Vikings would probably be grouped into being a prominent soldier tribe into a Norse Mythology set with Norse gods, and have it be like an Arctic Circle cultures plane.
I could picture BR Minotaurs and GW Centaurs filling the role of natives; bull people and horse people would fit right in, and being associated most with axes and bows respectively, they could easily adapt many of the iconic Native weapons like the tomahawk. Not to mention their main colors are opposed to the main color of artifice, blue, with the red Minotaurs also opposing white-aligned settlers and the green Centaurs opposing black-aligned industrialists and poachers.
And WU aven, I would presume? Seriously, whenever this comes up, MTGSal users always ignore so many blue options. Especially since Hundred-in-the-Hands was only won via trickery. Or then you have visions and dreams. (I'll admit, a vision quest always seemed more black/white to me? Black means, white ends.)
(Of course, another iconic weapon was the Winchester repeater rifle. Just ask Custer. I know, I know, Magic, no guns, but I get tired of the "Indians don't use guns" trope in Westerns. It's so stupid, it's like "Oh, here's this weapon that can kill a man within your line of sight, and don't use it because reasons." Originally, racism. Now, white liberals projecting their anxieties about guns and other stuff onto Indians.)
Vikings would be kinda cool, but then that also is probably similar, mythos-wise, to Trakir.
...how?
I think he's referring to the idea of a raiding culture like the Mardu Horde. Of course, one could say the same thing about Ixalan or even Ravnica.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I could picture BR Minotaurs and GW Centaurs filling the role of natives; bull people and horse people would fit right in, and being associated most with axes and bows respectively, they could easily adapt many of the iconic Native weapons like the tomahawk. Not to mention their main colors are opposed to the main color of artifice, blue, with the red Minotaurs also opposing white-aligned settlers and the green Centaurs opposing black-aligned industrialists and poachers.
And WU aven, I would presume? Seriously, whenever this comes up, MTGSal users always ignore so many blue options. Especially since Hundred-in-the-Hands was only won via trickery. Or then you have visions and dreams. (I'll admit, a vision quest always seemed more black/white to me? Black means, white ends.)
I'm pretty sure I listed WU or WUB Aven in an earlier post, and I could see white Aven play into the native theme as well, but in my proposed Western setting blue and black are aligned more with settlers, industry, and outlaws, while green is the color most focused on the native aspect. Mechanically, the set focuses more on Western tropes like partners (paired creatures, plus maybe partner with legends like Battlebond), Gold, spellslinging (magic version of gunslinging), pioneering/prospecting, and farming/ranching.
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
It just occurred to me that a Viking set could mark the return of Snow lands. It’s been a long while since they’ve had snow lands and the price of Snow covered mountains are $2+ because of the decks that use skred. I could even see them doing full art Snow lands if the demand was high enough.
Snow is unfortunately an if rather than a when, but I concur that a Norse/Viking world would make sense for Snow to return. If it does, they won't have Snow-Covered Basics anymore, but they'll probably have Snow duals.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
I'm pretty sure I listed WU or WUB Aven in an earlier post, and I could see white Aven play into the native theme as well, but in my proposed Western setting blue and black are aligned more with settlers, industry, and outlaws, while green is the color most focused on the native aspect. Mechanically, the set focuses more on Western tropes like partners (paired creatures, plus maybe partner with legends like Battlebond), Gold, spellslinging (magic version of gunslinging), pioneering/prospecting, and farming/ranching.
Manifest destiny is green, maybe black/green, but definitely green. I mean, it has ******* "destiny" in the name. And it fits into green's whole "growth" theme. So does cancer.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I think a Western set has two issues that it would need to overcome.
