Super annoyed at the (apparent) drop of Prowess. It figures that one of the only good 'in character' things to put on UR creatures, would be 'problematic'.
I realize there are subtle rules issues but something like Boost (This has +1/+1 as long as you've played a non-creature spell this turn) seems like it has a much better chance of surviving as evergreen. That way you don't have to worry about multiple instances of the bonus or deal with triggers, both of which they are said to be soured on. But they often dig their heals in over minor rules tweaks followed by coming up with some crazy off-the-wall BS that seems "out there" just for the sake of being "out there"
Prowess losing evergreen status doesn’t surprise me in the least. For a collectible card game that prides itself on its high fantasy sensibilities, prowess made little to no sense with that in mind. Some dork here once picked a fight with me siding with WoTC because they knew what they were doing. Well, apparently they don’t as prowess bore out as a problematic evergreen ability in the long run.
Just slap prowess on a Sliver, which I’m sure they would have done had Dominaria been green lighted to keep its Slivers and I’m good with Prowess being dropped.
Prowess losing evergreen status doesn’t surprise me in the least. For a collectible card game that prides itself on its high fantasy sensibilities, prowess made little to no sense with that in mind.
Huh? Are we comparing a mechanical rule to 'high fantasy' tropes or something?
Prowess losing evergreen status doesn’t surprise me in the least. For a collectible card game that prides itself on its high fantasy sensibilities, prowess made little to no sense with that in mind.
Huh? Are we comparing a mechanical rule to 'high fantasy' tropes or something?
It’s not mutually exclusive that the best evergreen static or triggered abilities that creatures have in this game have a very strong basis in describing what that creature or permanent is within a fantasy setting.
I think it's pretty well established within Magic that "summoning" spells are very different from "arcane" magic like conjuring lightning or enchanting things.
This fits the classic wizard archetype quite well as they are thought of far more as being spellslingers and enchanters than summoners.
Not relaly arguing for or against prowess being evergreen, just vouching for the high fantasy flavor of prowess.
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"Pop in, find a dragon, roast a dragon."
-Chandra Nalaar
I think it's pretty well established within Magic that "summoning" spells are very different from "arcane" magic like conjuring lightning or enchanting things.
This fits the classic wizard archetype quite well as they are thought of far more as being spellslingers and enchanters than summoners.
Not relaly arguing for or against prowess being evergreen, just vouching for the high fantasy flavor of prowess.
Show me examples in classical world mythology where distinctions like this care that a character/creature becomes excitable with nonsummoning magic, than I’ll soften my stance that prowess never made sense to be an evergreen ability in a game called Magic the Gathering, that you know draws from world mythology.
Prowess losing evergreen status doesn’t surprise me in the least. For a collectible card game that prides itself on its high fantasy sensibilities, prowess made little to no sense with that in mind. Some dork here once picked a fight with me siding with WoTC because they knew what they were doing. Well, apparently they don’t as prowess bore out as a problematic evergreen ability in the long run.
Why hello there. It's me again. Don't think I didn't notice what you did there.
Just because something didn't work out doesn't mean it was necessarily a bad idea to try. Haven't you heard anything about omelettes and cracking eggs Discovery requires experimentation.
Or for that matter, the fact that nobody is perfect. So even if it was a bad idea to try it, so what? It's easy to make things look bad when you focus on the mistakes.
And let's not forget, prowess isn't even out yet.
So I stand by my statement- WotC knows what they are doing. On balance, things work out well. Certainly, there are problems, and we are right to criticise them for it. But let's not pretend that WotC is just a bunch of amateurs (or just soulless corporates) and any old guy could manage things half as well.
They probably took out Prowess for GRN because it would conflict with the spellslinging concept Izzet has; same way Scry was omitted because it would interfere/overlap with Surveil.
At least that's how I see it now.
'buster
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HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset. Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
They probably took out Prowess for GRN because it would conflict with the spellslinging concept Izzet has; same way Scry was omitted because it would interfere/overlap with Surveil.
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
They probably took out Prowess for GRN because it would conflict with the spellslinging concept Izzet has; same way Scry was omitted because it would interfere/overlap with Surveil.
It’s a weird creature mechanic that is dependent on spells. And as Dominaria and Ravnica shows, eats up design space of type matter themes.
It has also very limited design space. The “pump” does not scale well on the creature stats. This is unlike First strike which works differently on small and large creatures.
Prowess is also problematic on blue creatures. Blue creatures are not agressive and blue spells are mostly reactive. So Prowess works on certain sets where they can be enabled but not evergreen.
Perhaps a good mechanic for blue red is an evasion mechanic I call “outsize” (fine, the name sucks, but hear me out)
Outsize (This creature cannot be blocked by creatured with lesser power)
This is a green mechanic but this works better red/blue because red has +X/+0, blue has -X/-0, and both have p/t switching.
