Even though Alliances doesn't have many valuable cards, I'm always surprised how Thawing Glaciers is one of the set's most valuable. In my world view, a valuable card is very often a powerful or useful card. So what makes Thawing Glaciers good enough to deserve that value?
On the surface, it appears to be an engine which churns out basic lands of your choice. But I see Thawing Glaciers playing out in this way:
Turn 1 - Play Glaciers tapped. No mana open.
Turn 2 - Play a land. Activate Glaciers. Get a land, tapped. No mana open. Bounce Glaciers.
Turn 3 - Play Glaciers tapped. Finally have two mana open.
Turn 4 - Play a land. Activate Glaciers. Get a land, tapped. Still only have two mana open. Bounce Glaciers.
Turn 5 - Play Glaciers tapped. Finally have three mana open.
Trying to use Glaciers to churn out lands seems to set you way behind. Sure, you could use Amulet of Vigor which breaks everything, but Glaciers was still valuable even before the Amulet was printed.
So, what makes Thawing Glaciers worth what it's worth?
...being awesome with a violin doesn't mean you're awesome at writing your own songs. And writing good songs doesn't mean you're good enough at playing an instrument or singing to get a contract with a label.
Reflecting Pool: You know, technically, I *CAN* make any color of mana.
Exotic Orchard: Prove it. Do it right now.
Reflecting Pool: Well, not right now. I need some condi....
Exotic Orchard: LIES. GO DIE IN A FIRE.
Reflecting Pool:
its important to note that glaciers doesnt bounce until eot.
so you can bounce it with ravnica bouncelands, or sacrifice it, or untap it and do it again.
...being awesome with a violin doesn't mean you're awesome at writing your own songs. And writing good songs doesn't mean you're good enough at playing an instrument or singing to get a contract with a label.
Reflecting Pool: You know, technically, I *CAN* make any color of mana.
Exotic Orchard: Prove it. Do it right now.
Reflecting Pool: Well, not right now. I need some condi....
Exotic Orchard: LIES. GO DIE IN A FIRE.
Reflecting Pool:
In a control deck, it has valuable use in that you never miss a land drop. True, it's not that great on the first couple of turns, but always getting lands out of it? That's pretty good and definite reusable card advantage. If that control deck is blue based, it gives you options of using up your mana when you're not drawing well or really need a shuffle. That said, it's not all that great in competitive decks anymore.
It gets you a land every time it untaps, granting you: Mana, fixing, thinning. It's best in EDH, but you're talking like it's something expensive and not just six bucks on TCG player.
Way back in the day, if you wanted to fish lands out of your deck, you had to either play green or this. Nowadays it's easier to just throw some fetchlands and searchy artifacts, but back in the day this was the way to consistently pull lands out of your deck.
It's still good in EDH, and maybe some cubes, but its effectiveness has been lost over the years.
Slow? Sure, but consider that if it's in your opening hand, you will never miss a land drop, you won't be colorscrewed, and as the game progresses you'll be continually building resources while thinning your deck of excess lands. Opening with Glaciers and another normal land is generally all you need to secure stability and be able to cast a relevant spell on time. In the early days of Magic, games weren't nearly as fast and the speed of glaciers was worth the trade for stability. Nowadays, if it were reprinted, pretty much only control decks would consider running a copy or two, if any, but at the EDH table where speed can be less important, it's found a new home.
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EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
Even though Alliances doesn't have many valuable cards, I'm always surprised how Thawing Glaciers is one of the set's most valuable. In my world view, a valuable card is very often a powerful or useful card. So what makes Thawing Glaciers good enough to deserve that value?
On the surface, it appears to be an engine which churns out basic lands of your choice. But I see Thawing Glaciers playing out in this way:
Turn 1 - Play Glaciers tapped. No mana open.
Turn 2 - Play a land. Activate Glaciers. Get a land, tapped. No mana open. Bounce Glaciers.
Turn 3 - Play Glaciers tapped. Finally have two mana open.
Turn 4 - Play a land. Activate Glaciers. Get a land, tapped. Still only have two mana open. Bounce Glaciers.
Turn 5 - Play Glaciers tapped. Finally have three mana open.
Trying to use Glaciers to churn out lands seems to set you way behind. Sure, you could use Amulet of Vigor which breaks everything, but Glaciers was still valuable even before the Amulet was printed.
So, what makes Thawing Glaciers worth what it's worth?
How is this better than just straight up ramp or fetching lands? Let's take a deck that wants to do what this card does: scapeshift. Why would scapeshift want this over any of the other ramp cards it already has? That being said, why would this also trump that same ramp in a control build? You seem to sacrifice your first few turns when control matters most and maybe lategame this may be useful but wouldn't you rather have gas than land fetching?