1) Regional Interest. Westerns as a genre historically have great popularity in the US, but less so abroad. It's a uniquely American genre (with of course a level of appreciation in the rest of North America to a lesser degree) that may face an uphill climb when it comes to marketing it abroad. And the audience for Westerns (at least in film, but I think it affects the genre as a whole) is increasingly older and white even within America. A Western setting may have a lot of interest regionally, but MtG is sold globally and tepid interest in a setting could be an issue. So, like Ixalan (with dinosaurs and pirates), a Western set would need to incorporate themes to extend interest in it beyond just being Western. Not impossible, but definitely a challenge WotC would need to address.
2) Indigenous Involvement. There is a tension between audience expectations and WotC's responsibility to treat real world concepts with respect. I think a great deal of the audience would expect "Indians" in their "Cowboy" set (like expecting "Ninjas" and "Samurai" in their Japanese set). Executing that without doing so disrespectfully would be near impossible as it would inherently play into "stuck in time" tropes seen so often in this genre. I've seen coding other MtG races as 'Indigenous' to work around this, but I'm not sold that does the job much better. There are absolutely ways of exploring some Indigenous concepts in MtG (though obviously those concepts aren't part of a monolith and there is no one standard Indigenous mythology or culture to draw on), but the Western genre has historically depicted Indigenous peoples in negative, stereotypical way and navigating that with respect would be difficult.
Can these issues be overcome? Certainly, but those are choppy waters. But, like has been mentioned, Ixalan on paper sounded like a complete cluster**** but was executed rather deftly. A Western set could be executed well, too, but there are issues to face.
I think a Western set has two issues that it would need to overcome.
1) Regional Interest. Westerns as a genre historically have great popularity in the US, but less so abroad.
I can unequivocally say this one's not true. Germany is one of the countries where Magic is popular and Germany also happens to be the country besides the US where the Western genre was biggest in the early to mid 20th century. Other countries across Europe would also be likely to "get" Western tropes. Can't say for sure that's true everywhere but I know Japanese pop culture loves cowboys (look at the American pro wrestlers who performed there in the 80s-90s).
The biggest issues imo would be portraying the Magic-ized version of Indigenous people, and explaining away the guns in a fantasy/not-sci-fi world. Yes, P:2A, but it'd be hard to justify why Kaladesh has no gunpowder but this world would.
I think a Western set has two issues that it would need to overcome.
1) Regional Interest. Westerns as a genre historically have great popularity in the US, but less so abroad.
I can unequivocally say this one's not true. Germany is one of the countries where Magic is popular and Germany also happens to be the country besides the US where the Western genre was biggest in the early to mid 20th century. Other countries across Europe would also be likely to "get" Western tropes. Can't say for sure that's true everywhere but I know Japanese pop culture loves cowboys (look at the American pro wrestlers who performed there in the 80s-90s).
I don't think that disproves my point. I only said that the popularity of Westerns is centralized in America, and less popular overseas - not that there doesn't exist places in the world outside America that Westerns are known or held popularity at one point. I think there's a global recognition of the genre, but the interest in it varies wildly depending on region (with America obviously being the largest audience for it), which can affect global interest in the setting. It's not impossible to do, but WotC would be wise not to overestimate the interest in Westerns in foreign markets and carefully layer in additional concepts popular in regions where a Western setting itself may not be a draw. Which they have been doing in recent sets where the setting itself may not be as understood/appreciated/etc on its own.
And I think it's a mistake to reflect on Westerns' popularity 25-75 years ago because the genre (in film, anyway) has been slowly fading for the better part of the past 50 years. It sees momentary surges in popularity, but those are rarely sustained and typically fail to hit historical highs (which, in fairness, would be nigh impossible given the prevalence and popularity of the genre from 1910-1980). That said, there have been some successful attempts at adapting the genre to modern audiences so it's definitely not an entirely dead genre, just one that is heavily tied to a time and a place and that may pose a challenge for WotC should they adapt it.
The biggest issues imo would be portraying the Magic-ized version of Indigenous people, and explaining away the guns in a fantasy/not-sci-fi world. Yes, P:2A, but it'd be hard to justify why Kaladesh has no gunpowder but this world would.