Edit: Mechanically works
But flavor wise it is hard to justify.
The problem with “outsize” is that it is an evasion ability. They wanted a combat relevant ability mostly for blue, then for red, but whiffed when prowess was shown to be problematic to design.
If you want something with combat that red and blue both care about, have something like Battalion but combine it with card draw. "As long as this creature and X other creatures attacked this turn, draw a card the beginning of your end step." Or does that seem very easy to abuse?
How bummed would you be if prowess was downgraded to deciduous, or completely abandoned?
I can’t believe prowess made more appearances than banding made on creatures, despite developments’s claims prowess is too problematic to just staple onto creatures.
When Slivers make their return in the foreseeable future (the old style art depicted Slivers with Shandalara Sliver game mechanics are what’s said to return someday with a Storm scale of 2), give us a prowess Sliver for completion purposes, please.
I call that mechanic Overpower. If I'd put it anywhere, it'd be RG. But, RG already has Trample. I don't like that Izzet is stuck being the "instants and sorceries" guild. It's not like there's a dedicated enchantments guild (though if there was, it'd probably be Azorius). And the reliance on spells means there are hardly any monocolor Izzet creatures. I'd just as soon Izzet be the "artifacts and energy" guild, now that colored artifacts are becoming a thing.
Oh, I just realized you necroposted. And I replied to it. Sorry about that, mods.
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
I don't see why they keyworded Prowess in the first place. Like unblockable, there are too many variations of the ability to justify keywording only one. I think it should be dropped altogether.
They keyworded it specifically for Tarkir, where this specific variation was a fitting theme for Jeskai. Keeping it as an evergreen keyword was more of an afterthought (though from our outside perspective and due to overlapping design cycles this "afterthought" has been well-integrated and quickly realized). It made sense there - and if you don't look too hard at it then you might make that mistake of thinking: We have so many variations and prowess kinda covrs all of them, so why not make it evergreen?
The issue is that in practice you often would prefer variations that e. g. not boost toughness or scale differently or are really specialized towards one or two of the many noncreature card types. And themes that previously would ebb and flow (blue-red caring about instants and sorceries in one set and caring about artifacts in another, maybe about casting multiple spells in general in a third set etc.) would now be always present and blur the lines between different themes.
It's just that prowess has two or three more little problems as well (being a A+B mechanic, no matter how generous; issues with play design balance since any prowess card can become a finisher etc.) and it adds up.
I think the lessons learnt here can inform some new attempts, so the experiment was not all a waste.
You try things. Sometimes they even work.
That leaves UR and UB still without evergreen creature keywords, but what else is new.
Well, blue-black has flash now. And I'm quite happy about the solution to rearrange evergreen keywords in this case.
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
Yeah, when trying to think of a UB keyword I kept running into Flash as an ideal ambush mechanic. So, the simple solution was to make Flash secondary black. It may not be as cool as First Strike or Trample, but dang if it doesn't work well with Flying and Deathtouch. Flash doesn't work well with Menace unfortunately, but the same can be said of Trample and Reach.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Distraction (Whenever this creature becomes blocked, you may reassign its blockers to another attacking creature.)
"This creature distracts target blocking creature. (That creature blocks this creature instead of the creature it was blocking.)"
"This creature distracts target blocking creature. (That creature blocks this creature this turn if able.)"
The general idea is that UR can do for blocking what spells like Swerve do for spell targets. Since green is also a major forced blocking color, it could be tertiary at distracting.
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Distraction (Whenever this creature becomes blocked, you may reassign its blockers to another attacking creature.)
"This creature distracts target blocking creature. (That creature blocks this creature instead of the creature it was blocking.)"
"This creature distracts target blocking creature. (That creature blocks this creature this turn if able.)"
The general idea is that UR can do for blocking what spells like Swerve do for spell targets. Since green is also a major forced blocking color, it could be tertiary at distracting.
I can't say for sure, but this seems like it would be either or both difficult to make work in the rules and complicated to play.
I do like the idea of something with choices like this though. Seems appropriate for and something WotC has been experimenting with more over time (e.g. Escalate, Riot).
Distraction (Whenever this creature becomes blocked, you may reassign its blockers to another attacking creature.)
"This creature distracts target blocking creature. (That creature blocks this creature instead of the creature it was blocking.)"
"This creature distracts target blocking creature. (That creature blocks this creature this turn if able.)"
The general idea is that UR can do for blocking what spells like Swerve do for spell targets. Since green is also a major forced blocking color, it could be tertiary at distracting.
That sounds an awful lot like how Sorrow's Path was trying to be. Only I like this version better.
