So the attendance at GP Las Vegas is capped at 4500. At $60 per entry, the total entry collected will be $270,000 while the total prize pay out is only $30,000.
Even with the venue fees, product costs, and staffing, I still believe this is bordering on highway robbery.
So the attendance at GP Las Vegas is capped at 4500. At $60 per entry, the total entry collected will be $270,000 while the total prize pay out is only $30,000.
Even with the venue fees, product costs, and staffing, I still believe this is bordering on highway robbery.
Do you know the amounts for the venue rental, insurance, staffing, security, and all the other expenses that go with running an event of that size?
I'm sure there's some profit there, but running a 4500 person event is not cheap. If you think it's highway robbery, the solution is simple: don't go. But I don't see how you can be surprised that a for profit company is running an event that makes a profit.
So the attendance at GP Las Vegas is capped at 4500. At $60 per entry, the total entry collected will be $270,000 while the total prize pay out is only $30,000.
Even with the venue fees, product costs, and staffing, I still believe this is bordering on highway robbery.
That and the fact that it still only pays out to top 64. W/ magic growing so much they need to change the tournament structure to be like poker...more players, more places payout.
Scaling the prize payout based on attendance can run afoul of gambling laws, so the prize structure enforced by WotC has to remain constant, regardless of attendance. Frustrating, but necessary.
You get product worth over 60 USD even if you don't go day two, the box price for MM is around 250 USD (24 boosters).
If anything, that's the real highway robbery. $7 for a pack of cards that cost less than a penny to bang out, and being all reprints I don't see a lot of time spend on design and R&D.
Scaling the prize payout based on attendance can run afoul of gambling laws, so the prize structure enforced by WotC has to remain constant, regardless of attendance. Frustrating, but necessary.
Do you have a link to said gambling laws? I've never seen a gambling law that talked about sliding scales of prizes. I've been to numerous game days and FNM's and other sanctioned tournaments that have a sliding scale of payouts depending on attendance. Is it a Nevada thing?
I actually don't--a lot of it boils down to the couple of GPs I've day 2'd and voiced my complaints about the prize payout versus attendance. When you consider the fact that people who X-4'd with average breakers probably missed top 64 in Charlotte, it really boils down to a restructuring of things.
Should I find any documentation, I'll edit my post.
EDIT: I think the basic argument one of my grinder friends gave me was that because there are cash payouts, if you start scaling the payouts based on what's taken in, it gets closer to gambling than a tournament of skill (obviously stretched, because there are some elements of luck).
I actually don't--a lot of it boils down to the couple of GPs I've day 2'd and voiced my complaints about the prize payout versus attendance. When you consider the fact that people who X-4'd with average breakers probably missed top 64 in Charlotte, it really boils down to a restructuring of things.
Should I find any documentation, I'll edit my post.
I agree that the prize payout should be reworked, it was the anti gambling thing that sounds odd to me. I grew up in AC and PA passed gaming laws a few years ago, and I've always had a fascination with gambling, I've read the pre and post legality gaming laws and I've never seen any gambling law talk about sliding prize payouts before. And I've been in plenty of events (both MTG and non MTG, I used to be a fairly competitive billiards player) with sliding payouts based on attendance. Seems like something that would come up a lot if it was the case
EDIT: I think the basic argument one of my grinder friends gave me was that because there are cash payouts, if you start scaling the payouts based on what's taken in, it gets closer to gambling than a tournament of skill (obviously stretched, because there are some elements of luck).
I don't see how the payouts have anything to do with whether it's a tournament of skill or luck. Changing the payouts does not change the nature of the competition.
And even if gambling laws were a problem in general, I can't see them being a problem in Vegas. So scale the payouts as a general policy and adjust accordingly based on local laws, like they did with that European GP where they couldn't do cash prizes.
I actually don't--a lot of it boils down to the couple of GPs I've day 2'd and voiced my complaints about the prize payout versus attendance. When you consider the fact that people who X-4'd with average breakers probably missed top 64 in Charlotte, it really boils down to a restructuring of things.
