The third Ravnica set might be an ideal place to fit them. Think about it - it was said that Ajani recruits dozens of planeswalkers to the cause, so there's absolutely no way to fit them on cards individually. Bolas might (or might not) do something similar. And to add the final touch, Unstable successfully tested the multiple arts on one card, which was even replicated with the guildgates. So, in conclusion, I think the chances are pretty high that we could get nonlegendary "Gatewatch soldier" and "Bolas agent" planeswalkers, each featuring several different minor or unnamed characters as alternative arts. Thoughts?
I think they would still be Legendary, but downshift to Uncommon level (like in Dominaria) with adjusted abilities to suit the theme of the set. I think it's possible since Dominaria went over well with the Legendary matters theme.
BB84Prez may be right; if there are more planeswalkers than usual in the "third Ravnica set" then they'll still be legendary, but uncommon and minor characters with probably two loyalty abilities apiece.
Because of what planeswalkers are and especially because of what it takes to become one, nonlegendary planeswalkers aren't likely in Magic's canon, although I've seen people come up with good explanations for including them in their custom sets (Spark transfer machines, Phyrexians figuring out how to compleat an individual who can then still planeswalk...)
There are a number of reasons why planeswalker uniqueness was absorbed into the legendary supertype, but I would bet good money that an intent to print nonlegendary planeswalkers was not among them. The rarity and overall "specialness" of how planeswalkers are handled story-wise directly contradicts your idea, and nonlegendary status would require a shift in treatment that simply doesn't align with what is happening in these Ravnica sets.
I would go so far as to guess that the entire Kaladesh-Amonkhet story arc renders nonlegendary planeswalkers unnecessary due to Bolas's ability to transport entire armies across planes. The Gatewatch appear to be treated like superheroes, a collection of extraordinary individuals, so I can't see Ajani showing up with a group of indistinguishable randos, either.
Planeswalkers are supposed to be "rare" and very special.
Making them uncommon or even common would completely debunk all of that flavor, they just CANNOT do that to keep planeswalkers as a type credible.
The vast majority of "bad" planeswalkers could and should simply be enchantments that do the effect you would use the planeswalker for.
I do agree with most of what you say and you can argue that before PW cards existed, some Legendary creatures were highly sought after and others not so much. Now that WotC has precedent in down shifting Legendaries (in ONE set) to uncommon I do not think it's far fetched to see ONE set with uncommon PW cards. If I were to design an uncommon PW, I would have it as a loyalty of 2 or 3 max, with one or two abilities as only minus abilities. They would be purposefully designed to not stay on the board the whole game. You cast them, use their ability to help your cause, and then they go. I think it would still be credible, just not highly powered.
I do agree with most of what you say and you can argue that before PW cards existed, some Legendary creatures were highly sought after and others not so much. Now that WotC has precedent in down shifting Legendaries (in ONE set) to uncommon I do not think it's far fetched to see ONE set with uncommon PW cards. If I were to design an uncommon PW, I would have it as a loyalty of 2 or 3 max, with one or two abilities as only minus abilities. They would be purposefully designed to not stay on the board the whole game. You cast them, use their ability to help your cause, and then they go. I think it would still be credible, just not highly powered.
It's not the first time, and it's not a precedent that can be applied as easily to planeswalkers. Kamigawa block also had uncommon legendary creatures for the exact same reason as Dominaria: draft themes. Both Dominaria and Kamigawa had strong legendary-matters themes, and, if those themes were to exist at all in a tangible state in limited, the legendary supertype had to exist at a rarity below rare. Don't expect uncommon legendary creatures to randomly pop up without a similar justification.
The flavor-based arguments against downshifted planeswalkers have been made already, but, from a set design perspective, nonlegendary planeswalkers that appear below mythic rare would only be included if doing so were absolutely necessary to create a desired limited format. The problem is that the massive level of complexity associated with the planeswalker card type itself, before we even get to function, clashes with NWO design that downplays complexity at lower rarities. Legendary creatures, by contrast, aren't that much of a step up from regular creatures compared to, say, the difference in complexity between planeswalkers and enchantments such as Sagas.
