I have a question about a judge call that was made at GP Indianapolis. My friend and I both made day 2 of the event, him going x-1 and me going x-2. In round 11 my friend is playing on the table across from me, and while I was sideboarding, I noticed a judge over there. Both players look really upset about whatever was happening, then my friends pulls the judge over to talk to him. I could tell something happened, that was not in my friends favor. After I finished my match I went over and talked to my friend about what happened. I guess my friend was swinging in for lethal damage, when his opponent started taking forever, and was counting all his permanents/cards. After, a bit he calls a judge over and says my friend drew an extra card. My friend was like, "No I have an extra card because you mulliganed down to 6". The judge asked the opponent if he took a mulligan and he replied with a no. Right then and there my opponent blatantly lied to the judge. You are probably thinking, oh that shouldn't matter because there is no proof that he didn't mulligan. Well the judge then asked my friend if he has any proof that he took a mulligan and my friend responded with a no. The judge argues in favor of the opponent and my friend get a game loss to win the round. My friend does appeal to the head judge, but he says the same thing.
How does this make any sense? Is the guy friends with the judge or just more well know? I can not imagine that be the case, but I don't understand how they could make that ruling. I'm assuming I can not post his name on here, but I really want to make aware of this cheater. Let me know what you guys think.
Welcome to Competitive REL. It is encouraged that you write down EVERYTHING on those score pads they give you. Sucks that's how it worked out, but there are sharks at GPs
Even for a one-sided story, this one is missing some details. Like for instance, how was it determined that your friend had an "extra" card? Did he and his opponent cast the exact same number of spells for the duration of the game, with no extra draw effects and no mulligans?
Seems like someone isn't saying something. It could very well be the case that your friend was in the wrong and tried to save face by telling you a weak story.
Actually if your friend wanted to appeal he would of had to do so immediately before cards got scooped up. Its a painstaking process to prove who drew a extra card or didn't but you can if they actually wrote down how many turns it was, looked at the cards in gy for effects that would draw cards etc. etc. It would of been fairly easy to prove who was in fact lying but would of taken at least 5-10 mins as long as the game/board state was in tact/knowledge of the turn it was and who went first and second. For future reference purposes. If there is disagreements over those things they will go to what players have written down and be in favor of the person who has more detailed notes.
Sucks but he could of easily just asked if his opponent could prove he drew a extra card or not if he already did those things and most likely he couldn't unless he was a seasoned cheater(knowledge of those things) and then well just get him back later or move on from it.
Welcome to Competitive REL. It is encouraged that you write down EVERYTHING on those score pads they give you. Sucks that's how it worked out, but there are sharks at GPs
Would that really have helped? If the two players disagree on whether a mulligan happened, it's extremely likely that one or the other is cheating. It's trivial for a cheater to write down "I mulliganed", so that's not something a judge should really consider.
The bottom line is that when there's no one watching and the cheater is smart, it's basically impossible for a judge to determine which player is the cheater and which is the honest one.
I would like to point out that the judge did not penalize your friend with cheating.
He received a GPE- Drawing Extra Cards which is a GL. ;
If the OP's story is correct and the judge determined that the friend's opponent was the one telling the truth, shouldn't the friend have also received a penalty for lying to the judge about the mulligan?
This would probably be failure to agree on game-state and unless there is proof either way this is probably a warning. If either player has a warning prior to this at this event it would be upgraded to a game loss. If either player has a history of this type of warning/game loss - this could be upgraded further.
With what has been explained it is impossible to tell.
When the opponent starts "taking forever and counting permanents and GY" with lethal damage coming in, it's time to preemptively call the judge because nothing good will follow.
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Would that really have helped? If the two players disagree on whether a mulligan happened, it's extremely likely that one or the other is cheating. It's trivial for a cheater to write down "I mulliganed", so that's not something a judge should really consider.
The bottom line is that when there's no one watching and the cheater is smart, it's basically impossible for a judge to determine which player is the cheater and which is the honest one.
While it's not the end-all, be-all, if one player has meticulous notes regarding who went first, mulligans taken, etc, and the other just has random chicken scratches that somewhat resemble life totals, it will weigh into the investigation. It doesn't take much to write "M" down next to "20" at the start of a game when somebody takes a mulligan, and a mark that will indicate which player went first. If you force yourself to take good notes and practice proper play even at FNM (no, not sharking, but being strict with yourself on how you play) it will translate positively into competitive / professional events.
If the OP's story is correct and the judge determined that the friend's opponent was the one telling the truth, shouldn't the friend have also received a penalty for lying to the judge about the mulligan?
Not necessarily; since there is a lot going on in a game of Magic, there are many judge calls where neither playing is lying, but the stories don't line up with each other. Maybe the opponent did mulligan in a previous game, but since there's been a lot happening in the match one player forgot which game the mulligan was in.