It wouldn't have guns so they wouldn't need to explain it. MaRo has stated a number of times that they have no desire to include guns in the game and a Western World, if it ever comes to be, they would likely use spellslinging instead of shootouts or showdowns.
The best thing to do would be to include native tribes as they are known, at least for westerns, and avoid the more unsavory elements in history when regarding the west. Based on how pirates were handled in Ixalan block with guns, doubtful for small arms. That most small guns on characters would be replaced with just melee weapons and/or them casting spells. While bigger ones like cannons and gatling wouldn't be off the table as that is acceptable.
Vikings are almost a no-brainer. You got humans, giants, dwarves, dragons, angels (valkyries), trolls, elves, the gods. They could even bring back sagas. With snow, as in snow typing and snow mana and ice counters, it would also be the perfect time reintroduce it to players especially since the the snow mana icon got updated awhile back on gatherer and it would also help lower cost of snow-covered basics. It could easily be the equivalent of Theros in Winter with how they could do it top-down while making it distinct.
Outside of Native American themes, green in Western could be associated with exploration, hunting, and cultivation. I just feel like there should be a native component to contrast with the industrial aspect.
For a Viking/Norse set, an Einherjar mechanic could be neat, maybe something similar to Unearth. Raid would be likely as a Viking mechanic. But would Viking be its own type, or would Warriors take up the mantle? Of course, shapeshifting and trickery are also common themes in Norse myth.
I could see UR Giants being a tribal theme, representing the ice and fire giants. Elf and Dwarf tribal are also must-haves. Bird tribal could play into Odin's association with ravens (a raven man? Hmmm... ).
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
I think a viking set will come soon, if we just got a pirate set then we should also get other sets for old kinds of fantasy stories
I looked up the old Ice Age block but that wasn't rly a viking story. It was just scandinavian but it seemed more like it was imitating the medieval Christian period
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你好 have you eaten?
I'm a simple Magic player since 1 year ago from China. Now I live in New Jersey.
I could see UR Giants being a tribal theme, representing the ice and fire giants. Elf and Dwarf tribal are also must-haves. Bird tribal could play into Odin's association with ravens (a raven man? Hmmm... ).
Now you got me thinking. The Raven man being the Odin stand-in from a Norse pantheon who somehow managed to have interplanar influence would be cool. And also fitting, mythological Odin is an old scheming bastard who doesn't hesitate to trick others to further his own interests. Well, unless he takes a break to troll Thor while disguised as a ferryman, but I don't think this particular song will get its counterpart in Magic...
I think a Western set has two issues that it would need to overcome.
1) Regional Interest. Westerns as a genre historically have great popularity in the US, but less so abroad. It's a uniquely American genre (with of course a level of appreciation in the rest of North America to a lesser degree) that may face an uphill climb when it comes to marketing it abroad. And the audience for Westerns (at least in film, but I think it affects the genre as a whole) is increasingly older and white even within America. A Western setting may have a lot of interest regionally, but MtG is sold globally and tepid interest in a setting could be an issue. So, like Ixalan (with dinosaurs and pirates), a Western set would need to incorporate themes to extend interest in it beyond just being Western. Not impossible, but definitely a challenge WotC would need to address.
In addition to Germany, there is a Western subculture in Italy and Russia. A colleague's nephew was actually was in a Western bankrolled by an Israeli producer.
Keep in mind, the question "Will it play in China?" remains. And yes, The Lone Ranger was a flop. So was Skarsgård as Tarzan. This tells me that appealing to pre-Boomer generations' nostalgia is a fail. (Which makes sense: There aren't many of the Silent Generation, the generation which preceded the Baby Boomers, left.)