Should I find any documentation, I'll edit my post.
EDIT: I think the basic argument one of my grinder friends gave me was that because there are cash payouts, if you start scaling the payouts based on what's taken in, it gets closer to gambling than a tournament of skill (obviously stretched, because there are some elements of luck).
I don't think thats the case. I know in some countries (Germany comes to mind for some reason) cash payouts of any kind can run afoul of gambling laws, but I've never heard of a sliding scale of payouts for cash or non cash prizes having anything to do with gambling. Gambling is usually determined by the game being considered a game of skill or chance by the law. Some states determine what is legal or illegal by the size of the wager, not the nature of the game.
There are laws that are involved with payout amounts, but I have only seen them in states that have legalized gambling, and they are in place to protect gamblers from bets that pay out less without a corresponding increase in the odds of winning (Big 6/8 being an illegal craps bet in AC, for example) or with defined percent payouts from computer RNG games such as slots.
If I had to guess why they have a fixed prize structure it's to guarantee a certain fixed prize pool up front that can be budgeted for, and handling payouts is not an easy (or cheap) thing to do at large events. Also the more cash you have floating around, the more theft there tends to be.
The only law I have seen that discussed payouts was regarding charity events, which usually are an exception to anti gambling laws, but the states and payout and rake for charity are all defined and must be followed. Before Delaware had legalized table games, for example, you could still run a Monte Carlo night as a charity event, but an individual bet size could not exceed $1, and a minimum 50% of the prize pool was raked for the charity.
30,000 is still being used since gps used to be $30 entry with roughly a thousand participants i think wotc will increase prize support for gps since attendance trends have increased
Used to have roughly a thousand participants? GP Houston had 999 players just last week.
Figure to see a casino company take Magic the Gathering past the Star City Games and Hasbro idea of professional gaming and on the next level.
While a neat idea, MTG doesn't really have any cross consumer appeal. If you don't play, you aren't going to watch an event. Poker is exciting to non poker players because you have potentially huge amounts of money getting involved every hand, and the rules and simple to learn.
I could see event organizers putting together larger and larger events, but I MTG is still very much an extremely niche hobby, not nearly mainstream enough to go to poker levels IMHO
While a neat idea, MTG doesn't really have any cross consumer appeal. If you don't play, you aren't going to watch an event. Poker is exciting to non poker players because you have potentially huge amounts of money getting involved every hand, and the rules and simple to learn.
I could see event organizers putting together larger and larger events, but I MTG is still very much an extremely niche hobby, not nearly mainstream enough to go to poker levels IMHO
Yeah, MTG is way to complicated for non-MTG players to watch. Even if they knew all the rules they don`t know what the card do.
Imagine people watching Melira Pod. "Think he has this locked up, he has Melira and Redcap out already and he is about to cast V. Seer and LSV has nothing." Game just ends, and all the people watching are like, how did LSV lose 20 life?
There are a ton of decks like that. What`s going on with that storm or dredge deck. Cascade can also be confusing.
I think the biggest side affect of this Grand Prix will be the casino's recognizing that that 4,500 people who rarely/if ever gamble according to their own rewards programs just showed up in Las Vegas to spend $60 each to win $30,000.
Like the OP that a $240k+ swing. I will guarantee you that the owners of the venue (the hotel/casino) can plan and manage these events for tens of thousands of dollars; not hundreds of thousands.
Figure to see a casino company take Magic the Gathering past the Star City Games and Hasbro idea of professional gaming and on the next level. 10,000,000 players world-wide is a huge draw. Having Steve Wynn, or MGM or Ceasars Entertain (owns Harrahs) take this to the Poker level. Right now, people are flying in and dropping $60 to play. Plus side events.
The main event would be a gambling style entry fees to some % payout. Figure $250 a person to enter and 50-65% payout. But the side-events would be limited to 200 people allowed in at $50 each with a $5,000 payout. Harrahs and Ceasars worldwide would host monthly "grinders" with airfare/hotel/entry to the pro-event. You'd have them literally all over the world.
