Knowing that the 3rd installment of the Guilds of Ravnica "block" will not be focused on the Guilds, and instead on the finale of the Gatewatch / Bolas story arc, I wonder if this would be a good time to recreate the Nephilim cycle.
I think there is a good chance. Bolas could summon them to reign supreme on Ravnica and defeat the Gatewatch. Also, people have been asking for them to be reimagined as legendary creatures for awhile now.
Isn't the gatewatch already defeated though? I'd be all for it as long Jace bites it. They should have a fan voted outcome like the Mirrdan/Phyrexians in the Scars block, with the themed packs and the like.
I imagine it would be very easy to include them if they really wanted to.
They could be summoned by Bolas (as you said), some other planeswalker or just rise up amidst the ensuing chaos of the culminating conflict. I think with the guilds and planeswalker cooperating, the third set is pretty likely to be a "5-color-gold" set, focusing on multicolor in general instead of the 2-color guild pairs specifically (kind of like Alara Reborn, just without the "everything is gold" gimmick). 4-color cards would fit right in.
If they end up not being included, I think it'll be that way because of space and theme constraints, both story- and setdesign-wise.
I think that they eat up rare sots, but if the story needs them then they would fit them in. Possibly just as reprints but they could also make them as another version (I'm not exactly sure on the Nephalim's story)
I don't think it would be likely since they mentioned that 4 color cards are hard to make and if they where going to try, I except it to happen in a side set and not a set that is standard legal.
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Isn't the gatewatch already defeated though? I'd be all for it as long Jace bites it. They should have a fan voted outcome like the Mirrdan/Phyrexians in the Scars block, with the themed packs and the like.
The outcome of New Phyrexia winning was already decides when they where designing the block which was two years before we even knew we were going back to Mirrodin. Fans had no effect on the story.
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I think that they eat up rare sots, but if the story needs them then they would fit them in. Possibly just as reprints but they could also make them as another version (I'm not exactly sure on the Nephalim's story)
The original ones are dead, aren't they? Also, considering the demand for them to be legandary, and, if I remember correctly, Maro admitting that not making them legendary was a mistake, I would say that a reprint is out of question. We are getting new ones if they show up.
Isn't the gatewatch already defeated though? I'd be all for it as long Jace bites it. They should have a fan voted outcome like the Mirrdan/Phyrexians in the Scars block, with the themed packs and the like.
Bless your heart. (Mirrodin Pure never existed.)
Anyway, the Gatewatch was defeated, and they've lost Liliana and Nissa quit, but they have gained Teferi and Karn, right? And Ajani will be with them this time. Not to mention Jaya and the, what do we call them anyway? Story Circle? Sailor Senshi?) And Visara is a confirmed double agent; Ral (and possibly Domri?) could defect once they wise up. And I'm sure Vivien will show up, and we know which side she'll be on. Finally, there's Ugin and Sarkhan.
Besides the Nephilim, another possible subtheme is colorless cards because Ugin.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
The outcome of New Phyrexia winning was already decides when they where designing the block which was two years before we even knew we were going back to Mirrodin. Fans had no effect on the story.
I mean they can give that illusion to players to make them care more about the story and what not.
The original ones are dead, aren't they? Also, considering the demand for them to be legandary, and, if I remember correctly, Maro admitting that not making them legendary was a mistake, I would say that a reprint is out of question. We are getting new ones if they show up.
Yeah I literally know almost nothing when it comes to lore, so I missed the mark on that one. I remember the weird faction packs with the Mirran symbol though, kinda like the Guild pre-release kits from the new set.
I think there is a good chance. Bolas could summon them to reign supreme on Ravnica and defeat the Gatewatch. Also, people have been asking for them to be reimagined as legendary creatures for awhile now.
First off, several are already dead, if not all of them. Secondly, Bolas already defeated the Gatewatch on Amonkhet. After all this build up, not to mention the implications that we won't be coming back to Ravnica for a good, long while, they'd better damn well not force feed us another Gatewatch loss. I'm getting really tired of Bolas coming out on top and I'm getting really tired of Gatewatch hate. I want the Gatewatch to kick Bolas' ass good and hard this time. Yeah, it probably means I'll have to put up with more Gatewatch and Jace hate rants afterward, but quite frankly, I don't freaking care as long as I get a satisfying ending. Amonkhet was a letdown for me, I want to walk away from what may be our last trip to Ravnica feeling victorious with the Gatewatch.
And why does Jace have to bite it? What about Jace makes him such a badly written character that he must die?
Gods, the constant Jace and Gatewatch hate I've been seeing on this forum has become a major peeve of mine.
