So Dimir and Surveil seems to be domination this time around on Ravnica and something I have been thinking about is, why keep Scry around when Surveil is so much better? Putting stuff in the graveyard rather than the bottom of your library seems to be good for a lot of decks and there's a lot of way to get stuff back from your graveyard so it's not like you're gonna kill yourself.
Do you agree or would you rather have scry staying?
It seems very unlikely. Surveil is definitely stronger than scry, which means they would have to be stingier with where they use it, which would actually make it worse at its primary job of smoothing mana for limited play.
Also, MaRo has indicated that they wouldn't want the Vancouver Mulligan using Scry if Scry wasn't evergreen, and Surveil on that Mulligan would be incredibly degenerate.
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Surveil's neat for the graveyard interactions with Golgari and Izzet, but I prefer Scry. It has a better name and not every set needs Surveil.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
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The reliably higher average power of Surveil is actually a strike against it for anything like evergreen use - it can't be used for the same design purposes as Scry is without playing merry hell with the power level of sets. Scry provides smoothing and is very frequently used as a sort of trinket text, and it can show up that frequently because it's a good effect that makes games move more elegantly, but it's ultimately a pretty weak mechanic that won't disrupt the game by being common.
I was doing some card searching and stumbled on the surveil mechanic in earlier sets. Taigam's Scheming and Contingency Plan. Surveil 5 for 1U doesn't seem so bad even though it's sorcery speed. I wouldn't be surprised if a reprint of one of these comes out in this set.
galacticpain asked: If it's well received, do you think surveil is a general enough keyword that it could at least become deciduous?
I don’t think surveil will become deciduous with scry evergreen.
That's interesting.
I do get that you would always have to have a graveyard support if you would have surveil in the set where scry can run on it's own
That's not an issue, in a set without graveyard interaction, it's virtually the same as putting something at the bottom of your library. The problem, I think, is that they are too close. But note that Maro didn't discount the possibility of scry losing its evergreen status, so we still might end up with both being deciduous and getting one or the other in each set.
Scry is weaker, yes, but surveil's strength is actually a strike against it. Plus, it's weird enough to give red access to scry, red and white should really not have access to anything like surveil.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
That probably explains why there are zero cards in GRN that have Scry. Or why we don't have Prowess (grumpy cat). That's not to say either won't be in RNA but it does seem to make sense.
Evergreen? It will only be used again should the set's environment calls for it theme-wise.
It DOES make me wonder how this set will tie into RNA though...
EDIT: As for preference...Personally I like Scry as Surveil requires interaction with the graveyard to be even more fully effective. All in all, I'd say Scry.
Surveil is not even flavorful: Why are you do surveillance on your self and not your opponent?
It probably would have been better flavor if you could choose which player's library to look at, but Fateseal is considered too unfun to bring back, and this would be strictly better.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Prowess will probably be phased out as an evergreen mechanic.
Hexproof and Prowess are both on the cutting block, but Hexproof is a needed tool for R&D but Prowess is not.
I haven't seen any evidence of hexproof going away. Sure, it was listed as a mechanic to remove by candidates for the great designer search, but it's used more than double strike. They're just careful how they use the two because they are pretty powerful. Now, yeah, prowress is on the chopping block, but hasn't been used since Amonkhet block and is on one card in Kaladesh block. I actually haven't even heard anyone but heavy tournament players complain about hexproof and it's a favorite of a lot of people I know.
Prowess will probably be phased out as an evergreen mechanic.
Hexproof and Prowess are both on the cutting block, but Hexproof is a needed tool for R&D but Prowess is not.
I haven't seen any evidence of hexproof going away. Sure, it was listed as a mechanic to remove by candidates for the great designer search, but it's used more than double strike. They're just careful how they use the two because they are pretty powerful. Now, yeah, prowress is on the chopping block, but hasn't been used since Amonkhet block and is on one card in Kaladesh block. I actually haven't even heard anyone but heavy tournament players complain about hexproof and it's a favorite of a lot of people I know.
I think they are moving to more situational Hexproof like they experimented with in Dominaria (Hexproof from white/black on the new Knights) and blanket Hexproof will start becoming rarer in a few more sets as they absorb the feedback from Dominaria and adjust future designs.
I would rather they bring in Facepalm Fateseal to complement Scry than replace it with Surveil.
That said, I doubt Surveil will replace Scry as it's graveyard-specific and would only be revisited if a set's setting/mechanics called for it, if at all.
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I would rather they bring in Facepalm Fateseal to complement Scry than replace it with Surveil.
That said, I doubt Surveil will replace Scry as it's graveyard-specific and would only be revisited if a set's setting/mechanics called for it, if at all.
'buster
Fateseal has been tested and proven to be incredibly unfun, according to WotC
Fateseal has been tested and proven to be incredibly unfun, according to WotC
I think the popularity of Lantern Mill in Modern should also demonstrate something of the unfun-ness of Fateseal.
Personally, I don't necessarily think the name is a strike against it, given that most people probably don't even know the word 'scry' outside of Magic anyway; however, the graveyard synergy is pretty problematic.
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"It is better for all the world if, instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes... Three generations of imbeciles are enough."
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
Fateseal has been tested and proven to be incredibly unfun, according to WotC
I think the popularity of Lantern Mill in Modern should also demonstrate something of the unfun-ness of Fateseal.