With FNM and regional tourneyment play already established by Hasbro, the field to cultivate new 'casino pro-level' players is ready. With real gambling of pro-poker leaving many people realizing that they need more practice, the game of MTG paying out serious money (not poker level) to build up peoples play skills would be very attractive. The game is nothing more than the exercise of critical thinking, control, reading etc. All skills that are needed in Poker but are very expensive to learn. Think MTG is expensive, play cash poker games trying to get good at it. Hundreds and Thousands in a weekend. .
Question. Where do you get the judges to run these mega events? One of the reasons why GP Vegas has been capped is there are ~151 members of staff turning up to run the event. Even if all of them are qualified judges with a full complement of 4,500 players you are looking at a ratio of 15 matches per judge round 1. This isn't taking into account that some of those 151 staff aren't going to be floor judges but tasked with other jobs like score keeping and deck checks the ratio is going to look even worse say 1 judge per 20 matches may be...
It is a nice idea that the casino companies might be able to take it to tournaments of that level but the constraint is not in product/space it is in the amount of people qualified as judges who are going to be available for that tournament.
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Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and start slitting throats.
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I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
Question. Where do you get the judges to run these mega events? One of the reasons why GP Vegas has been capped is there are ~151 members of staff turning up to run the event. Even if all of them are qualified judges with a full complement of 4,500 players you are looking at a ratio of 15 matches per judge round 1. This isn't taking into account that some of those 151 staff aren't going to be floor judges but tasked with other jobs like score keeping and deck checks the ratio is going to look even worse say 1 judge per 20 matches may be...
It is a nice idea that the casino companies might be able to take it to tournaments of that level but the constraint is not in product/space it is in the amount of people qualified as judges who are going to be available for that tournament.
Pay them.
If you treat judges as the professionals that they are rather than as volunteers you will get more qualified people willing to do the job.
WoTC doesn't see any of the money from entry. They sell the product to the TO and give them the judge comp packets and that is it.
They can't scale the payouts due to Gambling laws in the US.
Also, I doubt casino's would want to run magic events. That would involve Wizards getting Magic past the Gaming Commission in Nevada, and then it becomes a gambling game and makes it hard to do in the rest of the World.
Most judges make more money doing their actual jobs than judging. You want judges who are enthusiastic about judging and doing it for the love of the game and the community.
If you do it purely as a job, you'll see a rapid decline in the quality of judges. Judges are overall compensated decently. Considering its product and foils, it's also not taxed.
If you treat judges as the professionals that they are rather than as volunteers you will get more qualified people willing to do the job.
If you pay judges, then they are employees and you have to go through a huge amount of legal work. Other than judges directly employed by the TO (relatively few), the rest are probably getting no direct monetary return.
They may, however, be getting their rooms, food, and possibly even transportation paid. Some get free product worth $100's. Not to mention promo cards worth worth a bundle as well.
If you pay judges, then they are employees and you have to go through a huge amount of legal work. Other than judges directly employed by the TO (relatively few), the rest are probably getting no direct monetary return.
Hasbro has good lawyers. They already have lots of employees and handle that quite well.
As a general economic principle, if you want something done well you pay people a fair wage to do it. I'm sure there are many people who would love to judge and would make excellent judges, but cannot for financial reasons.
Follow the example of professional sports and pay the officials proper wages.
Judges get paid with the promos they receive at each of these events. They also get fed during the events. I believe lodging is up to them, but I'm not positive....I'm sure a judge will correct me on this.This is what I've read about Vegas regarding the judges:
"So I've been chatting a bit with some of the judges involved in wrangling this beast. GP Vegas started off with what you'd consider to be a large staff for a GP. It grew from there. Eight different teams -- and I do mean teams, we're talking 8-10 judges apiece -- were on standby, and called up as the prereg numbers climbed.