You know, I didn't care much about any of these characters until I started reading the Gatewatch stories. Before, they were just more of the same, tired old "morally ambigious comic book plot" characters where everyone has an agenda and there are no clear good guys. Now that we've seen some real character development, I'm actually invested in these characters and their stories.
So I vehemently oppose all the Jace and Gatewatch hate. Quite frankly there's nothing wrong with the new generation characters that wasn't wrong with the old characters. In fact, I think old Magic story was downright crappy compared to modern Magic, because back then planeswalkers were godlike beings and thus far less compelling as they didn't have any of the needs or vulnerabilities of a well-rounded mortal. It says something that the Weatherlight saga, which centered more on non-planeswalker characters, is the story most discussed by longtime fans, most likely because the lives and adventures of Gerrard, Hanna, Sisay, and the rest of the crew were far more compelling than the chess games played by the oh-so-mighty and godlike planeswalkers. And that saga had a disappointing ending with all but four of the major heroes dead, including the leads. The story didn't end on a note of triumph but a note of bleak bittersweetness.
And after all the hardship and disappointment I've had to put up with in my life, I'm ****ing tired of bleak, bittersweet stories where good guys die and bad guys get away. I'm sick of stories confusing "morally ambiguous" with "compelling and captivating". I'm sick of people whining about Standard power levels versus Modern or Legacy. I'm sick of comments that a card should "cost 1 less" so it compares to undercosted trash of the past. I'm sick of comments including the words "jank", "trash", or "hot garbage" as pejoratives for cards that weren't even designed to be competitive to begin with. And I'm sick of all the incessant hate towards the Gatewatch, Jace, and everything else current about the game.
It's the hateful and cutthroat players that I despise most about MtG. Their negativity and soulless focus on efficiency ruins what is supposed to be a game about fantasy, about telling a story through gameplay. Half the time I wonder why I even bother sticking around this forum, if only so that I'm not letting a bunch of killjoys push me away from what small parts of the game I still get to enjoy. I haven't played Magic in a long time due to financial concerns about going to FNMs and prereleases all the time. Getting to talk about the cards, and sometimes, design cards and build decklists, on this forum is 80% of my Magic involvement at this point. And half that time, my fun is tainted by the excess negativity I've seen plaguing this website.
Oh, sure, I could just ignore all the users who say things that irritate me, but I've already ignored so many users and I'd prefer not to limit the number of users that I see to a handful because, believe it or not, I do care about the opinions of others. I'm trying not to block out opinions just because they disagree with my own, and I'm not just looking for a bunch of yesmen who automatically agree with and compliment everything Wizards does, because even I dislike some of the things they've done. But **** **** it, if everyone else around here gets to harp on and on and on about Jace, the Gatewatch, and everything else they hate about the game, then once in a rare while I'm going to rant about how much I dislike the haters, because I can only read so much negative, repetitive, and annoying drivel before I get ****ing sick of it.
It's one thing if the character is meant to be hated, like Baral, but Jace is a freaking protagonist, and like it or not, the majority of players like him because he's an intellectual who prefers to solve his problems without punching a hole in them, in a series where players so often like to complain that the game's all about creatures smashing into each other. If one must complain about some aspect of the game, then I ask that you try to suggest an actual improvement rather than just "remove this thing I don't like from the game" because that's frankly no different than me ignoring your comments just to block out the noise. It's the easy thing to do, but is it necessarily the right one?
Sigh...anyway, no, I don't think the Nephilim are coming back. The only thing most players actually found notable about them was that they're four colors, and they were random and pulled focus away from a story that should have focused on the guilds themselves.
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
I think there is a good chance. Bolas could summon them to reign supreme on Ravnica and defeat the Gatewatch. Also, people have been asking for them to be reimagined as legendary creatures for awhile now.
First off, several are already dead, if not all of them. Secondly, Bolas already defeated the Gatewatch on Amonkhet. After all this build up, not to mention the implications that we won't be coming back to Ravnica for a good, long while, they'd better damn well not force feed us another Gatewatch loss. I'm getting really tired of Bolas coming out on top and I'm getting really tired of Gatewatch hate. I want the Gatewatch to kick Bolas' ass good and hard this time. Yeah, it probably means I'll have to put up with more Gatewatch and Jace hate rants afterward, but quite frankly, I don't freaking care as long as I get a satisfying ending. Amonkhet was a letdown for me, I want to walk away from what may be our last trip to Ravnica feeling victorious with the Gatewatch.
And why does Jace have to bite it? What about Jace makes him such a badly written character that he must die?
