Anyone else wondering if we'll see a return to Classic tribal for the core races with Dominaria OR the following Core Set? I don't think the environment has ever been more ripe for it - since we have all of these races with a definite showing already in Standard - thanks to all the goblins and merfolk in XLN. With Wizards making Dwarves the new non-human cannon white race, there's now one for each colour.
There's also a strong contingent of orcs in XLN... which makes me wonder if orc tribal will be a thing as well (and a possible reprinting of Orc General - which is not on the reserve list - I checked)
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I don't think Dwarves are the "official" white characteristic race at this point. They were an experiment in Kaladesh in both White and Red, and they haven't shown up in either of the blocks since. According to MaRo, this experiment was "not as much of a success as we'd hoped" ([source]), so I think the chances of them becoming the permanent white characteristic race are pretty low.
Goblins, Merfolk, and Elves have all been features in Dominaria in the past. I doubt we'll see a huge tribal component right on the back of Ixalan block, however.
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Goblins, Merfolk, and Elves have all been features in Dominaria in the past. I doubt we'll see a huge tribal component right on the back of Ixalan block, however.
Pretty much this. I think the most we can hope for is a nu-lord cycle with white possibly getting a Human lord.
For the foreseeable future, white's characteristic race is going to continue to be "whatever seems like it fits the plane"; I would love for Kor to be it, but they aren't recognizable fantasy creatures nor are they fitting with every world. Dwarves are a better fit but, again, would hard to be justify on that many planes.
There are plenty of Merfolk-less and Elf-less planes and a decidedly smaller but still existing number of Goblin-less ones, most notably Innistrad. And black goes back and forth between Vampires and Zombies. The characteristic races might be in constant flux officially, now.
I doubt we'll see a huge tribal component right on the back of Ixalan block, however.
I'm actually thinking the opposite. Every single set since SOI has had some tribal component. KLD had Dwarves, servos and thopters, AKH had Zombies, Minotaurs and to a lesser extent Sphinges. The printing of Arcane Adaptation and Vanquisher's Banner suggest to me that we'll be seeing more Tribal this year.
Given that the rumors of Slivers are pretty strong for Dominaria - there will be at least some tribal there. I'm reasonably sure that the core set will push the classic races - at least the most common 4 (Elves, goblins, merfolk and zombies) I'll grant you that dwarves are a strech but what else would they do for white? Humans are only a tribe on Innistrad.
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I think it's already expected that we get more Elves, Merfolk, Goblins etc. just from returning to Dominaria as a setting. And Goblins were on Ixalan without actual tribal support, so there is certainly an opportunity here to give them some lords in DOM for cross-synergy.
I basically expect some lords without as deep a tribal theme as on Ixalan. But mostly there should be a lot of diversity in the cards from the things we know already. After all we return to the plane that we know most intimately and from the perspective of multiple intraplanar cultures.
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
Well, it definitely won't be Kithkin. (Or will it be? )
Only if they manage to figure out to make Kithkin and Dwarves more distinct. If they wanted, they could have told us Kaladesh had kithkin e. g. Solemn Recruit, Countless Gears Renegade.
yd12k asked: You missed my ask on my actual birthday so asking again: Any trivia on my favourite theme, tribal?
We have messed around a lot with tribal themes and have turned the dial way up and way down. We’ve come to the conclusion that every block needs a little bit of tribal and that’s why Theros had Minotaur tribal and Khans has Warrior tribal. Some blocks though get to turn the dial a bit more up and from time to time we’ll make it a key theme of a block.
It’s interesting back in Onslaught, when I first pitched the idea of a tribal theme, I was met with a lot of resistance. People thought there were some players who liked it but didn’t feel that number was high enough to support a major theme. Obviously, time has proved me correct.
I have no doubt we'll see a tribal component in Dominaria. But it's much more likely to be a small amount, rather than a key component.
Individual cards promoting "Tribal" aren't always a sign that the next set will be tribal based. M15 had Obelisk of Urd in between Theros and Tarkir which had only minor tribal elements. M13 (5 merfolk) got Master of the Pearl Trident, in between Innistrad (no merfolk) and RTR block (4 merfolk). Xenograft and Adaptive Automaton were plants for Innistrad, which had a strong tribal theme, but by comparison, Scars block had...what golem and myr only?
Plus, it's sort of bad form to go "Here's a tribal set with all these crazy new tribes! And to excite you for the next block, here's a tribal set with all these old tribes! Oh, and two of the tribes get massive bonuses from the previous blocks, while the other two have had minimal printing!"
And maybe it's just me, but I'm going to roll my eyes if we get yet another set with a freakin' zombie tribal subtheme. It will literally have been every other set since the new block structure, plus some bonuses from the first block of the two set rotation, AND the block before that.
"Oh, and two of the tribes get massive bonuses from the previous blocks, while the other two have had minimal printing!
I'm assuming the tribes you're referring to are Merfolk (Ixalan) and Zombies (Amonkhet) versus Goblins and Elves?
