I suspect a return to Theros will be our next set following Throne of Eldraine. I want to share some ideas for what a return to Theros could be about.
Theros has a pronounced enchantment theme. Last time we were there, this was most loudly represented with enchantment creatures, Bestow, and Constellation. In a return trip, the enchantment theme is the most likely thing to return from the original block. I also expect the Heroes, Monsters, and Gods theme to return, and I could see Devotion, Heroic, and Monstrosity all returning as a result.
However, I do want to examine new angles for the return visit, ways to expand upon the themes of the original block.
Sagas - A distinct type of enchantment introduced in Dominaria, Sagas are a perfect fit for Theros and its mythology theme.
Curses - A type of Aura introduced in Innistrad, curses were common in Greek myth and so they would make sense here.
More legendaries - The original Theros did have a high legend count for its time, but not enough that it could have counted as a major set theme. Now that Dominaria has shown how to do a legend theme right, I think it would be cool to get a lot of legends in Return to Theros, including at uncommon. Now all kinds of Greek heroes, villains, and gods can get their due representation, along with legendary events captured in enchantment form.
I would propose a proper Hercules or Heracles-type character for the return visit, that I dub Therocles. Heracles roughly meant "glory of Hera", so Therocles could be interpreted as "glory of Theros". Therocles would be a legendary RGW Human Warrior with the classic Heroic ability of gaining +1/+1 counters, perfect for representing his godlike strength. He could get an associated card known as The Twelve Labors, based on The Twelve Labors of Heracles from Greek myth which saw the demigod ascend to godhood at the time of his death. The Twelve Labors could be an Aura with enchant creature that puts +1/+1 counters on the enchanted creature, and checks whether there are twelve or more +1/+1 counters on the enchanted creature. If there are, you win the game. Therocles could tutor up The Twelve Labors as an ETB effect, putting it onto the battlefield attached to hmself.
I would also suggest a legendary GW Centaur based on Chiron and Ixion flavored as a trainer of heroes. He would have a sort of shared Heroic ability that puts a +1/+1 counter on a creature you control whenever you cast a spell that targets that creature. In addition he grants trample and a Curiosity effect to creatures you control with +1/+1 counters on them.
Finally I would suggest Irides, a legendary WUBRG enchantment creature based on Iris, goddess of rainbows and messenger between gods and mortals. Though Angels have thus far not been seen on Theros, Irides could change that, as the classic depiction of Iris is that of a winged woman, which fits with the description of an Angel in MtG. Otherwise she could be a Nymph, in keeping with Nymphs being enchantment creatures on Theros and servants of the Gods.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
How I see the chances of the original mechanics returning:
-Devotion
Almost certain. One of the signature mechanics of Theros. Flavourful, interesting, popular. Tied to the the gods- one of the most popular and distinctive parts of Theros. Around a solid 4 on MaRo's storm scale. The bigger question to me is not whether devotion will return but whether there will be very much of it.
-Heroic
Good chances. Similar things to be said as with Devotion. Plays nicely with multiple Theros themes, so that helps. Around a 5 on MaRo's storm scale. More replaceable though, I think, than devotion. Especially if you want to play up how the heroes are in a different place, say because of the whole mortals vs the gods thing that developed later in the original block.
-Monstrosity
Some chance. A good mechanic overall, but I think the biggest strike against it is that it's not as unique and distinctly Theros as Devotion or Heroic, so it's a better candidate to be replaced by new mechanics.
-Bestow
Some chance. More problematic than Monstrosity (7 on the storm scale), but also slightly less replaceable I think. Still, likely to be cut.
-Constellation
Decent chances. A good mechanic that fills the very necessary slot of making enchantments matter, something that, given the reception of original Theros, we can expect even more of. Main problem is it's kind of generic and more easily replaced with some exciting new enchantment mechanic than other potential returns.
-Inspired and Tribute
Do I even really need to say?
I agree that Sagas make a lot of sense to see here, especially given MaRo has confirmed they *will* be returning, so that seems reasonably likely. I don't think they'll do both Curses and Sagas, though, and Sagas seem the more likely include.
Seeing somewhat more legends also seems likely, as you say.
As I mentioned in my thoughts on Heroic, I think a likely theme for the Theros return is to touch more upon the mortals vs gods conflict that was ignited in the later part of the original story. They even had a story released a few months after the release of Born of the Gods, at the end of the Theros storyline, where Ajani is rabble rousing about it.
Another possible focus would be the introduction of Theros's equivalent of the Titans as a new enemy. You could even combine with the first idea and have the gods and mortals put aside their differences to face the Titans à la the Wrath of the Titans movie.
Another story point we could see is Elspeth's long hinted and awaited return from the Underworld. Now that Gideon is dead, we don't have to worry about whether the return will focus on him going back to Theros, and therefore there's more room for Elspeth and Ajani as part of that. May well be played in an interesting cost of resurrection way with how the returned work in Theros, similar to Lady Stoneheart from A Song of Ice and Fire, and I could easily see Ajani then trying to save Elspeth from it all.
how can we get monstrosity adapt is essential the fixed version of it?
Monstrosity does have certain advantages. I would argue the flavor is slightly more potent and exciting than adapt. But yes, adapt does get in the way, if for no other reason than it has used up some of the potential design space for monstrosity with its printing. And if we are indeed getting Theros shortly, adapt was also used a bit recently to want to return.