2) Indigenous Involvement. There is a tension between audience expectations and WotC's responsibility to treat real world concepts with respect. I think a great deal of the audience would expect "Indians" in their "Cowboy" set (like expecting "Ninjas" and "Samurai" in their Japanese set). Executing that without doing so disrespectfully would be near impossible as it would inherently play into "stuck in time" tropes seen so often in this genre. I've seen coding other MtG races as 'Indigenous' to work around this, but I'm not sold that does the job much better. There are absolutely ways of exploring some Indigenous concepts in MtG (though obviously those concepts aren't part of a monolith and there is no one standard Indigenous mythology or culture to draw on), but the Western genre has historically depicted Indigenous peoples in negative, stereotypical way and navigating that with respect would be difficult.
My biggest issue with Manite was that he was falling into the reverse issue, the "one with nature" trope. There are a lot of indigenous cultures, and while it's really hard to put one or another on the color pie, except the Pawnee, who are clearly WB for that whole human sacrifice thing. (A lot of Indians are still anti-Pawnee. For that and for being a bunch of quislings. You know, the usual.) A vision quest would be WB; I could even argue that it's basically what cards like Phyrexian Arena feel like, but you're using that knowledge for collective ends. The Lakota trickster figure Ĩktomi would be R. Another aspect of Lakota culture I must mention: If you're a man, you can't marry until you've proven yourself in combat, and you can't even touch a woman who has been pregnant at any point in the last three or four years. That's pretty "not green" right there, spacing out children like that?
But the myth that Indians are anti-technology needs to die. (And as I said, the ideology of manifest destiny is that whites have a destiny G to expand territory G and how is any of this not green?)
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
May be an odd and stupid question but wasn’t Battlebond similar to a Western set even if it didn’t have cowboys and Indians and the other things. We had a showdown, spellslinging, and standoff type set. Yeah it was more for E-Sports and that type of stuff but a set can have more than one theme. Look at ixalan that was dinosaurs and pirates.
Point is I sort of feel if we get a Western set it may be more meant for two headed giant or a similar set. I can see cowboys, outlaws, sheriffs, and Indians partnering with each other and giving a good ole fashion standoff. I’d be interested in another two headed giant set with a different setting or a battlebond set with a western twist.
May be an odd and stupid question but wasn’t Battlebond similar to a Western set even if it didn’t have cowboys and Indians and the other things. We had a showdown, spellslinging, and standoff type set. Yeah it was more for E-Sports and that type of stuff but a set can have more than one theme. Look at ixalan that was dinosaurs and pirates.
Point is I sort of feel if we get a Western set it may be more meant for two headed giant or a similar set. I can see cowboys, outlaws, sheriffs, and Indians partnering with each other and giving a good ole fashion standoff. I’d be interested in another two headed giant set with a different setting or a battlebond set with a western twist.
Battlebond was basically Hajime no Ippo without the dick jokes, so no. And many of the iconic Western scenes don't feel very multiplayer:
Duel Obviously 1v1 Mexican standoff Multiplayer, and in fact the very thing cards like Serra Angel were created to avoid in early Magic. But nope, not 2HG. Deputies and posses Team play, but deputy feels more Emperor?
Western tropes that haven't been mentioned:
I could see an angel or archon who's a hanging judge. (Or a demon who's a corrupt judge.)
Villainous bankers. Early populist cartoons and movies often had a bank always trying to impede your ability to pay so they could foreclose. Mining companies turning a machine gun on striking workers works the same way. Vampires?
Railroads. Well, we had twoalready. Actually, with wagons, coaches, and trains, we could have a vehicle subtheme. But railroads are important; the Sioux Wars were fought largely over railroads, and the railroads were identified by L Frank Baum as one of his wicked witches. (Today, you'd probably have Silicon Valley as a modern Wicked Witch of the West, but still...) Obviously the engineers could be dwarfs or vedalken.
Villains rewritten as heroes. Jesse James, Billy the Kid, and Butch and Sundance weren't Robin Hood or the chaotic good force people turn to when the law refuses to help with their problems. Jesse James was so good at PR that the legend began as soon as he was shot, or "assassinated" by the "coward" Robert Ford, per his obit; in reality, he was a Confederate who remained loyal to the Confederacy after its fall (and back then, that was considered treason), never gave a penny of his loot to the poor, and had protection rackets whenever he rode into town.