Gods, the constant Jace and Gatewatch hate I've been seeing on this forum has become a major peeve of mine.
You know, I didn't care much about any of these characters until I started reading the Gatewatch stories. Before, they were just more of the same, tired old "morally ambigious comic book plot" characters where everyone has an agenda and there are no clear good guys. Now that we've seen some real character development, I'm actually invested in these characters and their stories.
So I vehemently oppose all the Jace and Gatewatch hate. Quite frankly there's nothing wrong with the new generation characters that wasn't wrong with the old characters. In fact, I think old Magic story was downright crappy compared to modern Magic, because back then planeswalkers were godlike beings and thus far less compelling as they didn't have any of the needs or vulnerabilities of a well-rounded mortal. It says something that the Weatherlight saga, which centered more on non-planeswalker characters, is the story most discussed by longtime fans, most likely because the lives and adventures of Gerrard, Hanna, Sisay, and the rest of the crew were far more compelling than the chess games played by the oh-so-mighty and godlike planeswalkers. And that saga had a disappointing ending with all but four of the major heroes dead, including the leads. The story didn't end on a note of triumph but a note of bleak bittersweetness.
And after all the hardship and disappointment I've had to put up with in my life, I'm ****ing tired of bleak, bittersweet stories where good guys die and bad guys get away. I'm sick of stories confusing "morally ambiguous" with "compelling and captivating". I'm sick of people whining about Standard power levels versus Modern or Legacy. I'm sick of comments that a card should "cost 1 less" so it compares to undercosted trash of the past. I'm sick of comments including the words "jank", "trash", or "hot garbage" as pejoratives for cards that weren't even designed to be competitive to begin with. And I'm sick of all the incessant hate towards the Gatewatch, Jace, and everything else current about the game.
It's the hateful and cutthroat players that I despise most about MtG. Their negativity and soulless focus on efficiency ruins what is supposed to be a game about fantasy, about telling a story through gameplay. Half the time I wonder why I even bother sticking around this forum, if only so that I'm not letting a bunch of killjoys push me away from what small parts of the game I still get to enjoy. I haven't played Magic in a long time due to financial concerns about going to FNMs and prereleases all the time. Getting to talk about the cards, and sometimes, design cards and build decklists, on this forum is 80% of my Magic involvement at this point. And half that time, my fun is tainted by the excess negativity I've seen plaguing this website.
Oh, sure, I could just ignore all the users who say things that irritate me, but I've already ignored so many users and I'd prefer not to limit the number of users that I see to a handful because, believe it or not, I do care about the opinions of others. I'm trying not to block out opinions just because they disagree with my own, and I'm not just looking for a bunch of yesmen who automatically agree with and compliment everything Wizards does, because even I dislike some of the things they've done. But **** **** it, if everyone else around here gets to harp on and on and on about Jace, the Gatewatch, and everything else they hate about the game, then once in a rare while I'm going to rant about how much I dislike the haters, because I can only read so much negative, repetitive, and annoying drivel before I get ****ing sick of it.
It's one thing if the character is meant to be hated, like Baral, but Jace is a freaking protagonist, and like it or not, the majority of players like him because he's an intellectual who prefers to solve his problems without punching a hole in them, in a series where players so often like to complain that the game's all about creatures smashing into each other. If one must complain about some aspect of the game, then I ask that you try to suggest an actual improvement rather than just "remove this thing I don't like from the game" because that's frankly no different than me ignoring your comments just to block out the noise. It's the easy thing to do, but is it necessarily the right one?
Sigh...anyway, no, I don't think the Nephilim are coming back. The only thing most players actually found notable about them was that they're four colors, and they were random and pulled focus away from a story that should have focused on the guilds themselves.
Except the "defeat" turned out to be mostly beneficial, and Jace in particular actually got rid of his character-defining flaws - his amnesia and physical weakness - pushing him further towards the Mary Sue territory. The closest thing to defeat so far came when Lili got bound to Bolas, that's some real consequence and could turn out interesting. But to me, the Amonkhet finale feels as if Boromir sprang back to life, said he learned an important lesson and carried on...
And Jace shouldn't die. Lavinia should nail his balls to a chair so he finally stops neglecting his duties. If the system survives on Ravnica, that is...
There's a point to be made with regard to that post that the 3rd set is not a 'Ravnica' set even though it takes place on Ravnica, because it doesn't focus on the guilds or on other characteristic aspects of the plane.
But I don't buy it. I want legendary nephilim, but I don't think it's going to happen.
And honestly after how cool Atraxa and Ydris were, I don't think I can blame them for not wanting to limit themselves to a single creature type. Being able to use separate creature types allows them to justify the four colors of the cards partially through lore and not just through mechanics.