I do wonder if bestow will return, or maybe they’ll try to replace it with Aura’s that are like Ancestral blade or living weapons. Where they can be played out enchanting a creature already on the battlefield, or they if they are cast without a target they instead create a token to enchant.
how can we get monstrosity adapt is essential the fixed version of it?
Adapt isn't a fix version it was made into a +1/+1 counter matter to feel more simic and I think it was even made more narrow for that reason.
We normally only get 3 mechanics now so unless we have more than one set on Theros (which I think we will) hard to tell since so many of the ones from the old block work. I could see Heroic, Devotion and Monstrosity back. Heroic for flavor and they mentioned during Journey into Nyx that the mechanic had more design space in the vein of Sage of Hours. While Devotion might not in due to flavor, it was very popular, powerful and its very tied to the Gods card designs. Monstrosity I think has the best chance since its flavorful and was popular with a fair amount of design space.
Enchantment creatures would also be a shoe in.
Constellation is a maybe since Maro mentioned Constellation limits design space, though it might work as a sub for devotion.
Bestow is maybe since development is scared of it.
No Inspired or Tribute.
I could see Sagas similar to curses on Amonkhet, a few (a cycle or two) but not a full on mechanic. Just something flavorful and would be a way to play up enchantments.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
I did take the printing of Starfield Mystic as a likely indicator that they intended to do an enchantment themed block in the next year. The current standard environment just doesn't seem to have any room to support this card leading me to thinking that it was likely a print for the future year's blocks.
As a side note, if we do see a return to theros its possible that we see a jump in enchantment supporting commander legal cards such as Serra's Sanctum. I believe we saw a jump in these cards when they originally did Theros as back then Sanctum had been a card that could be bought for $30ish.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
More than the Sagas I would like to see a completed cycle of Ordeals for the remaining gods. They play similarly to Sagas in that they get sacrificed after 3 counters and have an effect when they leave. But ultimately I wouldn’t be upset with Sagas.
I would definitely like to see more enchantment creatures in the vein of Kestia (especially in the wedge colors), so a five color legendary nymph would be awesome.
One direction they could go would be legendary lands or even possibly enchantment lands. I think it would be cool to have the poleis get cards representing the blessings or protection of the gods they revere.
This would be more likely in a supplemental product as he’s presumed to be dead, but I would love a WB or WUB legendary archon for Agnomakhos.
The end of the Theros story saw Phenax pulling strings to create another returned city so wonder if that will play into the story. Also wondering if Xenagos will have been replaced in the pantheon
I could see lands that turn into enchantment creatures. Or cards that work like Arixmethes. But they aren't going to do lands that are enchantments by default.
I could see Agnomakhos being the Buy-a-Box promo. Or being included among a number of "lore" legends who may not currently be alive but were in the past.
Most likely we're just getting the monocolor Gods next time, plus maybe the Poleis gods. Maro is doubtful that all fourteen Gods will return, which I think is a pity as the other nine could easily fit in as rares.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Things I really want to see in a Return to Theros:
1. Return of Devotion and Constellation. Possibly Monstrosity, if we can have 3 returning mechanics.
2. High Legend count, including at Uncommon. Dominaria was noted, and I agree. Please include cards for Theros lore characters without them, such as Olantin (a land), Thanasis, Pavios, Callaphe, the Monsoon etc. I'd love a cycle of five Legendary Lands similar to those in Kamigawa block, one for each color. Revisiting Arixmethes would be amazing, either as a land or creature again, but I am not counting on it.
3. Sagas. Including Legendary Sagas. The birth of the gods/pantheon, tragic love story of Pavios and Thanasis, Champion(s) of the Sun, Elspeth's sacrifice, various Greek Myths, etc. So much potential for Sagas. Enough to make the entire set nothing but Sagas, even. And hell, I wouldn't even complain. Gods + Sagas and 5 Basic Lands. Do it.
I could see Devotion, Heroic, and Monstrosity all returning as a result.
I am going to go out on a bit of a limb and say... I think Heroic was the worst mistake in Theros and the cause of almost all of it's issues.
Heroic makes creatures grow, reducing the need for auras.
Heroic increases the value of Auras, forcing design to under power them so they aren't too strong in actual play. (they go in the same decks as Auras and consume significant amounts of the power available to those cards)
Heroic creates a desire to design cards that target multiple creatures, these are typically instant or sorceries not enchantments, but they are positive effects that target your own creatures and thus occupy the same design space as Auras.
R&D knows all this and will look for a heroic mechanic that better fits from a flavor standpoint and doesn't have all these downsides.
I predict bestow will return at a significantly reduced cost and that Heroic will not return.
There are 14 cards with Totem Armor and 35 with Bestow note. Totem armor is the stronger mechanic in all cases other than 'I have no creatures in play and draw this card' (namely if you have a creature with 3 totem armors vs a creature with 3 bestows, all cards otherwise identical, the totem armor version is stronger). Yet totem armor costs significantly less. Look at Drake Umbra and Nimbus Naiad they cost the same but the Totem Armor version gives an additional +1/+1. Same for Mammoth Umbra and Observant Alseid. Cards like Hyena Umbra have no direct analog, but it would cost at least 2W and likely 3W. I believe that without Heroic in the set that Bestow could be stronger, and that the set could include more auras and Bestow creatures (replacing cards like Coordinated Assault, Cutthroat Maneuver, Dauntless Onslaught, Triton Tactics, Hunt the Hunter, Gods Willing, Savage Surge, titan's Strength, or Warriors' Lesson).