Personally, I don't necessarily think the name is a strike against it, given that most people probably don't even know the word 'scry' outside of Magic anyway; however, the graveyard synergy is pretty problematic.
It's not problematic when you think about it, without any graveyard synergy it is just scry. Barring some fringe cases, the card is just as dead in your graveyard as it is on the bottom of your library. The problem is that many people don't think much and dumping something into the yard would feel worse for them...
Fateseal has been tested and proven to be incredibly unfun, according to WotC
I think the popularity of Lantern Mill in Modern should also demonstrate something of the unfun-ness of Fateseal.
Personally, I don't necessarily think the name is a strike against it, given that most people probably don't even know the word 'scry' outside of Magic anyway; however, the graveyard synergy is pretty problematic.
It's not problematic when you think about it, without any graveyard synergy it is just scry. Barring some fringe cases, the card is just as dead in your graveyard as it is on the bottom of your library. The problem is that many people don't think much and dumping something into the yard would feel worse for them...
Think of it this way. Every once in a while they make a graveyard set, or a set with a graveyard component. Having this as an evergreen mechanic severely warps that environment in that new mechanics need to be limited or depowered. Scry as a game component is much less intrusive to new set mechanics, one of the reasons it works so well.
I think the popularity of Lantern Mill in Modern should also demonstrate something of the unfun-ness of Fateseal.
Personally, I don't necessarily think the name is a strike against it, given that most people probably don't even know the word 'scry' outside of Magic anyway; however, the graveyard synergy is pretty problematic.
It's not problematic when you think about it, without any graveyard synergy it is just scry. Barring some fringe cases, the card is just as dead in your graveyard as it is on the bottom of your library. The problem is that many people don't think much and dumping something into the yard would feel worse for them...
Think of it this way. Every once in a while they make a graveyard set, or a set with a graveyard component. Having this as an evergreen mechanic severely warps that environment in that new mechanics need to be limited or depowered. Scry as a game component is much less intrusive to new set mechanics, one of the reasons it works so well.
Not to mention, most sets have significant graveyard interaction of some kind because it's a significant part of the game in general. Surveil could enable graveyard shenanigans in a set you don't really want them in if you're not careful.
And the graveyard element makes Surveil more colour limited, as it makes less sense in and who can't usually get cards into the graveyard like that.
So Dimir and Surveil seems to be domination this time around on Ravnica and something I have been thinking about is, why keep Scry around when Surveil is so much better? Putting stuff in the graveyard rather than the bottom of your library seems to be good for a lot of decks and there's a lot of way to get stuff back from your graveyard so it's not like you're gonna kill yourself.
Do you agree or would you rather have scry staying?
Also, MaRo has indicated that they wouldn't want the Vancouver Mulligan using Scry if Scry wasn't evergreen, and Surveil on that Mulligan would be incredibly degenerate.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
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That's interesting.
I do get that you would always have to have a graveyard support if you would have surveil in the set where scry can run on it's own
That's not an issue, in a set without graveyard interaction, it's virtually the same as putting something at the bottom of your library. The problem, I think, is that they are too close. But note that Maro didn't discount the possibility of scry losing its evergreen status, so we still might end up with both being deciduous and getting one or the other in each set.
On phasing:
Basically how +1/+1 sets are much more often used then -1/-1 sets and never in the same set.
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Evergreen? It will only be used again should the set's environment calls for it theme-wise.
It DOES make me wonder how this set will tie into RNA though...
EDIT: As for preference...Personally I like Scry as Surveil requires interaction with the graveyard to be even more fully effective. All in all, I'd say Scry.
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It probably would have been better flavor if you could choose which player's library to look at, but Fateseal is considered too unfun to bring back, and this would be strictly better.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Hexproof and Prowess are both on the cutting block, but Hexproof is a needed tool for R&D but Prowess is not.
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Put it in when it feels right in a set
I think they are moving to more situational Hexproof like they experimented with in Dominaria (Hexproof from white/black on the new Knights) and blanket Hexproof will start becoming rarer in a few more sets as they absorb the feedback from Dominaria and adjust future designs.
FacepalmFateseal to complement Scry than replace it with Surveil.That said, I doubt Surveil will replace Scry as it's graveyard-specific and would only be revisited if a set's setting/mechanics called for it, if at all.
'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
Fateseal has been tested and proven to be incredibly unfun, according to WotC
I think the popularity of Lantern Mill in Modern should also demonstrate something of the unfun-ness of Fateseal.
Personally, I don't necessarily think the name is a strike against it, given that most people probably don't even know the word 'scry' outside of Magic anyway; however, the graveyard synergy is pretty problematic.
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
It's not problematic when you think about it, without any graveyard synergy it is just scry. Barring some fringe cases, the card is just as dead in your graveyard as it is on the bottom of your library. The problem is that many people don't think much and dumping something into the yard would feel worse for them...
Think of it this way. Every once in a while they make a graveyard set, or a set with a graveyard component. Having this as an evergreen mechanic severely warps that environment in that new mechanics need to be limited or depowered. Scry as a game component is much less intrusive to new set mechanics, one of the reasons it works so well.
Not to mention, most sets have significant graveyard interaction of some kind because it's a significant part of the game in general. Surveil could enable graveyard shenanigans in a set you don't really want them in if you're not careful.
And the graveyard element makes Surveil more colour limited, as it makes less sense in and who can't usually get cards into the graveyard like that.
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