I'd be surprised if Dominaria didn't have at least token tribal support for the core four. I mean, it makes sense to have at least a little Goblin and Elf tribal on a plane heavily populated by Goblins and Elves. Plus there's Onslaught block to pay homage to.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
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You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Well, it definitely won't be Kithkin. (Or will it be? )
Only if they manage to figure out to make Kithkin and Dwarves more distinct. If they wanted, they could have told us Kaladesh had kithkin e. g. Solemn Recruit, Countless Gears Renegade.
Kithkin are more like hobbits. But the Tolkien estate has a habit of sending C&D "love notes" to anyone who uses the H-word. So we have halflings, bobits, kithkin, and many other creatures that are obviously hobbits but not called hobbits.
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Kithkin are more like hobbits. But the Tolkien estate has a habit of sending C&D "love notes" to anyone who uses the H-word. So we have halflings, bobits, kithkin, and many other creatures that are obviously hobbits but not called hobbits.
Yeah, but if you want to have both halflings (by whatever name) and dwarves in your fantasy setting and be interesting alternatives to your audience, you've got to give them distinguishing features. My point is that the recent push towards white Dwrf cards made the already existing overlap between the concept spaces of these two tribes even more pronounced. Hence I don't see much interest to make more Kithkin cards in a world that has monowhite Dwarves that are visually not distinct.
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
Well, at its very basic level, there's an intrinsic difference between Dwarves and Kithkin; the same one that separates Warriors and Soldiers. (And Mercenaries and Barbarians and and and.)
Plus, Kithkin were supposed to have that thoughtweft/mindweft thing going on, although that sometimes seemed tenuous, mechanically speaking, in the cards.
My real point was that a lot of races we take to be non-Dominaria-specific actually did start there.
Well, at its very basic level, there's an intrinsic difference between Dwarves and Kithkin; the same one that separates Warriors and Soldiers. (And Mercenaries and Barbarians and and and.)
Care to elaborate? As far as I can tell Soldiers are members of an organized army, Warriors are individuals of combat experience, Barbarians are tribal people not belonging to a larger civilization, Mercenaries are those selling there services to various masters - if multiple classes apply only the most appropriate apply.
Both Dwarves and Kithkin have a reasonably long history of Soldiers (relative to their numbers) and Dwarves appearing mostly in read historically have also had Warriors. This is because the "intrinsic difference" between Soldier and Warrior used to be as simple as "white gets Soldiers" (because armies are organized) and "red gets Warriors" (because individual strength/courage is valued higher) and Kithkin and Dwarves used to be separated along the same line.
But with fully monocolored white Dwarves this "intrinsic difference" no longer seemed to apply to Dwarves at all - and they become both in accompanying class type as well as visuals much closer to Kithkin. Maybe that "intrinsic difference" was their color association after all?
Plus, Kithkin were supposed to have that thoughtweft/mindweft thing going on, although that sometimes seemed tenuous, mechanically speaking, in the cards.
That's only Lorwyn/Shadowmoor though. I am not aware of any source implying this applies to Dominarian Kithkin.
My real point was that a lot of races we take to be non-Dominaria-specific actually did start there.
And it imported a bunch over time.
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
There's also a strong contingent of orcs in XLN... which makes me wonder if orc tribal will be a thing as well (and a possible reprinting of Orc General - which is not on the reserve list - I checked)
Goblins, Merfolk, and Elves have all been features in Dominaria in the past. I doubt we'll see a huge tribal component right on the back of Ixalan block, however.
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Pretty much this. I think the most we can hope for is a nu-lord cycle with white possibly getting a Human lord.
For the foreseeable future, white's characteristic race is going to continue to be "whatever seems like it fits the plane"; I would love for Kor to be it, but they aren't recognizable fantasy creatures nor are they fitting with every world. Dwarves are a better fit but, again, would hard to be justify on that many planes.
There are plenty of Merfolk-less and Elf-less planes and a decidedly smaller but still existing number of Goblin-less ones, most notably Innistrad. And black goes back and forth between Vampires and Zombies. The characteristic races might be in constant flux officially, now.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
I'm actually thinking the opposite. Every single set since SOI has had some tribal component. KLD had Dwarves, servos and thopters, AKH had Zombies, Minotaurs and to a lesser extent Sphinges. The printing of Arcane Adaptation and Vanquisher's Banner suggest to me that we'll be seeing more Tribal this year.
Given that the rumors of Slivers are pretty strong for Dominaria - there will be at least some tribal there. I'm reasonably sure that the core set will push the classic races - at least the most common 4 (Elves, goblins, merfolk and zombies) I'll grant you that dwarves are a strech but what else would they do for white? Humans are only a tribe on Innistrad.
And Theros apparently.
I think it's already expected that we get more Elves, Merfolk, Goblins etc. just from returning to Dominaria as a setting. And Goblins were on Ixalan without actual tribal support, so there is certainly an opportunity here to give them some lords in DOM for cross-synergy.