Even if Bestow isn't included in Theros 2 the set will be Enchantment focused as that is too strong of an expectation and was NOT lived up to the first time around for them to just ignore the second.
I agree that Sagas make a lot of sense to see here, especially given MaRo has confirmed they *will* be returning, so that seems reasonably likely. I don't think they'll do both Curses and Sagas, though, and Sagas seem the more likely include.
Curses seem likely for Throne, and if Theros 2 follows Throne (and thus is in standard with another curse set) it bends these odds... I could see Curses being in... or both, especially if Bestow doesn't make it.
I think a likely theme for the Theros return is to touch more upon the mortals vs gods conflict that was ignited in the later part of the original story. They even had a story released a few months after the release of Born of the Gods, at the end of the Theros storyline, where Ajani is rabble rousing about it.
The story of Theros 2 would have to center on Elspeth, and the mechanical theme has to be Enchantments. But the story could involve a war between mortals and gods.
Another possible focus would be the introduction of Theros's equivalent of the Titans as a new enemy. You could even combine with the first idea and have the gods and mortals put aside their differences to face the Titans à la the Wrath of the Titans movie.
This could also serve for the shape of the story and a good reason for the gods to send Elspeth back to fight, but mechanically it has to be enchantment matters.
(U/B) is :symbu: or :symub: and the same is true for the other 9 hybrid symbols with their two colors in for the last 2 leters of the code. ((2/B) and co are :sym2b:)
Alternatively {UB} or {2B} in [mana] tags are (U/B) or (2/B) T is :symtap: and T will give T in [mana] tags
I could see Devotion, Heroic, and Monstrosity all returning as a result.
I am going to go out on a bit of a limb and say... I think Heroic was the worst mistake in Theros and the cause of almost all of it's issues.
Heroic makes creatures grow, reducing the need for auras.
Heroic increases the value of Auras, forcing design to under power them so they aren't too strong in actual play. (they go in the same decks as Auras and consume significant amounts of the power available to those cards)
Heroic creates a desire to design cards that target multiple creatures, these are typically instant or sorceries not enchantments, but they are positive effects that target your own creatures and thus occupy the same design space as Auras.
R&D knows all this and will look for a heroic mechanic that better fits from a flavor standpoint and doesn't have all these downsides.
I predict bestow will return at a significantly reduced cost and that Heroic will not return.
There are 14 cards with Totem Armor and 35 with Bestow note. Totem armor is the stronger mechanic in all cases other than 'I have no creatures in play and draw this card' (namely if you have a creature with 3 totem armors vs a creature with 3 bestows, all cards otherwise identical, the totem armor version is stronger). Yet totem armor costs significantly less. Look at Drake Umbra and Nimbus Naiad they cost the same but the Totem Armor version gives an additional +1/+1. Same for Mammoth Umbra and Observant Alseid. Cards like Hyena Umbra have no direct analog, but it would cost at least 2W and likely 3W. I believe that without Heroic in the set that Bestow could be stronger, and that the set could include more auras and Bestow creatures (replacing cards like Coordinated Assault, Cutthroat Maneuver, Dauntless Onslaught, Triton Tactics, Hunt the Hunter, Gods Willing, Savage Surge, titan's Strength, or Warriors' Lesson).
Even if Bestow isn't included in Theros 2 the set will be Enchantment focused as that is too strong of an expectation and was NOT lived up to the first time around for them to just ignore the second.
Secondly, Heroic worked wonderfully with Auras, which helped sell the enchantment theme. Not all Auras exist to make creatures bigger. Aqueous Form and Battle Masterywant to go on creatures that gain +1/+1 counters, and the +1/+1 counters produced by Heroic made it easier to cash in the Ordeals.
Bestow served both to justify enchantment creatures and to synergize with Heroic. And since they're enchantments whether or not they're Auras, they play well with enchantments-matter effects like Constellation.
Yes, creatures that triggered off being targeted by spells did create a demand for multi-target instants and sorceries...which was handled by Strive and which represented well the flavor of the mortals and gods being set against one another. You're complaining here that the designers designed their set around the set's mechanics, which is what they're supposed to do. It's like complaining that Innistrad pushed for more sac outlets because of Morbid. When your set features certain mechanics, you want to build around those mechanics. That's just common sense.
I don't know how you can say "R&D knows this" when Heroic was one of the better-received mechanics of the block overall, certainly a great deal better than Inspired, Tribute, and Strive. Heroic played well and it represented the flavor of heroes well. It was part of an intricate machine, and it served its purpose well.
Is it possible Heroic could be replaced during our next visit? Certainly, but it won't be because it played poorly or had poor flavor or whatever, it'll be because they have a new angle to tackle and need new mechanics for it. The next hero mechanic could care about Auras and Equipment, like Novice Knight or Champion of the Flame. And stealth Heroic could still appear the way stealth Landfall appeared in our first trip to Theros.