Planeswalkers are supposed to be "rare" and very special.
Making them uncommon or even common would completely debunk all of that flavor, they just CANNOT do that to keep planeswalkers as a type credible.
The vast majority of "bad" planeswalkers could and should simply be enhantments that do the effect you would use the planeswalker for.
There is a rarity between uncommon and mythic.
But yeah, other permanents can do that work. (In fact, there's not as much mechanical difference between card types as people would like to believe.) Trading Post and Jaya Ballard, Task Mage exist.
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I think the idea is that planeswalkers are one in a billion, so its unlikely in my opinion.
One in a million have a spark, and one in a million of those ignites said spark, so closer to one in a trillion, but you're right on long scale. Let's just say one in 10^12.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I do agree with most of what you say and you can argue that before PW cards existed, some Legendary creatures were highly sought after and others not so much. Now that WotC has precedent in down shifting Legendaries (in ONE set) to uncommon I do not think it's far fetched to see ONE set with uncommon PW cards. If I were to design an uncommon PW, I would have it as a loyalty of 2 or 3 max, with one or two abilities as only minus abilities. They would be purposefully designed to not stay on the board the whole game. You cast them, use their ability to help your cause, and then they go. I think it would still be credible, just not highly powered.
It's not the first time, and it's not a precedent that can be applied as easily to planeswalkers. Kamigawa block also had uncommon legendary creatures for the exact same reason as Dominaria: draft themes. Both Dominaria and Kamigawa had strong legendary-matters themes, and, if those themes were to exist at all in a tangible state in limited, the legendary supertype had to exist at a rarity below rare. Don't expect uncommon legendary creatures to randomly pop up without a similar justification.
The flavor-based arguments against downshifted planeswalkers have been made already, but, from a set design perspective, nonlegendary planeswalkers that appear below mythic rare would only be included if doing so were absolutely necessary to create a desired limited format. The problem is that the massive level of complexity associated with the planeswalker card type itself, before we even get to function, clashes with NWO design that downplays complexity at lower rarities. Legendary creatures, by contrast, aren't that much of a step up from regular creatures compared to, say, the difference in complexity between planeswalkers and enchantments such as Sagas.
Legends had uncommon legends. The only downshift in rarity was the number of powerful uncommon legends. I think Legends had maybe one playable uncommon legendary creature (sunastian falconer - and by playable I mean playable in the context of the game back then), but the majority of the legendary creatures from that era were just special looking commons (lady of the mountain was essentially craw wurm)
It's the classic "box-checking" problem. Doing things simply because is possible, it doesn't mean it should exist design-wise.
Yep. Things need a mechanical identity. Otherwise, you're not really playing Magic anymore. You could be playing Space: The Convergence, but not Magic.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I remember "Eldrazi on Ravnica" custom set. It was disturbingly close to War of the Spark premise. And yes, it featured lots of nonlegendary planeswalkers from different worlds helping Ravnica folks.
That being said, with legendary (i.e. named) walkers being WotC's cherished hatchlings for years, it's probably futile to expect them in numbers, nonlegendary and on lower rarities.
But oh man, considering the total silence about upcoming blocks, wouldn't it be great to spoil upcoming worlds with planeswalkers from them, Future Sight-style?...
Wouldn't that completely defeat the purpose of planeswalker's spark being a rare occurrence?
I mean, at any given time a plane can manage to have how many? 2 or 3 native planeswalkers of adult age? (I doubt Ajani would recruit kids). With Dominaria and may be Ravnica being the exception due to high population and long lifespan of some walkers.
Wouldn't make much sense in lore to have droves of generic planeswalkers all with the same flavour, appearance and abilities.
PW’s don’t have to have a card to be seen in a set. They could just be seen in art and mentioned in flavor text. Ajani could literally bring six new walkers with him and only have one get an actual card while the others are get explored in other sets down the line.