Some poker-related win condition. Maybe five cards sharing color forming a perfect sequence of CMC? Or a player loses if he or she controls exactly two permanents with one CMC and exactly two with another? (That would be Dead Man's Hand, but it's doubtful you'll have two with CMC 1 and two with CMC 8, so just make it two pair.)
Now, for the Viking set, I'm still iffy about snow. I'm not really a fan of these "marker" mechanics, but then again, Amonkhet made desert work. But other than that, I like the ideas floated in this thread. We could even reprint Deicide. And guten Dämmerung to everybody on the East Coast right now (if my calculations are accurate), because puns.
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
But the myth that Indians are anti-technology needs to die. (And as I said, the ideology of manifest destiny is that whites have a destiny G to expand territory G and how is any of this not green?)
Not so much anti-technology (though that is green) as anti-environmental destruction, a theme that shows up quite frequently in green. The white-aligned natives would oppose the industrials' labor exploitation and the outlaws' crimes against nature and society.
See, in a story where you have settlement and development, you need some kind of opposing force, something that's trying to impede the settlers and especially the industrials. The outlaws help provide antagonism for the settlers, but their relationship with industrials would be more ambivalent. To properly contrast with the industrial faction, you need a native element that opposes their method of expansion and resource procurement. "Manifest destiny" explorers only exacerbate the industrials' expansionist attitude; you need an anti-expansionist faction to counterbalance them, and settlers opposing expansionism seems a tad hypocritical and silly. "We settled this land first! We're already cutting down trees to build houses and farms!" The story works better if there is a native element.
But I'm all for green having explorers and hunters as well. They would be the green portion of the settlers, the first of their society to explore the western Frontier.
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
I'm not sure how they'd be able to do a Western theme without some sort of introduction to guns along the lines of Portal Second Age. And we all know how that went down...
You think of Westerns, you think of gun duels in a dusty desert town with pesky varmints getting drunk at their local saloon next to a ragtag piano player singing the latest news alongside a flapper-inspired dancing girl in a red frilly dress. I doubt they'd be able to, or willing, to pull that off.
'buster
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'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset. Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
Maro's suggested spellslinging taking the place of gunslinging. Shooting fire or lightning from your fingertips accomplishes much the same as shooting a bullet. Western world's Wizards simply wear cowboy hats. Fanservice isn't allowed anymore unless it's shirtless men, so forget about the saloon girl in a red dress. We didn't get wenches in Ixalan, we're not getting saloon girls in Western.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
here are more things from maro's list which have come to pass since i made this thread in 2017:
-return to ravnica (again)
-return of split cards
-return of hybrid mana
-selesnya x spell
-contraptions
-white "-ling"
-doubling season reprint
-return of kicker
-return of flashback jumpstart
-legendary bear
-legendary spider
-u/r artificer commander (we got 4)
-arixmethes card
imo a legendary fblthp card is nearly a guarantee in the next set (War of the Spark) due to wotcs many recent references to the character. maro has also specifically said that several of the requested mechanics almost made it into r3turn2ravn1ca (proliferate, splice, & ninjitsu). i don't think we are going to get any more nephilim despite their popularity and the fact that WAR seems like an appropriate set to print them in. i do still think cowboys and vikings are on the horizon. chandra would look good in a cowboy hat.
Man if you think that Ixalan's dinosaurs were scientifically correct...
I don't want to get too specific, so let's start to say that all the erbivorous dinosaurs with feather were wrong, for example.
How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
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|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
And WU aven, I would presume? Seriously, whenever this comes up, MTGSal users always ignore so many blue options. Especially since Hundred-in-the-Hands was only won via trickery. Or then you have visions and dreams. (I'll admit, a vision quest always seemed more black/white to me? Black means, white ends.)