On the subject of Auras and Equipment, now that colored artifacts are a regular thing, I can totally see the next trip to Theros featuring a plethora of colored artifacts, maybe even some enchantment artifacts, that play with Devotion. A good number of those artifacts could easily be equipment, and thus could justify a new hero ability that cares if the creature is enchanted or equipped.
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
I could see Devotion, Heroic, and Monstrosity all returning as a result.
I am going to go out on a bit of a limb and say... I think Heroic was the worst mistake in Theros and the cause of almost all of it's issues.
Heroic makes creatures grow, reducing the need for auras.
Heroic increases the value of Auras, forcing design to under power them so they aren't too strong in actual play. (they go in the same decks as Auras and consume significant amounts of the power available to those cards)
Heroic creates a desire to design cards that target multiple creatures, these are typically instant or sorceries not enchantments, but they are positive effects that target your own creatures and thus occupy the same design space as Auras.
R&D knows all this and will look for a heroic mechanic that better fits from a flavor standpoint and doesn't have all these downsides.
I predict bestow will return at a significantly reduced cost and that Heroic will not return.
There are 14 cards with Totem Armor and 35 with Bestow note. Totem armor is the stronger mechanic in all cases other than 'I have no creatures in play and draw this card' (namely if you have a creature with 3 totem armors vs a creature with 3 bestows, all cards otherwise identical, the totem armor version is stronger). Yet totem armor costs significantly less. Look at Drake Umbra and Nimbus Naiad they cost the same but the Totem Armor version gives an additional +1/+1. Same for Mammoth Umbra and Observant Alseid. Cards like Hyena Umbra have no direct analog, but it would cost at least 2W and likely 3W. I believe that without Heroic in the set that Bestow could be stronger, and that the set could include more auras and Bestow creatures (replacing cards like Coordinated Assault, Cutthroat Maneuver, Dauntless Onslaught, Triton Tactics, Hunt the Hunter, Gods Willing, Savage Surge, titan's Strength, or Warriors' Lesson).
Even if Bestow isn't included in Theros 2 the set will be Enchantment focused as that is too strong of an expectation and was NOT lived up to the first time around for them to just ignore the second.
Secondly, Heroic worked wonderfully with Auras, which helped sell the enchantment theme. Not all Auras exist to make creatures bigger. Aqueous Form and Battle Masterywant to go on creatures that gain +1/+1 counters, and the +1/+1 counters produced by Heroic made it easier to cash in the Ordeals.
That was my point, it worked well with auras which forced them to nerf auras.
Bestow served both to justify enchantment creatures and to synergize with Heroic. And since they're enchantments whether or not they're Auras, they play well with enchantments-matter effects like Constellation.
Yes, creatures that triggered off being targeted by spells did create a demand for multi-target instants and sorceries...which was handled by Strive and which represented well the flavor of the mortals and gods being set against one another. You're complaining here that the designers designed their set around the set's mechanics, which is what they're supposed to do. It's like complaining that Innistrad pushed for more sac outlets because of Morbid. When your set features certain mechanics, you want to build around those mechanics. That's just common sense.
Strive took away from the space in the set for enchantments...
I don't know how you can say "R&D knows this" when Heroic was one of the better-received mechanics of the block overall, certainly a great deal better than Inspired, Tribute, and Strive. Heroic played well and it represented the flavor of heroes well. It was part of an intricate machine, and it served its purpose well.
Is it possible Heroic could be replaced during our next visit? Certainly, but it won't be because it played poorly or had poor flavor or whatever, it'll be because they have a new angle to tackle and need new mechanics for it. The next hero mechanic could care about Auras and Equipment, like Novice Knight or Champion of the Flame. And stealth Heroic could still appear the way stealth Landfall appeared in our first trip to Theros.[/spoiler]
R&D know that there is a huge demand for an enchantment 'block' that never happened.
R&D know that Urza Saga was intended to be that block and turned into the broken artifact block instead.
R&D know that there was public perception that Theros was going to be that block (they intended enchantments to be a minor theme not a major one) and it really wasn't.
R&D know that they can have Heroic or Enchantment matters as a primary (because of the various things in my prior post) they can't do both.
Heroic isn't inherently a bad mechanic or a problem (I do think it is bias towards lower power smaller formats and 1v1 play, so Limited or Standard, which is a strike against it but not a deadly one), but letting players think they are going to get the Enchantment Matters block they have been asking for for literally two decades now and then not delivering it... again... is a problem.
I did a poor job of conveying that originally and that's my fault. Heroic was a mistake in that block for reasons that aren't directly Heroic's fault.
On the subject of Auras and Equipment, now that colored artifacts are a regular thing, I can totally see the next trip to Theros featuring a plethora of colored artifacts, maybe even some enchantment artifacts, that play with Devotion. A good number of those artifacts could easily be equipment, and thus could justify a new hero ability that cares if the creature is enchanted or equipped.
I would love to see Threshold-1 attached as a thing.
Theros Dude W
Creature - Human Soldier
Theros dude has Vigilance and Double Strike as long as a permanent is attached to it.
1/1
Theros Dude W
Creature - Human Soldier
As long as Theros dude is enchanted or equipped it has Vigilance and Double Strike.
1/1
I like the attached to it wording, but its fairly awkward to actually use so they may go with the 'enchanted or equipped' wording that better matches current templates and likely is less confusing overall.