For reference: the main event of a Grand Prix typically requires at least the skills and knowledge of an L2 judge. And Modern Masters is a more complex and more judge-intensive Limited format than we've seen in a good long while. With that noted:
One-third of all Level 3 judges in the world are going to be on the staff for this event.
One-third of all the Level 4 judges are going to be on staff for this event.
Half of the Level 5 judges are on staff for this event.
Just shy of 40% of all L2+ judges in the United States are currently on staff for this event. So far as I can tell, every L2+ judge in the Southwest US region is now on staff for this event. There are L2s and L3s coming from Europe to Vegas, and believe me, that ain't cheap.
Grand Prix Las Vegas currently has over 150 judges staffed. And it's still not enough. As I write this, there are judges who weren't on the initial staff and weren't even on the emergency standby teams, who are booking last-minute flights and negotiating for places to stay for the weekend.
Every thing that can be done to make this event run, and run well, is being done. But there is simply a limit to what can be done. A salient comment was made to me, to the effect that this event is not testing the capacity of the convention center; it's testing the capacity of the judge program. Actual quote: "we were adding reserve teams through this morning, but we simply ran out of L2s".
eds: Friend just called me and he's waiting in the line that spans around the building once and it's starting to lap itself, just to get into the facility. The doors haven't opened yet.
"Talkin outta turn....That's a paddlin'. Starin' at my sandals....That's a paddlin'. Paddlin' the school canoe....You better believe that's a paddlin'!" --Jasper
Slightly off-topic, but if gambling laws currently on the books are holding us back from sliding-scale prize payouts, then why aren't we working to get those laws OFF the books? The Magic player base is 10 million strong, many of which are voting age, and Hasbro has an army of lawyers that can help out.
What is the reasoning behind most of these gambling regulations? Do having these regulations in place create any jobs? Do they protect anyone's constitutional rights? Is someone getting fed because of these laws? Do these laws generate any revenue for the governing body?
If it is a moral issue, which I assume it is, then we have to decide whether we want our government to decide what is moral for all of us, instead of letting each individual decide their own morality, barring the extreme acts like theft and murder of course. "If you don't like gambling, don't gamble."
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You can't always win, and just because you lose doesn't mean you played badly.
Even if you lose, it is important to remain confident in your ability to make good plays and decisions. Lose that and you are truly lost.
Testing is great, and the better the testing is, the better off you'll be.
It is impossible to tilt and play well.
It is possible to make no mistakes and still lose.
They can't scale the payouts due to Gambling laws in the US.
Once again, source?
If you pay judges, then they are employees and you have to go through a huge amount of legal work
They would almost certainly be hired as 1099 contractors for the day. There's not that much hassle
Slightly off-topic, but if gambling laws currently on the books are holding us back from sliding-scale prize payouts, then why aren't we working to get those laws OFF the books?
I would need to see a relevant statute before I believed the payout schedule has anything to do with gambling laws. Like I said I've read gambling laws before in states pre and post legalized gambling and never saw any mention of sliding payouts being illegal. And MANY events have graduated payouts based on attendants. Every pool tournament I ever played in was run this way, for example.
It sounds a lot like the legal "theory" of the RL to me. Just a boogeyman to fill in the unknown.
Even with the venue fees, product costs, and staffing, I still believe this is bordering on highway robbery.
Do you know the amounts for the venue rental, insurance, staffing, security, and all the other expenses that go with running an event of that size?
I'm sure there's some profit there, but running a 4500 person event is not cheap. If you think it's highway robbery, the solution is simple: don't go. But I don't see how you can be surprised that a for profit company is running an event that makes a profit.
Yeah I didn't think so
That and the fact that it still only pays out to top 64. W/ magic growing so much they need to change the tournament structure to be like poker...more players, more places payout.
[GTC] Gatecrash Patch for MWS (249/249)
If anything, that's the real highway robbery. $7 for a pack of cards that cost less than a penny to bang out, and being all reprints I don't see a lot of time spend on design and R&D.