From a practical point of view, I am fairly unsure how this is better than ramp or cantripping.
For your question on valuable, I think the reason it costs as much is purely out of either speculation, flavor or the lines of text on it. I am fairly sure there was a spike at some point in time and it hasn't gone down ever since.
This is the first time I even hear about this card.
Its not, its worse than ramp(it doesn't actually ramp you). But if say you're playing a UB control deck, you're guaranteed to make every other land drop(control decks like making land drops). Since you can activate the glaciers at instant speed, you can fetch your land at the end of your opponent's turn when you don't need to tap out for other spells. Then, next turn, when you'd replay the glaciers, if you need a real land, you can play a land you drew but didn't play because you've been playing glaciers and if you don't need the extra mana now, you can just replay the glaciers and use it on a later turn when its convenient for you. If you're a deck that's trying to get to 6,7, 8 mana ASAP glaciers isn't the card you're looking for. But if you want to consistently hit your land drops, glaciers have got your back.
Thawing glaciers is extremely powerful! In the right deck.
If you are used to the speed of current standard, with the diverse selection of cards to do all kinds of abilities, you may not see the benefit.
You ask the difference between this and ramp? This is reusable. Combine it with untap, or landfall triggers it gets better.
It is not nearly as powerful as it once was, but I'd bet if it was reprinted, it would still see play. It may even allow decks that couldn't exist without it to exist, potentially some new form of Draw/Go.
It doesn't play well in legacy/vintage because of just how fast those decks are. But it a slower format, or in a format that can be slowed down, this card is solid reusable mana fixing/searching/deck thinning.
I've been playing this game long enough, to remember when many cards "weren't good". It is amazing how the power cycles. I could have gotten 4 LEDs for $1, cause they were worthless outside memory jar. I remember watching lotuses trade for shivans, cause shivans won games. Now glaciers is on the lower end, but is still a solid card.
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I basically only play EDH:
Damia, Jenara, Xiahou Dun, Mareth, Nekusar, Oloro, Kresh, Deretti
Even though Alliances doesn't have many valuable cards, I'm always surprised how Thawing Glaciers is one of the set's most valuable. In my world view, a valuable card is very often a powerful or useful card. So what makes Thawing Glaciers good enough to deserve that value?
On the surface, it appears to be an engine which churns out basic lands of your choice. But I see Thawing Glaciers playing out in this way:
Turn 1 - Play Glaciers tapped. No mana open.
Turn 2 - Play a land. Activate Glaciers. Get a land, tapped. No mana open. Bounce Glaciers.
Turn 3 - Play Glaciers tapped. Finally have two mana open.
Turn 4 - Play a land. Activate Glaciers. Get a land, tapped. Still only have two mana open. Bounce Glaciers.
Turn 5 - Play Glaciers tapped. Finally have three mana open.
Trying to use Glaciers to churn out lands seems to set you way behind. Sure, you could use Amulet of Vigor which breaks everything, but Glaciers was still valuable even before the Amulet was printed.
So, what makes Thawing Glaciers worth what it's worth?
How is this better than just straight up ramp or fetching lands? Let's take a deck that wants to do what this card does: scapeshift. Why would scapeshift want this over any of the other ramp cards it already has? That being said, why would this also trump that same ramp in a control build? You seem to sacrifice your first few turns when control matters most and maybe lategame this may be useful but wouldn't you rather have gas than land fetching?
From a practical point of view, I am fairly unsure how this is better than ramp or cantripping.
For your question on valuable, I think the reason it costs as much is purely out of either speculation, flavor or the lines of text on it. I am fairly sure there was a spike at some point in time and it hasn't gone down ever since.
This is the first time I even hear about this card.
Dude, Thawing Glaciers used to be so broken it was banned (and still is in block constructed). I remember when this thing was printed, decks ran 4 of them and they were $25 a pop. Yeah, it's not as powerful as it used to be, but to get a sample of its power, next time you play some commander, convince your friends to let you start with a copy or a proxy of it in your opening 7 as an experiment. You'll get a small taste for its power; back in the day this was good, Magic was much slower, and Balduvian Horde was the best thing printed since Juzam Djinn. I remember Horde being $20 because it was SO fast, Avalanche Riders getting played to combat the Glaciers, and Force of Will was $3. You're talking about an age where Kjeldoran Outpost was used as a finisher.
Games need to run longer for players to see what Glaciers offered back in the day, so its home is in Commander now.
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Thanks for all the great feedback, especially from the old timers who actually used it.
If that control deck is blue based, it gives you options of using up your mana when you're not drawing well or really need a shuffle.
Ah, I hadn't thought of the ability to shuffle. I recently read that Sensei's Divining Top is like the third most frequently played Commander card. Glacier's shuffles would work well with that.
you're talking like it's something expensive and not just six bucks on TCG player.