To be fair, part of the nephilin was trash (like 3 of them) even for casual (during original rav release)(beside with commander they become super popular).
I think the sad thing is that WotC developers and designers are a bit out of touch with the "community" and they don't really know what we "want" as of now. That is why no return to kamigawa even if more than 70% of the "community" says they are ok with it or they would love it...
They took data, but take the information as absolute like:
"players don't liked kamigawa" = we will never return to kamigawa.
"players liked Dominaria" = nostalgia .
"players liked Kamigawa in suplemental products" = thats the only place to make Kamigawa.
Conclusion - Never return to kamigawa in a standard set
how we players would like them to think:
"players don't liked kamigawa" = mostly because of power level and themes and design.
"players liked Dominaria" = Dominaria and Kamigawa had some theme in common but had different execution.
"players like kamigawa in suplemental products" = maybe players liked the setting and we could re work it.
Conclusion - We could return to kamigawa and get things right this time, players like the setting.
We just have to wait for some people go to retirement...
Thanks, Maro. I forgot that the thing I thought I liked was actually something I don't like. I'm so lucky to have you set me straight.
And forget about nuance. If the execution of a good idea was bad a decade ago obviously the good idea was a bad idea and is irredeemable. It can't be that Maro and cohorts caused the bad idea to suffer through poor execution. Clearly what they had to work with was bad.
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You're being rather insulting to Wizards by oversimplifying their perspective. They know damn well they screwed up on Kamigawa on multiple fronts:
The majority of players didn't like the creative treatment (too many obscure parts of Japanese mythology, not enough of what most people actually like about Japanese mythology)
The development (coming off the heels of Mirrodin block, they overcompensated by making Kamigawa's cards much, much weaker on average, to the detriment of the block and to Standard)
The mechanics just didn't have the fun factor of either Mirrodin or Ravnica
Wizards knows these things, and Maro has cited all three of these major points multiple times. Kamigawa was a failure in every regard, and like it or not, that makes dedicating a full set to returning there a very unappealing proposition, both for financial and marketing reasons.
And frankly, what's to return to? I'm not satisfied with Kamigawa's handling of Japanese culture, myself. The Samurai and Ninja are about the only parts they got right, and the more popular of the two was foolishly relegated to just the second set. I dislike the Orochi because they wasted what should have been the name for awesome eight-headed Hydras on...four-armed snake people? The fact that an actual multi-headed Hydra-esque creature exists in Kamigawa's world only makes it more egregious.
I'll take a new Japan-themed world full of the kinds of creatures most people actually recognize, like Tanuki, shapeshifting Kitsune, actual Kappa, and Tengu. I'll take a new Japanese world with a lot more Ninja, and a more exciting Samurai mechanic than Bushido. And I'll take a Japanese world that plays a bit more into modern Japanese tropes, like transforming Sentai heroes, martial artists, monstrous kaiju, Japanese horror, and Vehicles and other artifact creatures inspired by mecha (though I suppose Anime world could be separate from more traditional Japanese fare). That's the fun stuff, what I want to see, not whatever the hell these things are supposed to be.
Yeah, I'm happy we got Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow, but that's because she's a Ninja, not because she came from Kamigawa.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
That talk about resonance is important. There aren't even a lot of cards referencing Japanese tropes most people are familiar with, such as Bancho Sarayashiki. They did hit the obligatory warrior achieving transcendence upon death and moon rabbit, though, which people are familiar with.
And yeah, a set based on anime and tokusatsu as a whole would be a mistake, largely because there are so many genres that you can't just group them together. (Even if they do have some similarities, like henshin hero, mecha, and magical girl anime are all basically types of superhero shows. Probably could toss in what I call "ki blast" anime.)
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Normally I'd talk about anime tropes that easily translate to Magic, such as Monstrous Kaiju and Transforming superheroes, but we're getting off topic.
No, I don't think the Nephilim will be returning in the third set. They were out of place, not well received, and they've been supplanted by far superior four color cards.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
It doesn't take a genius or(/and) veteran card designer to realize how to fix it.
Kamigawa get flunged [X] centuries into the future, and while it could have some old callbacks it will be effectively separate in the lore. That it will be more tropey and focus on more recognizable areas. Along with having that one card serving as that obscure reference to mythology that is not easy to recognize for the average viewer (Example: Prowling Serpopard)
While mechanically they will:
Avoid all of the parasitic mechanics
Any new keywords will likely involve +1/+1 counters
Make sure to reintroduce ninjutsu and maybe bushido
Follow the Dominaria method for legendary cards for drafting
As for Nephilim, its just going to fall into the bin of "too tough to design". Which is true to an extent, but also demonstrates they don't want to go through the effort again of designing more 4-color cards. Also because the job already seems accomplished for them with the creation of the five 4-color legendary creatures for Commander such as Atraxa, Praetors' Voice.