(Of course, another iconic weapon was the Winchester repeater rifle. Just ask Custer. I know, I know, Magic, no guns, but I get tired of the "Indians don't use guns" trope in Westerns. It's so stupid, it's like "Oh, here's this weapon that can kill a man within your line of sight, and don't use it because reasons." Originally, racism. Now, white liberals projecting their anxieties about guns and other stuff onto Indians.)
I think he's referring to the idea of a raiding culture like the Mardu Horde. Of course, one could say the same thing about Ixalan or even Ravnica.
On phasing:
I'm pretty sure I listed WU or WUB Aven in an earlier post, and I could see white Aven play into the native theme as well, but in my proposed Western setting blue and black are aligned more with settlers, industry, and outlaws, while green is the color most focused on the native aspect. Mechanically, the set focuses more on Western tropes like partners (paired creatures, plus maybe partner with legends like Battlebond), Gold, spellslinging (magic version of gunslinging), pioneering/prospecting, and farming/ranching.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Manifest destiny is green, maybe black/green, but definitely green. I mean, it has ******* "destiny" in the name. And it fits into green's whole "growth" theme. So does cancer.
On phasing:
1) Regional Interest. Westerns as a genre historically have great popularity in the US, but less so abroad. It's a uniquely American genre (with of course a level of appreciation in the rest of North America to a lesser degree) that may face an uphill climb when it comes to marketing it abroad. And the audience for Westerns (at least in film, but I think it affects the genre as a whole) is increasingly older and white even within America. A Western setting may have a lot of interest regionally, but MtG is sold globally and tepid interest in a setting could be an issue. So, like Ixalan (with dinosaurs and pirates), a Western set would need to incorporate themes to extend interest in it beyond just being Western. Not impossible, but definitely a challenge WotC would need to address.
2) Indigenous Involvement. There is a tension between audience expectations and WotC's responsibility to treat real world concepts with respect. I think a great deal of the audience would expect "Indians" in their "Cowboy" set (like expecting "Ninjas" and "Samurai" in their Japanese set). Executing that without doing so disrespectfully would be near impossible as it would inherently play into "stuck in time" tropes seen so often in this genre. I've seen coding other MtG races as 'Indigenous' to work around this, but I'm not sold that does the job much better. There are absolutely ways of exploring some Indigenous concepts in MtG (though obviously those concepts aren't part of a monolith and there is no one standard Indigenous mythology or culture to draw on), but the Western genre has historically depicted Indigenous peoples in negative, stereotypical way and navigating that with respect would be difficult.
Can these issues be overcome? Certainly, but those are choppy waters. But, like has been mentioned, Ixalan on paper sounded like a complete cluster**** but was executed rather deftly. A Western set could be executed well, too, but there are issues to face.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
The biggest issues imo would be portraying the Magic-ized version of Indigenous people, and explaining away the guns in a fantasy/not-sci-fi world. Yes, P:2A, but it'd be hard to justify why Kaladesh has no gunpowder but this world would.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
I don't think that disproves my point. I only said that the popularity of Westerns is centralized in America, and less popular overseas - not that there doesn't exist places in the world outside America that Westerns are known or held popularity at one point. I think there's a global recognition of the genre, but the interest in it varies wildly depending on region (with America obviously being the largest audience for it), which can affect global interest in the setting. It's not impossible to do, but WotC would be wise not to overestimate the interest in Westerns in foreign markets and carefully layer in additional concepts popular in regions where a Western setting itself may not be a draw. Which they have been doing in recent sets where the setting itself may not be as understood/appreciated/etc on its own.