Even for a one-sided story, this one is missing some details. Like for instance, how was it determined that your friend had an "extra" card? Did he and his opponent cast the exact same number of spells for the duration of the game, with no extra draw effects and no mulligans?
Seems like someone isn't saying something. It could very well be the case that your friend was in the wrong and tried to save face by telling you a weak story.
They counted up all the cards and all that would affect card drawing and he was one ahead. He was a closer friend, with no reason to lie to me. You could tell by how he was dealing with it that he was not lying.
While it's not the end-all, be-all, if one player has meticulous notes regarding who went first, mulligans taken, etc, and the other just has random chicken scratches that somewhat resemble life totals, it will weigh into the investigation. It doesn't take much to write "M" down next to "20" at the start of a game when somebody takes a mulligan, and a mark that will indicate which player went first. If you force yourself to take good notes and practice proper play even at FNM (no, not sharking, but being strict with yourself on how you play) it will translate positively into competitive / professional events.
I agree that detailed notes are useful when there appears to be genuine confusion about the game state.
When you have a clear cheating situation, however, I don't see how they hold any value at all, given that you can't verify their accuracy.
Actually if your friend wanted to appeal he would of had to do so immediately before cards got scooped up. Its a painstaking process to prove who drew a extra card or didn't but you can if they actually wrote down how many turns it was, looked at the cards in gy for effects that would draw cards etc. etc. It would of been fairly easy to prove who was in fact lying but would of taken at least 5-10 mins as long as the game/board state was in tact/knowledge of the turn it was and who went first and second. For future reference purposes. If there is disagreements over those things they will go to what players have written down and be in favor of the person who has more detailed notes.
Sucks but he could of easily just asked if his opponent could prove he drew a extra card or not if he already did those things and most likely he couldn't unless he was a seasoned cheater(knowledge of those things) and then well just get him back later or move on from it.
He actually did appeal before he scooped up the cards, and no he did not know what turn it was at that points. You shouldn't have to write if your opponents mulligan or keep track of what turn it is. If there is no way to proof it either way then you should keep it as it is. This is just promoting cheating.
They counted up all the cards and all that would affect card drawing and he was one ahead. He was a closer friend, with no reason to lie to me. You could tell by how he was dealing with it that he was not lying.
Do you know what your friend was specifically penalized with and are there any more details you could provide?
They counted up all the cards and all that would affect card drawing and he was one ahead. He was a closer friend, with no reason to lie to me. You could tell by how he was dealing with it that he was not lying.
Friends of Alex Bertoncini said the same thing.
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You shouldn't have to write if your opponents mulligan or keep track of what turn it is.
Actually, situations like this are exactly why you should do those things.
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If there is no way to proof it either way then you should keep it as it is. This is just promoting cheating.
You can't even prove that your friend's opponent was cheating, so statements like this and the thread title are libelous. The bottom line is that your friend was up a card and neither player could (or would) account for it. The judge went with what he thought was the best call. I'm sorry that it cost your friend the game, and I believe that a less harsh warning should've been assigned to both players given the information you've provided, but none of that necessarily makes the opponent a cheater.
Actually, situations like this are exactly why you should do those things.
You can't even prove that your friend's opponent was cheating, so statements like this and the thread title are libelous. The bottom line is that your friend was up a card and neither player could (or would) account for it. The judge went with what he thought was the best call. I'm sorry that it cost your friend the game, and I believe that a less harsh warning should've been assigned to both players given the information you've provided, but none of that necessarily makes the opponent a cheater.
I agree all of this except about the penalty. If his friend was indeed up a card, he gets a GPE- Drawing Extra Cards which is a GL.
Whether or not the opponent gets a penalty I would need need more information or have been present myself.
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Actually, situations like this are exactly why you should do those things.
You can't even prove that your friend's opponent was cheating, so statements like this and the thread title are libelous. The bottom line is that your friend was up a card and neither player could (or would) account for it. The judge went with what he thought was the best call. I'm sorry that it cost your friend the game, and I believe that a less harsh warning should've been assigned to both players given the information you've provided, but none of that necessarily makes the opponent a cheater.
Someone had to be cheating. He can not take a mulligan and not take a mulligan at the same time. Either he took a mulligan and cheated or my friend drew an extra card and lied about it. Both situations there is a cheater.
The opinions of anyone in this thread about the judge call (including myself as a judge who wasn't at GP Indy) aren't relevant here. What matters is the opinions of the judge that handled the call and the HJ that handled the appeal. We could discuss this until we're all blue in the face, it won't change anything.
The bottom line here is that at Competitive and Professional REL, players should document literally everything. This doesn't just mean writing down life totals, but also protecting themselves from potential shenanigans by also writing down who went first, who took mulligans, what caused each change in life totals, etc. If you can't prove something you're telling a judge & your opponent has documentation of it, unless the opponent is blatantly cheating, the judge is very likely to rule the documentation correct because there's simply nothing else for them to base a ruling on. If you want to protect yourself from possibly undeserved game losses, having detailed documentation of the gamestate can help the judge reconstruct what's happened & solve the problem if possible.