I basically expect some lords without as deep a tribal theme as on Ixalan. But mostly there should be a lot of diversity in the cards from the things we know already. After all we return to the plane that we know most intimately and from the perspective of multiple intraplanar cultures.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
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Only if they manage to figure out to make Kithkin and Dwarves more distinct. If they wanted, they could have told us Kaladesh had kithkin e. g. Solemn Recruit, Countless Gears Renegade.
Just compare the left-frame Airdrop Aeronaut with the Amrou Seekers...
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
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yd12k asked: You missed my ask on my actual birthday so asking again: Any trivia on my favourite theme, tribal?
We have messed around a lot with tribal themes and have turned the dial way up and way down. We’ve come to the conclusion that every block needs a little bit of tribal and that’s why Theros had Minotaur tribal and Khans has Warrior tribal. Some blocks though get to turn the dial a bit more up and from time to time we’ll make it a key theme of a block.
It’s interesting back in Onslaught, when I first pitched the idea of a tribal theme, I was met with a lot of resistance. People thought there were some players who liked it but didn’t feel that number was high enough to support a major theme. Obviously, time has proved me correct.
I have no doubt we'll see a tribal component in Dominaria. But it's much more likely to be a small amount, rather than a key component.
Individual cards promoting "Tribal" aren't always a sign that the next set will be tribal based. M15 had Obelisk of Urd in between Theros and Tarkir which had only minor tribal elements. M13 (5 merfolk) got Master of the Pearl Trident, in between Innistrad (no merfolk) and RTR block (4 merfolk). Xenograft and Adaptive Automaton were plants for Innistrad, which had a strong tribal theme, but by comparison, Scars block had...what golem and myr only?
Plus, it's sort of bad form to go "Here's a tribal set with all these crazy new tribes! And to excite you for the next block, here's a tribal set with all these old tribes! Oh, and two of the tribes get massive bonuses from the previous blocks, while the other two have had minimal printing!"
And maybe it's just me, but I'm going to roll my eyes if we get yet another set with a freakin' zombie tribal subtheme. It will literally have been every other set since the new block structure, plus some bonuses from the first block of the two set rotation, AND the block before that.
I'm assuming the tribes you're referring to are Merfolk (Ixalan) and Zombies (Amonkhet) versus Goblins and Elves?
I'd be surprised if Dominaria didn't have at least token tribal support for the core four. I mean, it makes sense to have at least a little Goblin and Elf tribal on a plane heavily populated by Goblins and Elves. Plus there's Onslaught block to pay homage to.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Kithkin are more like hobbits. But the Tolkien estate has a habit of sending C&D "love notes" to anyone who uses the H-word. So we have halflings, bobits, kithkin, and many other creatures that are obviously hobbits but not called hobbits.
On phasing:
Yeah, but if you want to have both halflings (by whatever name) and dwarves in your fantasy setting and be interesting alternatives to your audience, you've got to give them distinguishing features. My point is that the recent push towards white Dwrf cards made the already existing overlap between the concept spaces of these two tribes even more pronounced. Hence I don't see much interest to make more Kithkin cards in a world that has monowhite Dwarves that are visually not distinct.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
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Plus, Kithkin were supposed to have that thoughtweft/mindweft thing going on, although that sometimes seemed tenuous, mechanically speaking, in the cards.
My real point was that a lot of races we take to be non-Dominaria-specific actually did start there.
Care to elaborate? As far as I can tell Soldiers are members of an organized army, Warriors are individuals of combat experience, Barbarians are tribal people not belonging to a larger civilization, Mercenaries are those selling there services to various masters - if multiple classes apply only the most appropriate apply.
Both Dwarves and Kithkin have a reasonably long history of Soldiers (relative to their numbers) and Dwarves appearing mostly in read historically have also had Warriors. This is because the "intrinsic difference" between Soldier and Warrior used to be as simple as "white gets Soldiers" (because armies are organized) and "red gets Warriors" (because individual strength/courage is valued higher) and Kithkin and Dwarves used to be separated along the same line.
But with fully monocolored white Dwarves this "intrinsic difference" no longer seemed to apply to Dwarves at all - and they become both in accompanying class type as well as visuals much closer to Kithkin. Maybe that "intrinsic difference" was their color association after all?
That's only Lorwyn/Shadowmoor though. I am not aware of any source implying this applies to Dominarian Kithkin.
And it imported a bunch over time.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
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Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
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(W/U)(B/R)GForm of Progenitus, Shape of a Scrubland
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URGAnimar, the RUG CleanerFoil
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BG(B/G)Not Another Meren DeckFoil
UR(U/R)Mizzix, Y Control and X Burn Spells
(W/U)(B/R)GHarold Ramos - The 35 Foot Long Twinkie (In +1/+1 counters)
UB(U/B)Dragonlord Silumgar