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Because of what planeswalkers are and especially because of what it takes to become one, nonlegendary planeswalkers aren't likely in Magic's canon, although I've seen people come up with good explanations for including them in their custom sets (Spark transfer machines, Phyrexians figuring out how to compleat an individual who can then still planeswalk...)
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
I would go so far as to guess that the entire Kaladesh-Amonkhet story arc renders nonlegendary planeswalkers unnecessary due to Bolas's ability to transport entire armies across planes. The Gatewatch appear to be treated like superheroes, a collection of extraordinary individuals, so I can't see Ajani showing up with a group of indistinguishable randos, either.
Making them uncommon or even common would completely debunk all of that flavor, they just CANNOT do that to keep planeswalkers as a type credible.
The vast majority of "bad" planeswalkers could and should simply be enchantments that do the effect you would use the planeswalker for.
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I do agree with most of what you say and you can argue that before PW cards existed, some Legendary creatures were highly sought after and others not so much. Now that WotC has precedent in down shifting Legendaries (in ONE set) to uncommon I do not think it's far fetched to see ONE set with uncommon PW cards. If I were to design an uncommon PW, I would have it as a loyalty of 2 or 3 max, with one or two abilities as only minus abilities. They would be purposefully designed to not stay on the board the whole game. You cast them, use their ability to help your cause, and then they go. I think it would still be credible, just not highly powered.
It's not the first time, and it's not a precedent that can be applied as easily to planeswalkers. Kamigawa block also had uncommon legendary creatures for the exact same reason as Dominaria: draft themes. Both Dominaria and Kamigawa had strong legendary-matters themes, and, if those themes were to exist at all in a tangible state in limited, the legendary supertype had to exist at a rarity below rare. Don't expect uncommon legendary creatures to randomly pop up without a similar justification.
The flavor-based arguments against downshifted planeswalkers have been made already, but, from a set design perspective, nonlegendary planeswalkers that appear below mythic rare would only be included if doing so were absolutely necessary to create a desired limited format. The problem is that the massive level of complexity associated with the planeswalker card type itself, before we even get to function, clashes with NWO design that downplays complexity at lower rarities. Legendary creatures, by contrast, aren't that much of a step up from regular creatures compared to, say, the difference in complexity between planeswalkers and enchantments such as Sagas.
There is a rarity between uncommon and mythic.
But yeah, other permanents can do that work. (In fact, there's not as much mechanical difference between card types as people would like to believe.) Trading Post and Jaya Ballard, Task Mage exist.
On phasing:
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One in a million have a spark, and one in a million of those ignites said spark, so closer to one in a trillion, but you're right on long scale. Let's just say one in 10^12.
On phasing:
Yeah, but a grand planeswalker showdown like in the third Ravnica set is basically the only setting where it could make sense.
Not even that setting makes sense for a mechanic like this, not when all of the planeswalkers expected to show up are names characters.
Will they all be named, though? It was said that Ajani recruited dozens, that would be even bigger mess that the dwarves in the Hobbit...
Legends had uncommon legends. The only downshift in rarity was the number of powerful uncommon legends. I think Legends had maybe one playable uncommon legendary creature (sunastian falconer - and by playable I mean playable in the context of the game back then), but the majority of the legendary creatures from that era were just special looking commons (lady of the mountain was essentially craw wurm)
Yep. Things need a mechanical identity. Otherwise, you're not really playing Magic anymore. You could be playing Space: The Convergence, but not Magic.
On phasing:
That being said, with legendary (i.e. named) walkers being WotC's cherished hatchlings for years, it's probably futile to expect them in numbers, nonlegendary and on lower rarities.
But oh man, considering the total silence about upcoming blocks, wouldn't it be great to spoil upcoming worlds with planeswalkers from them, Future Sight-style?...
I mean, at any given time a plane can manage to have how many? 2 or 3 native planeswalkers of adult age? (I doubt Ajani would recruit kids). With Dominaria and may be Ravnica being the exception due to high population and long lifespan of some walkers.
Wouldn't make much sense in lore to have droves of generic planeswalkers all with the same flavour, appearance and abilities.
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