That sounds better for a class-themed tribal set. I'm talking about something closer to Origins, where Kamigawa would be one of several featured planes, probably five total, one for each featured planeswalker.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
I'd like that but I'm sure all of us would appreciate a Kamigawa-centric expansion set rather than being relegated to a core set. It IS an idea nonetheless.
But class mechanics ought to be a regular feature if you ask me regardless of which setting they're in. It might flood the pool with mechanics but it would keep the flavour and environment very much alive and diversified.
'buster
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'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset. Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
Not that I particularly care about seeing Kamigawa again, but in the interest of seeing more Ninjas and Samurai, I'd take a shared revisit over no revisit at all.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Well, really, the better point for Manite's 'dip your toe in' approach is the very fact that this is likely the only way that WotC can gain the data to overturn their current data.
Whether MaRo is killing any idea of Kamigawa's return or not (I believe not--the decision seems higher up or in another department), the fact is that WotC is going to believe their own data and research over others', as they should.
So before they risk another HUGE blowout like Kamigawa was before, they are likely to make it a plane in an Origins part, and then use market research--focused or not--to determine whether they could return to it for a set. Other less popular sets, like Ulgrotha and Lorwyn, would also likely get this treatment.
From a design perspective, I think the worst mechanic is Splice. It is hideously parasitic, and switching Splice from Splice onto Arcane to Splice onto Instants doesn't fix the issue. Well, it fixes the parasitic issue, yes, but it replaces it with a development nightmare. I would have to take a survey of the cards with Splice on them to be sure, but it's very likely that there are less than 5 that you could replace Arcane with Instant (or Sorcery) and not break them in half. As an example of a new card that would fundamentally change a few formats:
W
Instant
Gain 1 life.
Splice onto Arcane W
This would go right into sideboards of basically every burn deck ever, for the mirror, and do well. And the card is, outside of that arena, outright terrible. I challenge the people in this thread who want Splice onto Instant/Sorcery (or something else not parasitic) to come up with a few cards that wouldn't break in half under the slightest strain.
Also, for people who want Neo-Kamigawa, what kind of conflict would you expect in the plane now? The very few things that Kamigawa did right the first time actually hurt this. For all the terrible mechanical development in the block--and, jeez, it was terrible--the PLOT was stellar. What could be more interesting than the spiritual caretakers of the plane (the Spirits) turning against the plane for entirely justified reasons? After that... what's your plot for the return that has conflict on a more or less planar scale that isn't... the previous story?
I have a degree in Japanese language and culture. I love basically everything about the culture and its history and traditions. And I did indeed buy the crap out of Kamigawa when it came out, at least compared to similar buying patterns at the time. But that doesn't change the fact that, objectively, it was a very weak block not just from a mechanical perspective but also a saleability perspective.
I do agree with those in this thread who identify the flavor of the plane as much more important than the mechanics... but Bushido does have issues, and not just the name (outside of the set). It stalled combat a lot. The Kitsune Blademaster, in particular, was annoying in the extreme, as a 3/3 First Strike really slows down combat. Perhaps with stronger creatures these days it would not be as bad, but it's something to keep in mind.
Finally, my own take on Kamigawa is that the plane wouldn't be Kamigawa without the duality of the Spirits and non-Spirits existing. It would be very exciting to see an iteration of the plane where the spirits work with rather than against the mortals, but it's difficult to picture exactly what that would look like.
Well, really, the better point for Manite's 'dip your toe in' approach is the very fact that this is likely the only way that WotC can gain the data to overturn their current data.
Whether MaRo is killing any idea of Kamigawa's return or not (I believe not--the decision seems higher up or in another department), the fact is that WotC is going to believe their own data and research over others', as they should.
So before they risk another HUGE blowout like Kamigawa was before, they are likely to make it a plane in an Origins part, and then use market research--focused or not--to determine whether they could return to it for a set. Other less popular sets, like Ulgrotha and Lorwyn, would also likely get this treatment.