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(U/B) is :symbu: or :symub: and the same is true for the other 9 hybrid symbols with their two colors in for the last 2 leters of the code. ((2/B) and co are :sym2b:)
Alternatively {UB} or {2B} in [mana] tags are (U/B) or (2/B) T is :symtap: and T will give T in [mana] tags
It would be good if Monstrosity got some support. Like an artifact that cuts down the cost of Monstrosity and cards that give a bonus effect if you control a monstrous creature.
Totem armor is the stronger mechanic in all cases other than 'I have no creatures in play and draw this card' (namely if you have a creature with 3 totem armors vs a creature with 3 bestows, all cards otherwise identical, the totem armor version is stronger). Yet totem armor costs significantly less.
I agree that totem armor is stronger once you get it on your creature, the inherent risk of Auras is that you get two for onned when you target your creature and they kill it. Bestow creatures will still enter the battlefield in that case hence they are safer to play since you they can't get a 2 for 1 out of that, but other than that yeah Totem Armor is better. But due to that I don't think we see a significant drop in Bestow cost at least not in the lower rarieties.
I thought bestow was a little over costed, but it was the first go 'round for it, this time they know what it is and how it plays so they should be able to better cost it. Really looking forward to devotion and constellation. I think heroic has been superseded by prowess.
Which gods you think make it in? I doubt they'll include all 15. If the story is about Elspeth and the underworld, you have to figure Heliod, Phenax and Erebos, possibly Athreos. The only way they 15 make it in is if they make some rare.
I thought bestow was a little over costed, but it was the first go 'round for it, this time they know what it is and how it plays so they should be able to better cost it. Really looking forward to devotion and constellation. I think heroic has been superseded by prowess.
Which gods you think make it in? I doubt they'll include all 15. If the story is about Elspeth and the underworld, you have to figure Heliod, Phenax and Erebos, possibly Athreos. The only way they 15 make it in is if they make some rare.
looking back at things like landfall, I think the current trend is to make returning mechanics cost MORE than they dd previously, not less. it is all about draft, with a couple playable mythics, don't get your hopes up for Bestow to be any better than last time
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Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
I thought bestow was a little over costed, but it was the first go 'round for it, this time they know what it is and how it plays so they should be able to better cost it. Really looking forward to devotion and constellation. I think heroic has been superseded by prowess.
Which gods you think make it in? I doubt they'll include all 15. If the story is about Elspeth and the underworld, you have to figure Heliod, Phenax and Erebos, possibly Athreos. The only way they 15 make it in is if they make some rare.
I don't know. She doesn't look like a returned or undead in the picture we saw. They usually have darker skin almost dark grayish. So I don't think Phenax will play an important role. Well Heliod and Erebos should get what they deserve. If they add Gods than it will be in form of a cycle. So I think it will be the 5 major Gods (the mono-colored ones). I don't know if we will get gods as rares. It would be the first time.
Edit: Do we know if the pantheon we saw in the last Theros block is complete? I remember that Maro has written something that there is at least one missing one. God of Love or something like that. I would like to see something like Nike but Iroas has taken part of her domain.
I thought bestow was a little over costed, but it was the first go 'round for it, this time they know what it is and how it plays so they should be able to better cost it. Really looking forward to devotion and constellation. I think heroic has been superseded by prowess.
Which gods you think make it in? I doubt they'll include all 15. If the story is about Elspeth and the underworld, you have to figure Heliod, Phenax and Erebos, possibly Athreos. The only way they 15 make it in is if they make some rare.
I don't know. She doesn't look like a returned or undead in the picture we saw. They usually have darker skin almost dark grayish. So I don't think Phenax will play an important role. Well Heliod and Erebos should get what they deserve. If they add Gods than it will be in form of a cycle. So I think it will be the 5 major Gods (the mono-colored ones). I don't know if we will get gods as rares. It would be the first time.
Phenax is the god of the returned in the sense he himself escaped the underworld and left a path for them to follow. He could has a role in this set.
Ravos has been set up to play a role between the commander decks and the hint Dack gave regarding him in War of the Spark.
Edit: Do we know if the pantheon we saw in the last Theros block is complete? I remember that Maro has written something that there is at least one missing one. God of Love or something like that. I would like to see something like Nike but Iroas has taken part of her domain.
In lore the pantheon stabilized with 14 gods, the RG spot missing until Xenagos took that spot. In a story with Krupix he mentions how the gods are shaped by mortal belief and gods had been created and forgotten using a god of love as an example.
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I think the mono-colored God will almost certainly return and since this is a return to theros in a single set the dual colored gods might make an appearance, but will probably be moved down to rare rather than mythic rare and their power level will be reduced in some way.
I think the Gods are too iconic to not be in the set and I think their abilities will echo their original ones, much like the how the Eldrazi titans’ Battle for Zendikar and Eldritch Moon cards had on-cast abilities that were similar to their original ones.
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Theros has a pronounced enchantment theme. Last time we were there, this was most loudly represented with enchantment creatures, Bestow, and Constellation. In a return trip, the enchantment theme is the most likely thing to return from the original block. I also expect the Heroes, Monsters, and Gods theme to return, and I could see Devotion, Heroic, and Monstrosity all returning as a result.
However, I do want to examine new angles for the return visit, ways to expand upon the themes of the original block.