Yes, six dollars seems high for a card that seemed very slow. Star City has it at $10, third most valuable in Alliances, below the Legacy relevant Helm of Obedience and Force of Will.
Dude, Thawing Glaciers used to be so broken it was banned (and still is in block constructed). ... You're talking about an age where Kjeldoran Outpost was used as a finisher.
Being banned in block constructed moves it into an elite echelon of truly broken cards. Still, I love Kjeldoran Outpost so much more.
...being awesome with a violin doesn't mean you're awesome at writing your own songs. And writing good songs doesn't mean you're good enough at playing an instrument or singing to get a contract with a label.
Reflecting Pool: You know, technically, I *CAN* make any color of mana.
Exotic Orchard: Prove it. Do it right now.
Reflecting Pool: Well, not right now. I need some condi....
Exotic Orchard: LIES. GO DIE IN A FIRE.
Reflecting Pool:
Never saw this before, will have to add to my EDH, fun interactions to be had with Omnath, Locus of Rage and Mina and Denn, Wildborn. Ensuring at least 3 landfall triggers a turn sounds good IMO
Thanks for all the great feedback, especially from the old timers who actually used it.
Thawing Glaciers has actually seen some play in Legacy High Tide. Because that deck frequentlyresetslands, Glaciers can provide a lot of value, especially when the engine cares about basic lands. (And yes, if an island enters the battlefield after a High Tide is cast, that island still gets the bonus.)
It's not always used though, because playing Glaciers costs a land drop and Wasteland is extremely prevalent in the format.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
I wouldn't say powerful and expensive are directly correlated. Price is more correlated to rarity than to power. There are some very powerful commons and uncommons that aren't expensive, e.g. the one mana cantrips (Ponder, Preordain, Brainstorm), Counterspell, etc. Thawing Glaciers is a legacy legal card that is nowhere near powerful enough for Legacy, because it is way too slow. But it is unique. The only similar card is Maze's End which requires a lot of support. So if you want to have card advantage/fixing through one land then it's going to cost you and apparently enough people want it for casual that demand exceeds supply; therefore, it is expensive.
Just remembered that it's also good to play in a deck featuring mass land destruction, like Jokulhaups. Cast mass destruction spell, drop Glaciers, recover. Thanks to the nature of the card returning to your hand, you can use it before and after casting said spell. This makes it a potent effect in EDH decks utilizing MLD.
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Having Thawing Glaciers means you'll never run out of lands. In the old old days there were some slow and grindy decks that really took advantage of the constant flow of lands. Also in the old "all land/no land" mulligan world having a 1 land 1 glacier hand was fine. Once Wasteland came out Thawing Glaciers became unplayable in tournaments outside of very specific situations like High Tide / Time Spiral.
In commander the format hitting land drops is vital and TG helps you get there. Also since a bunch of good landfall cards have been printed Thawing Glaciers helps those interactions as well.
These days i dont put Thawing Glaciers in every deck but its something i consider for most of my commander decks.
I mean, sure it is slow, but it is repeatable card advantage. It gets pretty nifty in longer games--which is why it still has a place in some commander lists. I have actually tutored for it in my venerable Dakkon Blackblade control list.
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Sig by Dark Night Cavalier at Heroes of the Plane Studios!
It provides incremental card advantage and the opportunity cost of running it is very low. Hold it in hand until you would miss a land drop. Activate it with a spare bit of mana the next turn, or whenever it's convenient. Drop it again next turn if you don't top deck a new land.
It's powerful because it's effectively a repeatable 1: Draw a card and it does so while being on a mana source, so early you can use it for mana, and late as a mana sink. Most of the value though is because it's RL'ed it's not played very heavily.
It's powerful because it's effectively a repeatable 1: Draw a card and it does so while being on a mana source, so early you can use it for mana, and late as a mana sink. Most of the value though is because it's RL'ed it's not played very heavily.
It's powerful because it's effectively a repeatable 1: Draw a card and it does so while being on a mana source, so early you can use it for mana, and late as a mana sink. Most of the value though is because it's RL'ed it's not played very heavily.
It doesn't tap for mana.
My mistake, however it does still provide mana and effectively 1 extra card per turn.
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On the surface, it appears to be an engine which churns out basic lands of your choice. But I see Thawing Glaciers playing out in this way:
Turn 1 - Play Glaciers tapped. No mana open.
Turn 2 - Play a land. Activate Glaciers. Get a land, tapped. No mana open. Bounce Glaciers.
Turn 3 - Play Glaciers tapped. Finally have two mana open.
Turn 4 - Play a land. Activate Glaciers. Get a land, tapped. Still only have two mana open. Bounce Glaciers.
Turn 5 - Play Glaciers tapped. Finally have three mana open.