It doesn't take a genius or(/and) veteran card designer to realize how to fix it.
Kamigawa get flunged [X] centuries into the future, and while it could have some old callbacks it will be effectively separate in the lore. That it will be more tropey and focus on more recognizable areas. Along with having that one card serving as that obscure reference to mythology that is not easy to recognize for the average viewer (Example: Prowling Serpopard)
While mechanically they will:
Avoid all of the parasitic mechanics
Any new keywords will likely involve +1/+1 counters
Make sure to reintroduce ninjutsu and maybe bushido
Follow the Dominaria method for legendary cards for drafting
If you're going to change that much, then is it still Kamigawa? What exactly are we returning to then? Samurai and Ninja? You can make a new plane for them. I'd rather they start fresh with a new world that gets it right.
I would happily welcome more uncommon legends in the future though. I liked how Dominaria used legends for the ten draft archetype uncommons:
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
It doesn't take a genius or(/and) veteran card designer to realize how to fix it.
Kamigawa get flunged [X] centuries into the future, and while it could have some old callbacks it will be effectively separate in the lore. That it will be more tropey and focus on more recognizable areas. Along with having that one card serving as that obscure reference to mythology that is not easy to recognize for the average viewer (Example: Prowling Serpopard)
While mechanically they will:
Avoid all of the parasitic mechanics
Any new keywords will likely involve +1/+1 counters
Make sure to reintroduce ninjutsu and maybe bushido
Follow the Dominaria method for legendary cards for drafting
If you're going to change that much, then is it still Kamigawa? What exactly are we returning to then? Samurai and Ninja? You can make a new plane for them. I'd rather they start fresh with a new world that gets it right.
I would happily welcome more uncommon legends in the future though. I liked how Dominaria used legends for the ten draft archetype uncommons:
It is a fact that Kamigawa happened centures ago. And changes happens. Lore wise kamigawa could go to anywhere there were alot of modern culture in them. One aspect that they did not explore (just visualy on the cards) was Kanji magic, and this should be a part of a new set (at least a master of kanji magic, like Tochi used to be)(and metion it on the cards and flavor text). Samurais, and Ninjas would probably be in the set. And the diferential, what changed from the first visit would be the Kamis helping the mortals, maybe even empowering them, or fusing with them somehow, instead of killing them...
A new set could have:
Samurais as main heroes and warriors/soldier, making the distinction of trained samurais and the ones that lack the discipline (samurai warrior)
One thing that could and should change is the politics, in old Kamigawa, Konda united almost all in his banner, being the daimyo, the only oposition was habitants of Sokenzan, some Orochi (snake people), and some people in the Takenuma. In new kamigawa more Daimyos should exist and fight with themselves or use of diplomacy to establish frontiers. Maybe most of them could have a Spirit empowering them.
Ninjas being killers and agents of some of the Daimyos.
Orochis included as the normal people of Kamigawa, not isolated in colonies, but living in other teritories ( 4 legendary snakes, GW maybe a samurai, GU another wizard studing on new minamo, GB a snake ninja, and a GR snake studant of the school of shamanism founded by Hidetsugu the All-Consuming.)
kitsunes and Minamo's mages being kind of a elite of knowledgemnt, both being well respected by almost all.
Nezumis having a territory of their own. And being more respected by others.
Urami, Uramon(not aged, and alive), the Sisters of Flesh and Spirit, and Hidetsugu the All-Consuming. All comming back or being shown by the first time.
I was just thinking today that MaRo once said not making the Nephilim legendary was a major regret. The next Ravnica set to come on in January would be the perfect opportunity for there to be an emergence of legendary Nephilim. Isn't there chatter about keywords that intersect between guilds? That can be done in such a way to essentially combine two guild colors into the Nephilim, as mythics, w/ really strong synergies w/ 2 or more guild keywords.
This (sort of) begs the questions:
What reason(s) does R&D have to not bring legendary Nephilim into the fold? Sure, we can think of a ton of reasons why we want them, but the trickier thought process is guessing what will keep them down, keep them from being a nice thought to tangible cards and part of the Ravnica story & lore.
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I think there is a good chance. Bolas could summon them to reign supreme on Ravnica and defeat the Gatewatch. Also, people have been asking for them to be reimagined as legendary creatures for awhile now.