From a design perspective, I think the worst mechanic is Splice. It is hideously parasitic, and switching Splice from Splice onto Arcane to Splice onto Instants doesn't fix the issue. Well, it fixes the parasitic issue, yes, but it replaces it with a development nightmare. I would have to take a survey of the cards with Splice on them to be sure, but it's very likely that there are less than 5 that you could replace Arcane with Instant (or Sorcery) and not break them in half. As an example of a new card that would fundamentally change a few formats:
W
Instant
Gain 1 life.
Splice onto Arcane W
This would go right into sideboards of basically every burn deck ever, for the mirror, and do well. And the card is, outside of that arena, outright terrible. I challenge the people in this thread who want Splice onto Instant/Sorcery (or something else not parasitic) to come up with a few cards that wouldn't break in half under the slightest strain.
Also, for people who want Neo-Kamigawa, what kind of conflict would you expect in the plane now? The very few things that Kamigawa did right the first time actually hurt this. For all the terrible mechanical development in the block--and, jeez, it was terrible--the PLOT was stellar. What could be more interesting than the spiritual caretakers of the plane (the Spirits) turning against the plane for entirely justified reasons? After that... what's your plot for the return that has conflict on a more or less planar scale that isn't... the previous story?
I have a degree in Japanese language and culture. I love basically everything about the culture and its history and traditions. And I did indeed buy the crap out of Kamigawa when it came out, at least compared to similar buying patterns at the time. But that doesn't change the fact that, objectively, it was a very weak block not just from a mechanical perspective but also a saleability perspective.
I do agree with those in this thread who identify the flavor of the plane as much more important than the mechanics... but Bushido does have issues, and not just the name (outside of the set). It stalled combat a lot. The Kitsune Blademaster, in particular, was annoying in the extreme, as a 3/3 First Strike really slows down combat. Perhaps with stronger creatures these days it would not be as bad, but it's something to keep in mind.
Finally, my own take on Kamigawa is that the plane wouldn't be Kamigawa without the duality of the Spirits and non-Spirits existing. It would be very exciting to see an iteration of the plane where the spirits work with rather than against the mortals, but it's difficult to picture exactly what that would look like.
If WotC will ever decide to bring back splice, it will not be splice onto arcane, but rather as it was originally concepted "Splice onto Instant" and "Splice onto Sorcery."
Recent data (as in from the two latest commander sets) has increased the chance of a return to Kamigawa, it is still highly unlikely, but it is an improvement.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
The problem was not so much the Splice part but rather the cost associated with Arcane spells themselves, as they tend to be a bit more costly or underperforming than non-Arcane spells. Glacial Ray for example.
Splice itself (as a concept) is perfectly fine. It was its original engine components that spoiled the mood.
'buster
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'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset. Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
The problem was not so much the Splice part but rather the cost associated with Arcane spells themselves, as they tend to be a bit more costly or underperforming than non-Arcane spells. Glacial Ray for example.
Splice itself (as a concept) is perfectly fine. It was its original engine components that spoiled the mood.
'buster
The splice spells were costed fine. Compare Glacial Ray to Magma Jet, no the problem was that the mechanic got nerfed hard by being Splice onto Arcane instead of Splice onto Instant or Splice onto Sorcery, which made it incredibly parasitic (a problem many of the mechanics of the block had).
The block wasn't helped by most of the cards being overcosted compared to their effect. I've mentioned it elsewhere, but if they had removed 1 or 2 colorless mana from the casting cost of a lot of the spells (not all), it would have made for a more competitive and playable block. The other big issue was that they had overloaded on the tribes and legendary permanents, all the while producing nearly no cards that cared about the legendary theme in common and uncommon. Innistrad did tribal well, and Dominaria has done the legendary theme well. At least they learned their lessons with those problems.
As for the earlier mentioned mechanics, most of them were just plain bad (I mean, Sweep, come on). The standouts for good mechanics however were Bushido (simple and flavorful) and Ninjutsu (slightly more complex, but very flavorful and works well with cards outside of block). The rest were mediocre to just plain bad. Of them, Offering got tweaked and put into Eldritch Moon as Emerge to a much better reception, and Splice can be saved as well. The rest? Not so much (seriously, sweep is bad, and WotC should feel bad for creating it, and they do).