And I think it's a mistake to reflect on Westerns' popularity 25-75 years ago because the genre (in film, anyway) has been slowly fading for the better part of the past 50 years. It sees momentary surges in popularity, but those are rarely sustained and typically fail to hit historical highs (which, in fairness, would be nigh impossible given the prevalence and popularity of the genre from 1910-1980). That said, there have been some successful attempts at adapting the genre to modern audiences so it's definitely not an entirely dead genre, just one that is heavily tied to a time and a place and that may pose a challenge for WotC should they adapt it.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
Vikings are almost a no-brainer. You got humans, giants, dwarves, dragons, angels (valkyries), trolls, elves, the gods. They could even bring back sagas. With snow, as in snow typing and snow mana and ice counters, it would also be the perfect time reintroduce it to players especially since the the snow mana icon got updated awhile back on gatherer and it would also help lower cost of snow-covered basics. It could easily be the equivalent of Theros in Winter with how they could do it top-down while making it distinct.
For a Viking/Norse set, an Einherjar mechanic could be neat, maybe something similar to Unearth. Raid would be likely as a Viking mechanic. But would Viking be its own type, or would Warriors take up the mantle? Of course, shapeshifting and trickery are also common themes in Norse myth.
I could see UR Giants being a tribal theme, representing the ice and fire giants. Elf and Dwarf tribal are also must-haves. Bird tribal could play into Odin's association with ravens (a raven man? Hmmm... ).
This tribal setup could work:
UB Birds
GW Elves
UR Giants
BG Trolls
RW Dwarves
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
I looked up the old Ice Age block but that wasn't rly a viking story. It was just scandinavian but it seemed more like it was imitating the medieval Christian period
I'm a simple Magic player since 1 year ago from China. Now I live in New Jersey.
Now you got me thinking. The Raven man being the Odin stand-in from a Norse pantheon who somehow managed to have interplanar influence would be cool. And also fitting, mythological Odin is an old scheming bastard who doesn't hesitate to trick others to further his own interests. Well, unless he takes a break to troll Thor while disguised as a ferryman, but I don't think this particular song will get its counterpart in Magic...
In addition to Germany, there is a Western subculture in Italy and Russia. A colleague's nephew was actually was in a Western bankrolled by an Israeli producer.
Keep in mind, the question "Will it play in China?" remains. And yes, The Lone Ranger was a flop. So was Skarsgård as Tarzan. This tells me that appealing to pre-Boomer generations' nostalgia is a fail. (Which makes sense: There aren't many of the Silent Generation, the generation which preceded the Baby Boomers, left.)
My biggest issue with Manite was that he was falling into the reverse issue, the "one with nature" trope. There are a lot of indigenous cultures, and while it's really hard to put one or another on the color pie, except the Pawnee, who are clearly WB for that whole human sacrifice thing. (A lot of Indians are still anti-Pawnee. For that and for being a bunch of quislings. You know, the usual.) A vision quest would be WB; I could even argue that it's basically what cards like Phyrexian Arena feel like, but you're using that knowledge for collective ends. The Lakota trickster figure Ĩktomi would be R. Another aspect of Lakota culture I must mention: If you're a man, you can't marry until you've proven yourself in combat, and you can't even touch a woman who has been pregnant at any point in the last three or four years. That's pretty "not green" right there, spacing out children like that?
But the myth that Indians are anti-technology needs to die. (And as I said, the ideology of manifest destiny is that whites have a destiny G to expand territory G and how is any of this not green?)
On phasing:
Point is I sort of feel if we get a Western set it may be more meant for two headed giant or a similar set. I can see cowboys, outlaws, sheriffs, and Indians partnering with each other and giving a good ole fashion standoff. I’d be interested in another two headed giant set with a different setting or a battlebond set with a western twist.
Battlebond was basically Hajime no Ippo without the dick jokes, so no. And many of the iconic Western scenes don't feel very multiplayer:
Duel Obviously 1v1
Mexican standoff Multiplayer, and in fact the very thing cards like Serra Angel were created to avoid in early Magic. But nope, not 2HG.
Deputies and posses Team play, but deputy feels more Emperor?