'buster
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'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset. Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
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I realize there are subtle rules issues but something like Boost (This has +1/+1 as long as you've played a non-creature spell this turn) seems like it has a much better chance of surviving as evergreen. That way you don't have to worry about multiple instances of the bonus or deal with triggers, both of which they are said to be soured on. But they often dig their heals in over minor rules tweaks followed by coming up with some crazy off-the-wall BS that seems "out there" just for the sake of being "out there"
Huh? Are we comparing a mechanical rule to 'high fantasy' tropes or something?
Spirits
It’s not mutually exclusive that the best evergreen static or triggered abilities that creatures have in this game have a very strong basis in describing what that creature or permanent is within a fantasy setting.
First Strike, means it hits really fast.
I see no major issue here.
Spirits
Spirits
This fits the classic wizard archetype quite well as they are thought of far more as being spellslingers and enchanters than summoners.
Not relaly arguing for or against prowess being evergreen, just vouching for the high fantasy flavor of prowess.
-Chandra Nalaar
Show me examples in classical world mythology where distinctions like this care that a character/creature becomes excitable with nonsummoning magic, than I’ll soften my stance that prowess never made sense to be an evergreen ability in a game called Magic the Gathering, that you know draws from world mythology.
Why hello there. It's me again. Don't think I didn't notice what you did there.
Just because something didn't work out doesn't mean it was necessarily a bad idea to try. Haven't you heard anything about omelettes and cracking eggs Discovery requires experimentation.
Or for that matter, the fact that nobody is perfect. So even if it was a bad idea to try it, so what? It's easy to make things look bad when you focus on the mistakes.
And let's not forget, prowess isn't even out yet.
So I stand by my statement- WotC knows what they are doing. On balance, things work out well. Certainly, there are problems, and we are right to criticise them for it. But let's not pretend that WotC is just a bunch of amateurs (or just soulless corporates) and any old guy could manage things half as well.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
At least that's how I see it now.
'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
Thats what Maro has said;
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/178579451293/why-is-there-no-prowess-in-grn-the-whole-izzet
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/178389285603/hey-mark-what-exactly-is-the-problem-with
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
It’s a weird creature mechanic that is dependent on spells. And as Dominaria and Ravnica shows, eats up design space of type matter themes.
It has also very limited design space. The “pump” does not scale well on the creature stats. This is unlike First strike which works differently on small and large creatures.
Prowess is also problematic on blue creatures. Blue creatures are not agressive and blue spells are mostly reactive. So Prowess works on certain sets where they can be enabled but not evergreen.
Perhaps a good mechanic for blue red is an evasion mechanic I call “outsize” (fine, the name sucks, but hear me out)
Outsize (This creature cannot be blocked by creatured with lesser power)
This is a green mechanic but this works better red/blue because red has +X/+0, blue has -X/-0, and both have p/t switching.
Edit: Mechanically works
But flavor wise it is hard to justify.
I can’t believe prowess made more appearances than banding made on creatures, despite developments’s claims prowess is too problematic to just staple onto creatures.
Oh, I just realized you necroposted. And I replied to it. Sorry about that, mods.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
They keyworded it specifically for Tarkir, where this specific variation was a fitting theme for Jeskai. Keeping it as an evergreen keyword was more of an afterthought (though from our outside perspective and due to overlapping design cycles this "afterthought" has been well-integrated and quickly realized). It made sense there - and if you don't look too hard at it then you might make that mistake of thinking: We have so many variations and prowess kinda covrs all of them, so why not make it evergreen?
The issue is that in practice you often would prefer variations that e. g. not boost toughness or scale differently or are really specialized towards one or two of the many noncreature card types. And themes that previously would ebb and flow (blue-red caring about instants and sorceries in one set and caring about artifacts in another, maybe about casting multiple spells in general in a third set etc.) would now be always present and blur the lines between different themes.
It's just that prowess has two or three more little problems as well (being a A+B mechanic, no matter how generous; issues with play design balance since any prowess card can become a finisher etc.) and it adds up.
I think the lessons learnt here can inform some new attempts, so the experiment was not all a waste.
You try things. Sometimes they even work.
Well, blue-black has flash now. And I'm quite happy about the solution to rearrange evergreen keywords in this case.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
They will need to find new design space.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
Distraction (Whenever this creature becomes blocked, you may reassign its blockers to another attacking creature.)
"This creature distracts target blocking creature. (That creature blocks this creature instead of the creature it was blocking.)"
"This creature distracts target blocking creature. (That creature blocks this creature this turn if able.)"
The general idea is that UR can do for blocking what spells like Swerve do for spell targets. Since green is also a major forced blocking color, it could be tertiary at distracting.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
I can't say for sure, but this seems like it would be either or both difficult to make work in the rules and complicated to play.
I do like the idea of something with choices like this though. Seems appropriate for and something WotC has been experimenting with more over time (e.g. Escalate, Riot).
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
That sounds an awful lot like how Sorrow's Path was trying to be. Only I like this version better.
'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.