Kamigawa was worse than Masques block, and that is quite the achievement. It feels like they panicked after the complete brokeness of Mirrodin, and pulled to hard in the opposite direction. If it weren't for Commander, the block would be more reviled than Homelands and Fallen Empires (which I still say are good sets, just overprinted).
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
If they ever go back to Kamigawa, I hope the card power level would be increased to match today's standards. Please don't make too many underpowered / overcosted cards.
The problem was not so much the Splice part but rather the cost associated with Arcane spells themselves, as they tend to be a bit more costly or underperforming than non-Arcane spells. Glacial Ray for example.
Splice itself (as a concept) is perfectly fine. It was its original engine components that spoiled the mood.
'buster
The splice spells were costed fine. Compare Glacial Ray to Magma Jet, no the problem was that the mechanic got nerfed hard by being Splice onto Arcane instead of Splice onto Instant or Splice onto Sorcery, which made it incredibly parasitic (a problem many of the mechanics of the block had).
The block wasn't helped by most of the cards being overcosted compared to their effect. I've mentioned it elsewhere, but if they had removed 1 or 2 colorless mana from the casting cost of a lot of the spells (not all), it would have made for a more competitive and playable block. The other big issue was that they had overloaded on the tribes and legendary permanents, all the while producing nearly no cards that cared about the legendary theme in common and uncommon. Innistrad did tribal well, and Dominaria has done the legendary theme well. At least they learned their lessons with those problems.
As for the earlier mentioned mechanics, most of them were just plain bad (I mean, Sweep, come on). The standouts for good mechanics however were Bushido (simple and flavorful) and Ninjutsu (slightly more complex, but very flavorful and works well with cards outside of block). The rest were mediocre to just plain bad. Of them, Offering got tweaked and put into Eldritch Moon as Emerge to a much better reception, and Splice can be saved as well. The rest? Not so much (seriously, sweep is bad, and WotC should feel bad for creating it, and they do).
Kamigawa was worse than Masques block, and that is quite the achievement. It feels like they panicked after the complete brokeness of Mirrodin, and pulled to hard in the opposite direction. If it weren't for Commander, the block would be more reviled than Homelands and Fallen Empires (which I still say are good sets, just overprinted).
That's what I meant: The cost of arcane spells in general--not Splice--was the problem. Splice itself as an idea is fine. It was the card it was tied to that hurt (arcane). Splicing onto instants or sorceries would be acceptable in and of themselves.
Sweep isn't as bad as one would think. Returning lands to hands can be beneficial especially when paired with Landfall and Retrace, but none of that was around so Sweep was thus hindered tremendously. The effects that Sweep gave us were less than stellar but the concept is fine if paired with another theme that complements it. Soul Shift was supposed to work with Soulcraft (Thief of Hope) but it failed miserably.
It's a shame Kamigawa was more of a reactionary set and its placement in between two of the most popular and impactful blocks in Magic's history didn't help. I'm sure that if they redid it properly it would be better received. Same way Masques was plagued by its placement in between Urza's Saga and Invasion.
If Kamigawa were to be remade/revisited I don't think they could do any worse.
'buster
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'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset. Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
But class mechanics ought to be a regular feature if you ask me regardless of which setting they're in. It might flood the pool with mechanics but it would keep the flavour and environment very much alive and diversified.
'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Whether MaRo is killing any idea of Kamigawa's return or not (I believe not--the decision seems higher up or in another department), the fact is that WotC is going to believe their own data and research over others', as they should.
So before they risk another HUGE blowout like Kamigawa was before, they are likely to make it a plane in an Origins part, and then use market research--focused or not--to determine whether they could return to it for a set. Other less popular sets, like Ulgrotha and Lorwyn, would also likely get this treatment.
From a design perspective, I think the worst mechanic is Splice. It is hideously parasitic, and switching Splice from Splice onto Arcane to Splice onto Instants doesn't fix the issue. Well, it fixes the parasitic issue, yes, but it replaces it with a development nightmare. I would have to take a survey of the cards with Splice on them to be sure, but it's very likely that there are less than 5 that you could replace Arcane with Instant (or Sorcery) and not break them in half. As an example of a new card that would fundamentally change a few formats:
W
Instant
Gain 1 life.