Western tropes that haven't been mentioned:
I could see an angel or archon who's a hanging judge. (Or a demon who's a corrupt judge.)
Villainous bankers. Early populist cartoons and movies often had a bank always trying to impede your ability to pay so they could foreclose. Mining companies turning a machine gun on striking workers works the same way. Vampires?
Railroads. Well, we had two already. Actually, with wagons, coaches, and trains, we could have a vehicle subtheme. But railroads are important; the Sioux Wars were fought largely over railroads, and the railroads were identified by L Frank Baum as one of his wicked witches. (Today, you'd probably have Silicon Valley as a modern Wicked Witch of the West, but still...) Obviously the engineers could be dwarfs or vedalken.
Villains rewritten as heroes. Jesse James, Billy the Kid, and Butch and Sundance weren't Robin Hood or the chaotic good force people turn to when the law refuses to help with their problems. Jesse James was so good at PR that the legend began as soon as he was shot, or "assassinated" by the "coward" Robert Ford, per his obit; in reality, he was a Confederate who remained loyal to the Confederacy after its fall (and back then, that was considered treason), never gave a penny of his loot to the poor, and had protection rackets whenever he rode into town.
Some poker-related win condition. Maybe five cards sharing color forming a perfect sequence of CMC? Or a player loses if he or she controls exactly two permanents with one CMC and exactly two with another? (That would be Dead Man's Hand, but it's doubtful you'll have two with CMC 1 and two with CMC 8, so just make it two pair.)
Now, for the Viking set, I'm still iffy about snow. I'm not really a fan of these "marker" mechanics, but then again, Amonkhet made desert work. But other than that, I like the ideas floated in this thread. We could even reprint Deicide. And guten Dämmerung to everybody on the East Coast right now (if my calculations are accurate), because puns.
On phasing:
Not so much anti-technology (though that is green) as anti-environmental destruction, a theme that shows up quite frequently in green. The white-aligned natives would oppose the industrials' labor exploitation and the outlaws' crimes against nature and society.
See, in a story where you have settlement and development, you need some kind of opposing force, something that's trying to impede the settlers and especially the industrials. The outlaws help provide antagonism for the settlers, but their relationship with industrials would be more ambivalent. To properly contrast with the industrial faction, you need a native element that opposes their method of expansion and resource procurement. "Manifest destiny" explorers only exacerbate the industrials' expansionist attitude; you need an anti-expansionist faction to counterbalance them, and settlers opposing expansionism seems a tad hypocritical and silly. "We settled this land first! We're already cutting down trees to build houses and farms!" The story works better if there is a native element.
But I'm all for green having explorers and hunters as well. They would be the green portion of the settlers, the first of their society to explore the western Frontier.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
You think of Westerns, you think of gun duels in a dusty desert town with pesky varmints getting drunk at their local saloon next to a ragtag piano player singing the latest news alongside a flapper-inspired dancing girl in a red frilly dress. I doubt they'd be able to, or willing, to pull that off.
'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
-return to ravnica (again)
-return of split cards
-return of hybrid mana
-selesnya x spell
-contraptions
-white "-ling"
-doubling season reprint
-return of kicker
-
return of flashbackjumpstart-legendary bear
-legendary spider
-u/r artificer commander (we got 4)
-arixmethes card
imo a legendary fblthp card is nearly a guarantee in the next set (War of the Spark) due to wotcs many recent references to the character. maro has also specifically said that several of the requested mechanics almost made it into r3turn2ravn1ca (proliferate, splice, & ninjitsu). i don't think we are going to get any more nephilim despite their popularity and the fact that WAR seems like an appropriate set to print them in. i do still think cowboys and vikings are on the horizon. chandra would look good in a cowboy hat.
Vikings being soon has plenty of stuff pointing in that direction thou
Man if you think that Ixalan's dinosaurs were scientifically correct...
I don't want to get too specific, so let's start to say that all the erbivorous dinosaurs with feather were wrong, for example.