Sagas - A distinct type of enchantment introduced in Dominaria, Sagas are a perfect fit for Theros and its mythology theme.
Curses - A type of Aura introduced in Innistrad, curses were common in Greek myth and so they would make sense here.
More legendaries - The original Theros did have a high legend count for its time, but not enough that it could have counted as a major set theme. Now that Dominaria has shown how to do a legend theme right, I think it would be cool to get a lot of legends in Return to Theros, including at uncommon. Now all kinds of Greek heroes, villains, and gods can get their due representation, along with legendary events captured in enchantment form.
I would propose a proper Hercules or Heracles-type character for the return visit, that I dub Therocles. Heracles roughly meant "glory of Hera", so Therocles could be interpreted as "glory of Theros". Therocles would be a legendary RGW Human Warrior with the classic Heroic ability of gaining +1/+1 counters, perfect for representing his godlike strength. He could get an associated card known as The Twelve Labors, based on The Twelve Labors of Heracles from Greek myth which saw the demigod ascend to godhood at the time of his death. The Twelve Labors could be an Aura with enchant creature that puts +1/+1 counters on the enchanted creature, and checks whether there are twelve or more +1/+1 counters on the enchanted creature. If there are, you win the game. Therocles could tutor up The Twelve Labors as an ETB effect, putting it onto the battlefield attached to hmself.
I would also suggest a legendary GW Centaur based on Chiron and Ixion flavored as a trainer of heroes. He would have a sort of shared Heroic ability that puts a +1/+1 counter on a creature you control whenever you cast a spell that targets that creature. In addition he grants trample and a Curiosity effect to creatures you control with +1/+1 counters on them.
Finally I would suggest Irides, a legendary WUBRG enchantment creature based on Iris, goddess of rainbows and messenger between gods and mortals. Though Angels have thus far not been seen on Theros, Irides could change that, as the classic depiction of Iris is that of a winged woman, which fits with the description of an Angel in MtG. Otherwise she could be a Nymph, in keeping with Nymphs being enchantment creatures on Theros and servants of the Gods.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
-Devotion
Almost certain. One of the signature mechanics of Theros. Flavourful, interesting, popular. Tied to the the gods- one of the most popular and distinctive parts of Theros. Around a solid 4 on MaRo's storm scale. The bigger question to me is not whether devotion will return but whether there will be very much of it.
-Heroic
Good chances. Similar things to be said as with Devotion. Plays nicely with multiple Theros themes, so that helps. Around a 5 on MaRo's storm scale. More replaceable though, I think, than devotion. Especially if you want to play up how the heroes are in a different place, say because of the whole mortals vs the gods thing that developed later in the original block.
-Monstrosity
Some chance. A good mechanic overall, but I think the biggest strike against it is that it's not as unique and distinctly Theros as Devotion or Heroic, so it's a better candidate to be replaced by new mechanics.
-Bestow
Some chance. More problematic than Monstrosity (7 on the storm scale), but also slightly less replaceable I think. Still, likely to be cut.
-Constellation
Decent chances. A good mechanic that fills the very necessary slot of making enchantments matter, something that, given the reception of original Theros, we can expect even more of. Main problem is it's kind of generic and more easily replaced with some exciting new enchantment mechanic than other potential returns.
-Inspired and Tribute
Do I even really need to say?
I agree that Sagas make a lot of sense to see here, especially given MaRo has confirmed they *will* be returning, so that seems reasonably likely. I don't think they'll do both Curses and Sagas, though, and Sagas seem the more likely include.
Seeing somewhat more legends also seems likely, as you say.
As I mentioned in my thoughts on Heroic, I think a likely theme for the Theros return is to touch more upon the mortals vs gods conflict that was ignited in the later part of the original story. They even had a story released a few months after the release of Born of the Gods, at the end of the Theros storyline, where Ajani is rabble rousing about it.
Another possible focus would be the introduction of Theros's equivalent of the Titans as a new enemy. You could even combine with the first idea and have the gods and mortals put aside their differences to face the Titans à la the Wrath of the Titans movie.
Another story point we could see is Elspeth's long hinted and awaited return from the Underworld. Now that Gideon is dead, we don't have to worry about whether the return will focus on him going back to Theros, and therefore there's more room for Elspeth and Ajani as part of that. May well be played in an interesting cost of resurrection way with how the returned work in Theros, similar to Lady Stoneheart from A Song of Ice and Fire, and I could easily see Ajani then trying to save Elspeth from it all.
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Monstrosity does have certain advantages. I would argue the flavor is slightly more potent and exciting than adapt. But yes, adapt does get in the way, if for no other reason than it has used up some of the potential design space for monstrosity with its printing. And if we are indeed getting Theros shortly, adapt was also used a bit recently to want to return.
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I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
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Adapt isn't a fix version it was made into a +1/+1 counter matter to feel more simic and I think it was even made more narrow for that reason.
We normally only get 3 mechanics now so unless we have more than one set on Theros (which I think we will) hard to tell since so many of the ones from the old block work. I could see Heroic, Devotion and Monstrosity back. Heroic for flavor and they mentioned during Journey into Nyx that the mechanic had more design space in the vein of Sage of Hours. While Devotion might not in due to flavor, it was very popular, powerful and its very tied to the Gods card designs. Monstrosity I think has the best chance since its flavorful and was popular with a fair amount of design space.