Do you have a link to said gambling laws? I've never seen a gambling law that talked about sliding scales of prizes. I've been to numerous game days and FNM's and other sanctioned tournaments that have a sliding scale of payouts depending on attendance. Is it a Nevada thing?
Should I find any documentation, I'll edit my post.
EDIT: I think the basic argument one of my grinder friends gave me was that because there are cash payouts, if you start scaling the payouts based on what's taken in, it gets closer to gambling than a tournament of skill (obviously stretched, because there are some elements of luck).
[GTC] Gatecrash Patch for MWS (249/249)
I agree that the prize payout should be reworked, it was the anti gambling thing that sounds odd to me. I grew up in AC and PA passed gaming laws a few years ago, and I've always had a fascination with gambling, I've read the pre and post legality gaming laws and I've never seen any gambling law talk about sliding prize payouts before. And I've been in plenty of events (both MTG and non MTG, I used to be a fairly competitive billiards player) with sliding payouts based on attendance. Seems like something that would come up a lot if it was the case
I don't see how the payouts have anything to do with whether it's a tournament of skill or luck. Changing the payouts does not change the nature of the competition.
And even if gambling laws were a problem in general, I can't see them being a problem in Vegas. So scale the payouts as a general policy and adjust accordingly based on local laws, like they did with that European GP where they couldn't do cash prizes.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
I don't think thats the case. I know in some countries (Germany comes to mind for some reason) cash payouts of any kind can run afoul of gambling laws, but I've never heard of a sliding scale of payouts for cash or non cash prizes having anything to do with gambling. Gambling is usually determined by the game being considered a game of skill or chance by the law. Some states determine what is legal or illegal by the size of the wager, not the nature of the game.
There are laws that are involved with payout amounts, but I have only seen them in states that have legalized gambling, and they are in place to protect gamblers from bets that pay out less without a corresponding increase in the odds of winning (Big 6/8 being an illegal craps bet in AC, for example) or with defined percent payouts from computer RNG games such as slots.
If I had to guess why they have a fixed prize structure it's to guarantee a certain fixed prize pool up front that can be budgeted for, and handling payouts is not an easy (or cheap) thing to do at large events. Also the more cash you have floating around, the more theft there tends to be.
The only law I have seen that discussed payouts was regarding charity events, which usually are an exception to anti gambling laws, but the states and payout and rake for charity are all defined and must be followed. Before Delaware had legalized table games, for example, you could still run a Monte Carlo night as a charity event, but an individual bet size could not exceed $1, and a minimum 50% of the prize pool was raked for the charity.
Used to have roughly a thousand participants? GP Houston had 999 players just last week.
While a neat idea, MTG doesn't really have any cross consumer appeal. If you don't play, you aren't going to watch an event. Poker is exciting to non poker players because you have potentially huge amounts of money getting involved every hand, and the rules and simple to learn.
I could see event organizers putting together larger and larger events, but I MTG is still very much an extremely niche hobby, not nearly mainstream enough to go to poker levels IMHO
Yeah, MTG is way to complicated for non-MTG players to watch. Even if they knew all the rules they don`t know what the card do.
Imagine people watching Melira Pod. "Think he has this locked up, he has Melira and Redcap out already and he is about to cast V. Seer and LSV has nothing." Game just ends, and all the people watching are like, how did LSV lose 20 life?
There are a ton of decks like that. What`s going on with that storm or dredge deck. Cascade can also be confusing.
Question. Where do you get the judges to run these mega events? One of the reasons why GP Vegas has been capped is there are ~151 members of staff turning up to run the event. Even if all of them are qualified judges with a full complement of 4,500 players you are looking at a ratio of 15 matches per judge round 1. This isn't taking into account that some of those 151 staff aren't going to be floor judges but tasked with other jobs like score keeping and deck checks the ratio is going to look even worse say 1 judge per 20 matches may be...
It is a nice idea that the casino companies might be able to take it to tournaments of that level but the constraint is not in product/space it is in the amount of people qualified as judges who are going to be available for that tournament.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
The Crafters' Rules Guru
Pay them.