What do you think?
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A Community Set
Commander: Allies & Adversaries
(W/U)(B/R)GForm of Progenitus, Shape of a Scrubland
BRGJund Tokens with Prossh, the Magic Dragon Foil
URGAnimar, the RUG CleanerFoil
RRRFeldon of the Third Path 2.0 Foil
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UR(U/R)Mizzix, Y Control and X Burn Spells
(W/U)(B/R)GHarold Ramos - The 35 Foot Long Twinkie (In +1/+1 counters)
UB(U/B)Dragonlord Silumgar
They could be summoned by Bolas (as you said), some other planeswalker or just rise up amidst the ensuing chaos of the culminating conflict. I think with the guilds and planeswalker cooperating, the third set is pretty likely to be a "5-color-gold" set, focusing on multicolor in general instead of the 2-color guild pairs specifically (kind of like Alara Reborn, just without the "everything is gold" gimmick). 4-color cards would fit right in.
If they end up not being included, I think it'll be that way because of space and theme constraints, both story- and setdesign-wise.
(W/U)(B/R)GForm of Progenitus, Shape of a Scrubland
BRGJund Tokens with Prossh, the Magic Dragon Foil
URGAnimar, the RUG CleanerFoil
RRRFeldon of the Third Path 2.0 Foil
BG(B/G)Not Another Meren DeckFoil
UR(U/R)Mizzix, Y Control and X Burn Spells
(W/U)(B/R)GHarold Ramos - The 35 Foot Long Twinkie (In +1/+1 counters)
UB(U/B)Dragonlord Silumgar
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
The outcome of New Phyrexia winning was already decides when they where designing the block which was two years before we even knew we were going back to Mirrodin. Fans had no effect on the story.
BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
The original ones are dead, aren't they? Also, considering the demand for them to be legandary, and, if I remember correctly, Maro admitting that not making them legendary was a mistake, I would say that a reprint is out of question. We are getting new ones if they show up.
Bless your heart. (Mirrodin Pure never existed.)
Anyway, the Gatewatch was defeated, and they've lost Liliana and Nissa quit, but they have gained Teferi and Karn, right? And Ajani will be with them this time. Not to mention Jaya and the, what do we call them anyway? Story Circle? Sailor Senshi?) And Visara is a confirmed double agent; Ral (and possibly Domri?) could defect once they wise up. And I'm sure Vivien will show up, and we know which side she'll be on. Finally, there's Ugin and Sarkhan.
Besides the Nephilim, another possible subtheme is colorless cards because Ugin.
On phasing:
I mean they can give that illusion to players to make them care more about the story and what not.
Yeah I literally know almost nothing when it comes to lore, so I missed the mark on that one. I remember the weird faction packs with the Mirran symbol though, kinda like the Guild pre-release kits from the new set.
(W/U)(B/R)GForm of Progenitus, Shape of a Scrubland
BRGJund Tokens with Prossh, the Magic Dragon Foil
URGAnimar, the RUG CleanerFoil
RRRFeldon of the Third Path 2.0 Foil
BG(B/G)Not Another Meren DeckFoil
UR(U/R)Mizzix, Y Control and X Burn Spells
(W/U)(B/R)GHarold Ramos - The 35 Foot Long Twinkie (In +1/+1 counters)
UB(U/B)Dragonlord Silumgar
23-1-9-20-9-14-7 | 6-15-18 | 13-20-7 | 20-15 | 2-5-3-15-13-5 | 7-15-15-4 | 1-7-1-9-14
First off, several are already dead, if not all of them. Secondly, Bolas already defeated the Gatewatch on Amonkhet. After all this build up, not to mention the implications that we won't be coming back to Ravnica for a good, long while, they'd better damn well not force feed us another Gatewatch loss. I'm getting really tired of Bolas coming out on top and I'm getting really tired of Gatewatch hate. I want the Gatewatch to kick Bolas' ass good and hard this time. Yeah, it probably means I'll have to put up with more Gatewatch and Jace hate rants afterward, but quite frankly, I don't freaking care as long as I get a satisfying ending. Amonkhet was a letdown for me, I want to walk away from what may be our last trip to Ravnica feeling victorious with the Gatewatch.
And why does Jace have to bite it? What about Jace makes him such a badly written character that he must die?
You know, I didn't care much about any of these characters until I started reading the Gatewatch stories. Before, they were just more of the same, tired old "morally ambigious comic book plot" characters where everyone has an agenda and there are no clear good guys. Now that we've seen some real character development, I'm actually invested in these characters and their stories.