Enchantment creatures would also be a shoe in.
Constellation is a maybe since Maro mentioned Constellation limits design space, though it might work as a sub for devotion.
Bestow is maybe since development is scared of it.
No Inspired or Tribute.
I could see Sagas similar to curses on Amonkhet, a few (a cycle or two) but not a full on mechanic. Just something flavorful and would be a way to play up enchantments.
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As a side note, if we do see a return to theros its possible that we see a jump in enchantment supporting commander legal cards such as Serra's Sanctum. I believe we saw a jump in these cards when they originally did Theros as back then Sanctum had been a card that could be bought for $30ish.
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I would definitely like to see more enchantment creatures in the vein of Kestia (especially in the wedge colors), so a five color legendary nymph would be awesome.
One direction they could go would be legendary lands or even possibly enchantment lands. I think it would be cool to have the poleis get cards representing the blessings or protection of the gods they revere.
This would be more likely in a supplemental product as he’s presumed to be dead, but I would love a WB or WUB legendary archon for Agnomakhos.
The end of the Theros story saw Phenax pulling strings to create another returned city so wonder if that will play into the story. Also wondering if Xenagos will have been replaced in the pantheon
I could see Agnomakhos being the Buy-a-Box promo. Or being included among a number of "lore" legends who may not currently be alive but were in the past.
Most likely we're just getting the monocolor Gods next time, plus maybe the Poleis gods. Maro is doubtful that all fourteen Gods will return, which I think is a pity as the other nine could easily fit in as rares.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
1. Return of Devotion and Constellation. Possibly Monstrosity, if we can have 3 returning mechanics.
2. High Legend count, including at Uncommon. Dominaria was noted, and I agree. Please include cards for Theros lore characters without them, such as Olantin (a land), Thanasis, Pavios, Callaphe, the Monsoon etc. I'd love a cycle of five Legendary Lands similar to those in Kamigawa block, one for each color. Revisiting Arixmethes would be amazing, either as a land or creature again, but I am not counting on it.
3. Sagas. Including Legendary Sagas. The birth of the gods/pantheon, tragic love story of Pavios and Thanasis, Champion(s) of the Sun, Elspeth's sacrifice, various Greek Myths, etc. So much potential for Sagas. Enough to make the entire set nothing but Sagas, even. And hell, I wouldn't even complain. Gods + Sagas and 5 Basic Lands. Do it.
4. More Greek myth elements.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
I am going to go out on a bit of a limb and say... I think Heroic was the worst mistake in Theros and the cause of almost all of it's issues.
Heroic makes creatures grow, reducing the need for auras.
Heroic increases the value of Auras, forcing design to under power them so they aren't too strong in actual play. (they go in the same decks as Auras and consume significant amounts of the power available to those cards)
Heroic creates a desire to design cards that target multiple creatures, these are typically instant or sorceries not enchantments, but they are positive effects that target your own creatures and thus occupy the same design space as Auras.
R&D knows all this and will look for a heroic mechanic that better fits from a flavor standpoint and doesn't have all these downsides.
I predict bestow will return at a significantly reduced cost and that Heroic will not return.
There are 14 cards with Totem Armor and 35 with Bestow note. Totem armor is the stronger mechanic in all cases other than 'I have no creatures in play and draw this card' (namely if you have a creature with 3 totem armors vs a creature with 3 bestows, all cards otherwise identical, the totem armor version is stronger). Yet totem armor costs significantly less. Look at Drake Umbra and Nimbus Naiad they cost the same but the Totem Armor version gives an additional +1/+1. Same for Mammoth Umbra and Observant Alseid. Cards like Hyena Umbra have no direct analog, but it would cost at least 2W and likely 3W. I believe that without Heroic in the set that Bestow could be stronger, and that the set could include more auras and Bestow creatures (replacing cards like Coordinated Assault, Cutthroat Maneuver, Dauntless Onslaught, Triton Tactics, Hunt the Hunter, Gods Willing, Savage Surge, titan's Strength, or Warriors' Lesson).
Even if Bestow isn't included in Theros 2 the set will be Enchantment focused as that is too strong of an expectation and was NOT lived up to the first time around for them to just ignore the second.
Curses seem likely for Throne, and if Theros 2 follows Throne (and thus is in standard with another curse set) it bends these odds... I could see Curses being in... or both, especially if Bestow doesn't make it.
The story of Theros 2 would have to center on Elspeth, and the mechanical theme has to be Enchantments. But the story could involve a war between mortals and gods.
This could also serve for the shape of the story and a good reason for the gods to send Elspeth back to fight, but mechanically it has to be enchantment matters.
Alternatively {UB} or {2B} in [mana] tags are (U/B) or (2/B)
T is :symtap: and T will give T in [mana] tags
I strongly disagree.
First off, not all Heroic abilities produced +1/+1 counters. That was mainly GW's thing; blue, black, and red leaned towards spell-like effects, as was the case with Artisan of Forms, Agent of the Fates, and Labyrinth Champion. This is because +1/+1 counters were the GW theme, which both Heroic and Monstrosity played with.
Secondly, Heroic worked wonderfully with Auras, which helped sell the enchantment theme. Not all Auras exist to make creatures bigger. Aqueous Form and Battle Mastery want to go on creatures that gain +1/+1 counters, and the +1/+1 counters produced by Heroic made it easier to cash in the Ordeals.