If you treat judges as the professionals that they are rather than as volunteers you will get more qualified people willing to do the job.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
They can't scale the payouts due to Gambling laws in the US.
Also, I doubt casino's would want to run magic events. That would involve Wizards getting Magic past the Gaming Commission in Nevada, and then it becomes a gambling game and makes it hard to do in the rest of the World.
If you do it purely as a job, you'll see a rapid decline in the quality of judges. Judges are overall compensated decently. Considering its product and foils, it's also not taxed.
If you pay judges, then they are employees and you have to go through a huge amount of legal work. Other than judges directly employed by the TO (relatively few), the rest are probably getting no direct monetary return.
They may, however, be getting their rooms, food, and possibly even transportation paid. Some get free product worth $100's. Not to mention promo cards worth worth a bundle as well.
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Hasbro has good lawyers. They already have lots of employees and handle that quite well.
As a general economic principle, if you want something done well you pay people a fair wage to do it. I'm sure there are many people who would love to judge and would make excellent judges, but cannot for financial reasons.
Follow the example of professional sports and pay the officials proper wages.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
"So I've been chatting a bit with some of the judges involved in wrangling this beast. GP Vegas started off with what you'd consider to be a large staff for a GP. It grew from there. Eight different teams -- and I do mean teams, we're talking 8-10 judges apiece -- were on standby, and called up as the prereg numbers climbed.
For reference: the main event of a Grand Prix typically requires at least the skills and knowledge of an L2 judge. And Modern Masters is a more complex and more judge-intensive Limited format than we've seen in a good long while. With that noted:
One-third of all Level 3 judges in the world are going to be on the staff for this event.
One-third of all the Level 4 judges are going to be on staff for this event.
Half of the Level 5 judges are on staff for this event.
Just shy of 40% of all L2+ judges in the United States are currently on staff for this event. So far as I can tell, every L2+ judge in the Southwest US region is now on staff for this event. There are L2s and L3s coming from Europe to Vegas, and believe me, that ain't cheap.
Grand Prix Las Vegas currently has over 150 judges staffed. And it's still not enough. As I write this, there are judges who weren't on the initial staff and weren't even on the emergency standby teams, who are booking last-minute flights and negotiating for places to stay for the weekend.
Every thing that can be done to make this event run, and run well, is being done. But there is simply a limit to what can be done. A salient comment was made to me, to the effect that this event is not testing the capacity of the convention center; it's testing the capacity of the judge program. Actual quote: "we were adding reserve teams through this morning, but we simply ran out of L2s".
eds: Friend just called me and he's waiting in the line that spans around the building once and it's starting to lap itself, just to get into the facility. The doors haven't opened yet.
What is the reasoning behind most of these gambling regulations? Do having these regulations in place create any jobs? Do they protect anyone's constitutional rights? Is someone getting fed because of these laws? Do these laws generate any revenue for the governing body?
If it is a moral issue, which I assume it is, then we have to decide whether we want our government to decide what is moral for all of us, instead of letting each individual decide their own morality, barring the extreme acts like theft and murder of course. "If you don't like gambling, don't gamble."
~ Brian DeMars
Once again, source?
They would almost certainly be hired as 1099 contractors for the day. There's not that much hassle
I would need to see a relevant statute before I believed the payout schedule has anything to do with gambling laws. Like I said I've read gambling laws before in states pre and post legalized gambling and never saw any mention of sliding payouts being illegal. And MANY events have graduated payouts based on attendants. Every pool tournament I ever played in was run this way, for example.
It sounds a lot like the legal "theory" of the RL to me. Just a boogeyman to fill in the unknown.
Try trading at your local game store.. and you will see exactly what I mean. They nickel and dime everything.
I'm not surprised that a vendor run by magic people would also try to nickel and dime the players.
That being said, Vegas is not really the place to try to nickel and dime people.
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It may 10 million strong but I think a big chunk of those aren't US citizens.