Trying to use Glaciers to churn out lands seems to set you way behind. Sure, you could use Amulet of Vigor which breaks everything, but Glaciers was still valuable even before the Amulet was printed.
So, what makes Thawing Glaciers worth what it's worth?
FireFox31
Validating Netdecks and Land Smackdown
so you can bounce it with ravnica bouncelands, or sacrifice it, or untap it and do it again.
FireFox31
Validating Netdecks and Land Smackdown
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
It hasn't aged well.
It's still good in EDH, and maybe some cubes, but its effectiveness has been lost over the years.
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
From a practical point of view, I am fairly unsure how this is better than ramp or cantripping.
For your question on valuable, I think the reason it costs as much is purely out of either speculation, flavor or the lines of text on it. I am fairly sure there was a spike at some point in time and it hasn't gone down ever since.
This is the first time I even hear about this card.
RETIRED - GAME SUCKS
Modern:
UUUMerfolksUUU
RGoblinsR
Ad Nauseam
BR 8 Racks RB
WUB Mill BUW
Legacy:
XOps! All splels! X
What I think of MaRo
If you are used to the speed of current standard, with the diverse selection of cards to do all kinds of abilities, you may not see the benefit.
You ask the difference between this and ramp? This is reusable. Combine it with untap, or landfall triggers it gets better.
It is not nearly as powerful as it once was, but I'd bet if it was reprinted, it would still see play. It may even allow decks that couldn't exist without it to exist, potentially some new form of Draw/Go.
It doesn't play well in legacy/vintage because of just how fast those decks are. But it a slower format, or in a format that can be slowed down, this card is solid reusable mana fixing/searching/deck thinning.
I've been playing this game long enough, to remember when many cards "weren't good". It is amazing how the power cycles. I could have gotten 4 LEDs for $1, cause they were worthless outside memory jar. I remember watching lotuses trade for shivans, cause shivans won games. Now glaciers is on the lower end, but is still a solid card.
Damia, Jenara, Xiahou Dun, Mareth, Nekusar, Oloro, Kresh, Deretti
Dude, Thawing Glaciers used to be so broken it was banned (and still is in block constructed). I remember when this thing was printed, decks ran 4 of them and they were $25 a pop. Yeah, it's not as powerful as it used to be, but to get a sample of its power, next time you play some commander, convince your friends to let you start with a copy or a proxy of it in your opening 7 as an experiment. You'll get a small taste for its power; back in the day this was good, Magic was much slower, and Balduvian Horde was the best thing printed since Juzam Djinn. I remember Horde being $20 because it was SO fast, Avalanche Riders getting played to combat the Glaciers, and Force of Will was $3. You're talking about an age where Kjeldoran Outpost was used as a finisher.
Games need to run longer for players to see what Glaciers offered back in the day, so its home is in Commander now.
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
Ah, I hadn't thought of the ability to shuffle. I recently read that Sensei's Divining Top is like the third most frequently played Commander card. Glacier's shuffles would work well with that.
Yes, six dollars seems high for a card that seemed very slow. Star City has it at $10, third most valuable in Alliances, below the Legacy relevant Helm of Obedience and Force of Will.
Being banned in block constructed moves it into an elite echelon of truly broken cards. Still, I love Kjeldoran Outpost so much more.
FireFox31
Validating Netdecks and Land Smackdown
It's not always used though, because playing Glaciers costs a land drop and Wasteland is extremely prevalent in the format.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
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UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
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EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
In commander the format hitting land drops is vital and TG helps you get there. Also since a bunch of good landfall cards have been printed Thawing Glaciers helps those interactions as well.
These days i dont put Thawing Glaciers in every deck but its something i consider for most of my commander decks.
In Progress
GBIshkanah, Grafwidow ~ BWGRTymna the Weaver & Tana, the Bloodsower ~ UGRashmi, Eternities Crafter ~ RGAtarka, World Render
Pauper: Burn
Modern: Burn
Legacy: Burn
EDH: Marath, Will of the Wild - Ramp/Combo | Anafenza the Foremost - French | Uril, the Miststalker - Voltron | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury - Goodstuff
Ghost Council of Orzhov - Tokens | Lazav, Dimir Mastermind - Control | Isamaru, Hound of Konda - Tiny Leaders
It doesn't tap for mana.
Pauper: Burn
Modern: Burn
Legacy: Burn
EDH: Marath, Will of the Wild - Ramp/Combo | Anafenza the Foremost - French | Uril, the Miststalker - Voltron | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury - Goodstuff
Ghost Council of Orzhov - Tokens | Lazav, Dimir Mastermind - Control | Isamaru, Hound of Konda - Tiny Leaders
My mistake, however it does still provide mana and effectively 1 extra card per turn.