So I vehemently oppose all the Jace and Gatewatch hate. Quite frankly there's nothing wrong with the new generation characters that wasn't wrong with the old characters. In fact, I think old Magic story was downright crappy compared to modern Magic, because back then planeswalkers were godlike beings and thus far less compelling as they didn't have any of the needs or vulnerabilities of a well-rounded mortal. It says something that the Weatherlight saga, which centered more on non-planeswalker characters, is the story most discussed by longtime fans, most likely because the lives and adventures of Gerrard, Hanna, Sisay, and the rest of the crew were far more compelling than the chess games played by the oh-so-mighty and godlike planeswalkers. And that saga had a disappointing ending with all but four of the major heroes dead, including the leads. The story didn't end on a note of triumph but a note of bleak bittersweetness.
And after all the hardship and disappointment I've had to put up with in my life, I'm ****ing tired of bleak, bittersweet stories where good guys die and bad guys get away. I'm sick of stories confusing "morally ambiguous" with "compelling and captivating". I'm sick of people whining about Standard power levels versus Modern or Legacy. I'm sick of comments that a card should "cost 1 less" so it compares to undercosted trash of the past. I'm sick of comments including the words "jank", "trash", or "hot garbage" as pejoratives for cards that weren't even designed to be competitive to begin with. And I'm sick of all the incessant hate towards the Gatewatch, Jace, and everything else current about the game.
It's the hateful and cutthroat players that I despise most about MtG. Their negativity and soulless focus on efficiency ruins what is supposed to be a game about fantasy, about telling a story through gameplay. Half the time I wonder why I even bother sticking around this forum, if only so that I'm not letting a bunch of killjoys push me away from what small parts of the game I still get to enjoy. I haven't played Magic in a long time due to financial concerns about going to FNMs and prereleases all the time. Getting to talk about the cards, and sometimes, design cards and build decklists, on this forum is 80% of my Magic involvement at this point. And half that time, my fun is tainted by the excess negativity I've seen plaguing this website.
Oh, sure, I could just ignore all the users who say things that irritate me, but I've already ignored so many users and I'd prefer not to limit the number of users that I see to a handful because, believe it or not, I do care about the opinions of others. I'm trying not to block out opinions just because they disagree with my own, and I'm not just looking for a bunch of yesmen who automatically agree with and compliment everything Wizards does, because even I dislike some of the things they've done. But **** **** it, if everyone else around here gets to harp on and on and on about Jace, the Gatewatch, and everything else they hate about the game, then once in a rare while I'm going to rant about how much I dislike the haters, because I can only read so much negative, repetitive, and annoying drivel before I get ****ing sick of it.
It's one thing if the character is meant to be hated, like Baral, but Jace is a freaking protagonist, and like it or not, the majority of players like him because he's an intellectual who prefers to solve his problems without punching a hole in them, in a series where players so often like to complain that the game's all about creatures smashing into each other. If one must complain about some aspect of the game, then I ask that you try to suggest an actual improvement rather than just "remove this thing I don't like from the game" because that's frankly no different than me ignoring your comments just to block out the noise. It's the easy thing to do, but is it necessarily the right one?
Sigh...anyway, no, I don't think the Nephilim are coming back. The only thing most players actually found notable about them was that they're four colors, and they were random and pulled focus away from a story that should have focused on the guilds themselves.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Except the "defeat" turned out to be mostly beneficial, and Jace in particular actually got rid of his character-defining flaws - his amnesia and physical weakness - pushing him further towards the Mary Sue territory. The closest thing to defeat so far came when Lili got bound to Bolas, that's some real consequence and could turn out interesting. But to me, the Amonkhet finale feels as if Boromir sprang back to life, said he learned an important lesson and carried on...
And Jace shouldn't die. Lavinia should nail his balls to a chair so he finally stops neglecting his duties. If the system survives on Ravnica, that is...
But I don't buy it. I want legendary nephilim, but I don't think it's going to happen.
And honestly after how cool Atraxa and Ydris were, I don't think I can blame them for not wanting to limit themselves to a single creature type. Being able to use separate creature types allows them to justify the four colors of the cards partially through lore and not just through mechanics.
- Rabid Wombat
To be fair, part of the nephilin was trash (like 3 of them) even for casual (during original rav release)(beside with commander they become super popular).
I think the sad thing is that WotC developers and designers are a bit out of touch with the "community" and they don't really know what we "want" as of now. That is why no return to kamigawa even if more than 70% of the "community" says they are ok with it or they would love it...
They took data, but take the information as absolute like:
"players don't liked kamigawa" = we will never return to kamigawa.