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Unfortunately, as Ive experienced as a judge for our local shop, there are gigantic holes in the rules that allow for such things, and its really sad when someone does lie about such things but more or less absolutely nothing you can do about it. As some have said, you need to keep meticulous written information about the state of the game. If someone mulligans, write it down, if damage is dealt, make note of what caused it, keep meticulous track of the life totals at all times. If you can explain in detail the gamestate turn by turn and otherwise, AND all of the information adds up correctly, then the judge is much more likely to side with you, over someone who isnt as prepared.
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How does this make any sense? Is the guy friends with the judge or just more well know? I can not imagine that be the case, but I don't understand how they could make that ruling. I'm assuming I can not post his name on here, but I really want to make aware of this cheater. Let me know what you guys think.
Thanks
Without the whole story it's really hard to say. I can just as easily assume your friend lied.
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Seems like someone isn't saying something. It could very well be the case that your friend was in the wrong and tried to save face by telling you a weak story.
Sucks but he could of easily just asked if his opponent could prove he drew a extra card or not if he already did those things and most likely he couldn't unless he was a seasoned cheater(knowledge of those things) and then well just get him back later or move on from it.
Would that really have helped? If the two players disagree on whether a mulligan happened, it's extremely likely that one or the other is cheating. It's trivial for a cheater to write down "I mulliganed", so that's not something a judge should really consider.
The bottom line is that when there's no one watching and the cheater is smart, it's basically impossible for a judge to determine which player is the cheater and which is the honest one.
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He received a GPE- Drawing Extra Cards which is a GL. ;
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If the OP's story is correct and the judge determined that the friend's opponent was the one telling the truth, shouldn't the friend have also received a penalty for lying to the judge about the mulligan?
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With what has been explained it is impossible to tell.
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While it's not the end-all, be-all, if one player has meticulous notes regarding who went first, mulligans taken, etc, and the other just has random chicken scratches that somewhat resemble life totals, it will weigh into the investigation. It doesn't take much to write "M" down next to "20" at the start of a game when somebody takes a mulligan, and a mark that will indicate which player went first. If you force yourself to take good notes and practice proper play even at FNM (no, not sharking, but being strict with yourself on how you play) it will translate positively into competitive / professional events.
Not necessarily; since there is a lot going on in a game of Magic, there are many judge calls where neither playing is lying, but the stories don't line up with each other. Maybe the opponent did mulligan in a previous game, but since there's been a lot happening in the match one player forgot which game the mulligan was in.
They counted up all the cards and all that would affect card drawing and he was one ahead. He was a closer friend, with no reason to lie to me. You could tell by how he was dealing with it that he was not lying.
I agree that detailed notes are useful when there appears to be genuine confusion about the game state.
When you have a clear cheating situation, however, I don't see how they hold any value at all, given that you can't verify their accuracy.
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He actually did appeal before he scooped up the cards, and no he did not know what turn it was at that points. You shouldn't have to write if your opponents mulligan or keep track of what turn it is. If there is no way to proof it either way then you should keep it as it is. This is just promoting cheating.
Do you know what your friend was specifically penalized with and are there any more details you could provide?
Friends of Alex Bertoncini said the same thing.
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That's an assumption. It holds no basis. You were not there. You have only been told one side of the story.
You have not heard the opponents side nor the most important side, the judges.
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Actually, situations like this are exactly why you should do those things.
You can't even prove that your friend's opponent was cheating, so statements like this and the thread title are libelous. The bottom line is that your friend was up a card and neither player could (or would) account for it. The judge went with what he thought was the best call. I'm sorry that it cost your friend the game, and I believe that a less harsh warning should've been assigned to both players given the information you've provided, but none of that necessarily makes the opponent a cheater.
I agree all of this except about the penalty. If his friend was indeed up a card, he gets a GPE- Drawing Extra Cards which is a GL.
Whether or not the opponent gets a penalty I would need need more information or have been present myself.
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Someone had to be cheating. He can not take a mulligan and not take a mulligan at the same time. Either he took a mulligan and cheated or my friend drew an extra card and lied about it. Both situations there is a cheater.
The bottom line here is that at Competitive and Professional REL, players should document literally everything. This doesn't just mean writing down life totals, but also protecting themselves from potential shenanigans by also writing down who went first, who took mulligans, what caused each change in life totals, etc. If you can't prove something you're telling a judge & your opponent has documentation of it, unless the opponent is blatantly cheating, the judge is very likely to rule the documentation correct because there's simply nothing else for them to base a ruling on. If you want to protect yourself from possibly undeserved game losses, having detailed documentation of the gamestate can help the judge reconstruct what's happened & solve the problem if possible.
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