. Still, it's a nice card for standard now that fetches are gone, it's shown up in modern, and it was well-designed. Hangarback Walker is fun, the other flipwalkers are nice, and the storyline contributions were long due. Core sets went out with a bang.
BFZ: ...Let's not.
OGW: Well, on average, BFZ and OGW had a well-balanced power level, but that's like saying that someone with their feet in an oven and head in a freezer is comfortable. Modern died.
SOI: I disagree on this one. I think that it was well-received and very well-designed. Raw power (Nahiri) is balanced with the most Johnny/Vorthos/Melvin-y cards possible (Triskaidekaphobia is fun for all of these player types) and with cards that are both flavorful and powerful (but not overwhelmingly so, like Sorin and Avacyn). The storyline has been told very well through the cards too.
Overall, this remains to be seen. If EMN is a flop, I agree, we're going downhill and SOI was simply an outlier. But if EMN is good, then we fell for a bit with BFZ block and we're back to high standards now.
Most magic sets are filled with purposefully bad cards, which has been the case since Masques (and most of the sets before that were filled with accidentally bad cards). So the Big Exciting Things each set are the handful of eternal playables that may or may not come out and the mediocre cards that are only relatively good because they fill a role in their standard environments.
And when it comes to those eternal-playable good cards, the last couple years have actually been pretty good. OGW's Eldrazi vary between playable and great in every format and Khans block had very powerful cards down to common rarity.
SoI block hasn't really done anything in eternal formats (except the occasional attempt to make Thing in the Ice or Nahiri, the Harbinger into things), but I think it's a reach to try to stretch that into a trend.
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for me the RTR Block was good besides Dragonsmaze. then Theros was fine flavourwise (even if devotion was annoying in standard), but not that great from powerlevel perspective. But at least they reprinted theros. OVerall i did not like the Theros block that much, but it was definitly not as bad as kamigawa for example.
After Theros we got Khans. The whole block was pretty awesome. All 3 Sets had reasonable good cards. And Dig/Treasure Cruise were great for standard. I guess Wotc underestimated them in eternal formats but they reacted pretty fast, so i think it was fine. Overall a really good block.
Then we got BFZ.. i agree that the Set was pretty bad, and i hated it that they went on from rise of the eldrazi instead of zendikar. I guess BFZ would have been much better if they would have taken zendikar as their example instead of rise of the eldrazi.
Oath of the Gatewatch was much better in my oppinion, but still BFZ was bad so i call the whole block a fail.
Now we got Shadows over Innistrat and i think it is a great set. Extremly good flavour and good powerlevel.
So no: There always were better and worse sets and that didnt change at all.
Seriously, though, people ebb and flow with the hobby. Some sets hit right, some miss. I loved theros' flavor, but wasn't a fan of the mechanics in the set. I had a lot of fun with the RTR block despite it not having tons of value beyond the shocklands. BFZ/OGW didn't interest me in the slightest, and SoI is pretty fun.
There is a huge difference in power level between zendikar/scars, and innistrad onwards. Keep in mind that zendikar/scars was a standard format where a deck capable of turn 3 kills was considered nearly unplayable because of the dominance of squadron hawk + jace engines. Innistrad was an amazing block, but it wasn't high powered, with the exception of liliana and snapcaster. RTR/innistrad was even slower, with sphinx's revalation dominating, an theros was utter crap. Honestly khans block + origins has been one of the coolest standard formats in years. Yeah, seige rhino was stupid, but there is at least options for fast fun decks.
But that's the way it's always been.
Tarkir block was pretty damn good if you ask me. It had fetchlands, cool dragons in allied colours, cool Khans, sweet commands and great flavor overall. It lead to sweet 3 colour decks with Theros block and 4 colour decks with BFZ block
I feel Origins had cool flavor behind the walker origins and cool cards
I didn't overly enjoy BFZ block but it was still okay
SOI is cool because of the flavor and has some sweet cards. I have a lot of nostalgia for the original Innistrad though
Eldrazi are strong, but not expensive cards. Its a parasitic theme, but they pushed the cards enough to make a deck (the discard effect is critical to the deck, as that makes it constructed viable, especially with the lands that tap for 2).
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Powerlevel you can expect a pretty linear level. WotC doesnt want to put too much in a set.
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I actually bet current standard decks would do well against most older standard decks with the exception of particularly broken times in magic history.
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RTR-Theros was awesome. I for one REALLY enjoyed Theros and the cards it brought. I had a ton of fun brewing in this format.
THS-KTK was decent I still enjoyed THS, and really really liked Origins, however KTK I felt like was meh at best, though definitely had room to brew which kept me in.
KTK-BFZ was dumb imo. Basically once THS rotated out I lost interest, KTK-DTK was neat and had some brew room, but without THS it just went down hill, 1 deck dominated and the rest sucked.
BFZ- I looked at the spoilers, brewed a few decks on my phone, didnt play a single match.
SOI- Started playng again, flavor is amazing, cards are pretty cool, but not OP. Definitely tons of room to brew and have fun.
there's been some broken common and uncommons lately. Treacure cruise was good enough to be banned/ restricted in every format Khans is legal in now.
delver of secrets was powerful enough to have several legacy and modern decks built around it. Gurmag angler is played a lot of delver and GY based decks
mental misstep is banned/ restricted in every format NPH is legal in.
insolent neonate is adding new angle to dredge decks
inquisition of kozilek is pretty powerful. intangible virtue was powerful enough to be banned in Original Innistrad block contructed
There's probabl a lot more powerful commons and uncommons I'm missing but I'm at work and don't wanna spend too much more time listing "broken" or powerful commons and uncommon cards
I think saying that standard decks won't compete against old standard decks is a broad statement that probably isn't true
I only play limited and I have enjoyed each of the last several sets (not including alternate releases such as Tempest Remastered). Theros was not good in my view for limited but I enjoyed the full Theros block and all of the sets after that.
heavenNyx forbid) the sets like Born of the Gods.On that subject: My lord, have y'all taken a look at the Esper Control decks from the RTR-THE era? RTR Block alone had Sphinx's Revelation, Detention Sphere, the bad-but-still-decent Jace, Cyclonic Rift, Supreme Verdict, down to commons/uncommons like Syncopate, Ultimate Price, Devour Flesh, Azorius Charm & co., and Dispel. I mean, no one thing's broken, but the heck! That's practically the whole Modern version of the deck without fetches!
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