"players liked Dominaria" = nostalgia .
"players liked Kamigawa in suplemental products" = thats the only place to make Kamigawa.
Conclusion - Never return to kamigawa in a standard set
how we players would like them to think:
"players don't liked kamigawa" = mostly because of power level and themes and design.
"players liked Dominaria" = Dominaria and Kamigawa had some theme in common but had different execution.
"players like kamigawa in suplemental products" = maybe players liked the setting and we could re work it.
Conclusion - We could return to kamigawa and get things right this time, players like the setting.
We just have to wait for some people go to retirement...
Thanks, Maro. I forgot that the thing I thought I liked was actually something I don't like. I'm so lucky to have you set me straight.
And forget about nuance. If the execution of a good idea was bad a decade ago obviously the good idea was a bad idea and is irredeemable. It can't be that Maro and cohorts caused the bad idea to suffer through poor execution. Clearly what they had to work with was bad.
Wizards knows these things, and Maro has cited all three of these major points multiple times. Kamigawa was a failure in every regard, and like it or not, that makes dedicating a full set to returning there a very unappealing proposition, both for financial and marketing reasons.
And frankly, what's to return to? I'm not satisfied with Kamigawa's handling of Japanese culture, myself. The Samurai and Ninja are about the only parts they got right, and the more popular of the two was foolishly relegated to just the second set. I dislike the Orochi because they wasted what should have been the name for awesome eight-headed Hydras on...four-armed snake people? The fact that an actual multi-headed Hydra-esque creature exists in Kamigawa's world only makes it more egregious.
I'll take a new Japan-themed world full of the kinds of creatures most people actually recognize, like Tanuki, shapeshifting Kitsune, actual Kappa, and Tengu. I'll take a new Japanese world with a lot more Ninja, and a more exciting Samurai mechanic than Bushido. And I'll take a Japanese world that plays a bit more into modern Japanese tropes, like transforming Sentai heroes, martial artists, monstrous kaiju, Japanese horror, and Vehicles and other artifact creatures inspired by mecha (though I suppose Anime world could be separate from more traditional Japanese fare). That's the fun stuff, what I want to see, not whatever the hell these things are supposed to be.
Yeah, I'm happy we got Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow, but that's because she's a Ninja, not because she came from Kamigawa.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
And yeah, a set based on anime and tokusatsu as a whole would be a mistake, largely because there are so many genres that you can't just group them together. (Even if they do have some similarities, like henshin hero, mecha, and magical girl anime are all basically types of superhero shows. Probably could toss in what I call "ki blast" anime.)
On phasing:
No, I don't think the Nephilim will be returning in the third set. They were out of place, not well received, and they've been supplanted by far superior four color cards.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Kamigawa get flunged [X] centuries into the future, and while it could have some old callbacks it will be effectively separate in the lore. That it will be more tropey and focus on more recognizable areas. Along with having that one card serving as that obscure reference to mythology that is not easy to recognize for the average viewer (Example: Prowling Serpopard)
While mechanically they will:
Avoid all of the parasitic mechanics
Any new keywords will likely involve +1/+1 counters
Make sure to reintroduce ninjutsu and maybe bushido
Follow the Dominaria method for legendary cards for drafting
As for Nephilim, its just going to fall into the bin of "too tough to design". Which is true to an extent, but also demonstrates they don't want to go through the effort again of designing more 4-color cards. Also because the job already seems accomplished for them with the creation of the five 4-color legendary creatures for Commander such as Atraxa, Praetors' Voice.
If you're going to change that much, then is it still Kamigawa? What exactly are we returning to then? Samurai and Ninja? You can make a new plane for them. I'd rather they start fresh with a new world that gets it right.
I would happily welcome more uncommon legends in the future though. I liked how Dominaria used legends for the ten draft archetype uncommons:
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
It is a fact that Kamigawa happened centures ago. And changes happens. Lore wise kamigawa could go to anywhere there were alot of modern culture in them. One aspect that they did not explore (just visualy on the cards) was Kanji magic, and this should be a part of a new set (at least a master of kanji magic, like Tochi used to be)(and metion it on the cards and flavor text). Samurais, and Ninjas would probably be in the set. And the diferential, what changed from the first visit would be the Kamis helping the mortals, maybe even empowering them, or fusing with them somehow, instead of killing them...
A new set could have:
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
This (sort of) begs the questions:
What reason(s) does R&D have to not bring legendary Nephilim into the fold? Sure, we can think of a ton of reasons why we want them, but the trickier thought process is guessing what will keep them down, keep them from being a nice thought to tangible cards and part of the Ravnica story & lore.