Bestow served both to justify enchantment creatures and to synergize with Heroic. And since they're enchantments whether or not they're Auras, they play well with enchantments-matter effects like Constellation.
Yes, creatures that triggered off being targeted by spells did create a demand for multi-target instants and sorceries...which was handled by Strive and which represented well the flavor of the mortals and gods being set against one another. You're complaining here that the designers designed their set around the set's mechanics, which is what they're supposed to do. It's like complaining that Innistrad pushed for more sac outlets because of Morbid. When your set features certain mechanics, you want to build around those mechanics. That's just common sense.
I don't know how you can say "R&D knows this" when Heroic was one of the better-received mechanics of the block overall, certainly a great deal better than Inspired, Tribute, and Strive. Heroic played well and it represented the flavor of heroes well. It was part of an intricate machine, and it served its purpose well.
Is it possible Heroic could be replaced during our next visit? Certainly, but it won't be because it played poorly or had poor flavor or whatever, it'll be because they have a new angle to tackle and need new mechanics for it. The next hero mechanic could care about Auras and Equipment, like Novice Knight or Champion of the Flame. And stealth Heroic could still appear the way stealth Landfall appeared in our first trip to Theros.
On the subject of Auras and Equipment, now that colored artifacts are a regular thing, I can totally see the next trip to Theros featuring a plethora of colored artifacts, maybe even some enchantment artifacts, that play with Devotion. A good number of those artifacts could easily be equipment, and thus could justify a new hero ability that cares if the creature is enchanted or equipped.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
I think you misunderstand.
I did not intend to imply that they all did, some do and those cause the listed problems
That was my point, it worked well with auras which forced them to nerf auras.
Strive took away from the space in the set for enchantments...
R&D know that there is a huge demand for an enchantment 'block' that never happened.
R&D know that Urza Saga was intended to be that block and turned into the broken artifact block instead.
R&D know that there was public perception that Theros was going to be that block (they intended enchantments to be a minor theme not a major one) and it really wasn't.
R&D know that they can have Heroic or Enchantment matters as a primary (because of the various things in my prior post) they can't do both.
Heroic isn't inherently a bad mechanic or a problem (I do think it is bias towards lower power smaller formats and 1v1 play, so Limited or Standard, which is a strike against it but not a deadly one), but letting players think they are going to get the Enchantment Matters block they have been asking for for literally two decades now and then not delivering it... again... is a problem.
I did a poor job of conveying that originally and that's my fault. Heroic was a mistake in that block for reasons that aren't directly Heroic's fault.
I would love to see Threshold-1 attached as a thing.
Theros Dude W
Creature - Human Soldier
Theros dude has Vigilance and Double Strike as long as a permanent is attached to it.
1/1
Theros Dude W
Creature - Human Soldier
As long as Theros dude is enchanted or equipped it has Vigilance and Double Strike.
1/1
I like the attached to it wording, but its fairly awkward to actually use so they may go with the 'enchanted or equipped' wording that better matches current templates and likely is less confusing overall.
Alternatively {UB} or {2B} in [mana] tags are (U/B) or (2/B)
T is :symtap: and T will give T in [mana] tags
Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx reprint since we know devotion will be back based off all the hybrid and several symbols to turn on the gods in standard
I agree that totem armor is stronger once you get it on your creature, the inherent risk of Auras is that you get two for onned when you target your creature and they kill it. Bestow creatures will still enter the battlefield in that case hence they are safer to play since you they can't get a 2 for 1 out of that, but other than that yeah Totem Armor is better. But due to that I don't think we see a significant drop in Bestow cost at least not in the lower rarieties.
If it makes a comeback at all.
Which gods you think make it in? I doubt they'll include all 15. If the story is about Elspeth and the underworld, you have to figure Heliod, Phenax and Erebos, possibly Athreos. The only way they 15 make it in is if they make some rare.
looking back at things like landfall, I think the current trend is to make returning mechanics cost MORE than they dd previously, not less. it is all about draft, with a couple playable mythics, don't get your hopes up for Bestow to be any better than last time
I don't know. She doesn't look like a returned or undead in the picture we saw. They usually have darker skin almost dark grayish. So I don't think Phenax will play an important role. Well Heliod and Erebos should get what they deserve. If they add Gods than it will be in form of a cycle. So I think it will be the 5 major Gods (the mono-colored ones). I don't know if we will get gods as rares. It would be the first time.
Edit: Do we know if the pantheon we saw in the last Theros block is complete? I remember that Maro has written something that there is at least one missing one. God of Love or something like that. I would like to see something like Nike but Iroas has taken part of her domain.
Phenax is the god of the returned in the sense he himself escaped the underworld and left a path for them to follow. He could has a role in this set.
Ravos has been set up to play a role between the commander decks and the hint Dack gave regarding him in War of the Spark.
In lore the pantheon stabilized with 14 gods, the RG spot missing until Xenagos took that spot. In a story with Krupix he mentions how the gods are shaped by mortal belief and gods had been created and forgotten using a god of love as an example.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
I think the Gods are too iconic to not be in the set and I think their abilities will echo their original ones, much like the how the Eldrazi titans’ Battle for Zendikar and Eldritch Moon cards had on-cast abilities that were similar to their original ones.