Splice onto Arcane W
This would go right into sideboards of basically every burn deck ever, for the mirror, and do well. And the card is, outside of that arena, outright terrible. I challenge the people in this thread who want Splice onto Instant/Sorcery (or something else not parasitic) to come up with a few cards that wouldn't break in half under the slightest strain.
Also, for people who want Neo-Kamigawa, what kind of conflict would you expect in the plane now? The very few things that Kamigawa did right the first time actually hurt this. For all the terrible mechanical development in the block--and, jeez, it was terrible--the PLOT was stellar. What could be more interesting than the spiritual caretakers of the plane (the Spirits) turning against the plane for entirely justified reasons? After that... what's your plot for the return that has conflict on a more or less planar scale that isn't... the previous story?
I have a degree in Japanese language and culture. I love basically everything about the culture and its history and traditions. And I did indeed buy the crap out of Kamigawa when it came out, at least compared to similar buying patterns at the time. But that doesn't change the fact that, objectively, it was a very weak block not just from a mechanical perspective but also a saleability perspective.
I do agree with those in this thread who identify the flavor of the plane as much more important than the mechanics... but Bushido does have issues, and not just the name (outside of the set). It stalled combat a lot. The Kitsune Blademaster, in particular, was annoying in the extreme, as a 3/3 First Strike really slows down combat. Perhaps with stronger creatures these days it would not be as bad, but it's something to keep in mind.
Finally, my own take on Kamigawa is that the plane wouldn't be Kamigawa without the duality of the Spirits and non-Spirits existing. It would be very exciting to see an iteration of the plane where the spirits work with rather than against the mortals, but it's difficult to picture exactly what that would look like.
Whether MaRo is killing any idea of Kamigawa's return or not (I believe not--the decision seems higher up or in another department), the fact is that WotC is going to believe their own data and research over others', as they should.
So before they risk another HUGE blowout like Kamigawa was before, they are likely to make it a plane in an Origins part, and then use market research--focused or not--to determine whether they could return to it for a set. Other less popular sets, like Ulgrotha and Lorwyn, would also likely get this treatment.
From a design perspective, I think the worst mechanic is Splice. It is hideously parasitic, and switching Splice from Splice onto Arcane to Splice onto Instants doesn't fix the issue. Well, it fixes the parasitic issue, yes, but it replaces it with a development nightmare. I would have to take a survey of the cards with Splice on them to be sure, but it's very likely that there are less than 5 that you could replace Arcane with Instant (or Sorcery) and not break them in half. As an example of a new card that would fundamentally change a few formats:
W
Instant
Gain 1 life.
Splice onto Arcane W
This would go right into sideboards of basically every burn deck ever, for the mirror, and do well. And the card is, outside of that arena, outright terrible. I challenge the people in this thread who want Splice onto Instant/Sorcery (or something else not parasitic) to come up with a few cards that wouldn't break in half under the slightest strain.
Also, for people who want Neo-Kamigawa, what kind of conflict would you expect in the plane now? The very few things that Kamigawa did right the first time actually hurt this. For all the terrible mechanical development in the block--and, jeez, it was terrible--the PLOT was stellar. What could be more interesting than the spiritual caretakers of the plane (the Spirits) turning against the plane for entirely justified reasons? After that... what's your plot for the return that has conflict on a more or less planar scale that isn't... the previous story?
I have a degree in Japanese language and culture. I love basically everything about the culture and its history and traditions. And I did indeed buy the crap out of Kamigawa when it came out, at least compared to similar buying patterns at the time. But that doesn't change the fact that, objectively, it was a very weak block not just from a mechanical perspective but also a saleability perspective.
I do agree with those in this thread who identify the flavor of the plane as much more important than the mechanics... but Bushido does have issues, and not just the name (outside of the set). It stalled combat a lot. The Kitsune Blademaster, in particular, was annoying in the extreme, as a 3/3 First Strike really slows down combat. Perhaps with stronger creatures these days it would not be as bad, but it's something to keep in mind.
Finally, my own take on Kamigawa is that the plane wouldn't be Kamigawa without the duality of the Spirits and non-Spirits existing. It would be very exciting to see an iteration of the plane where the spirits work with rather than against the mortals, but it's difficult to picture exactly what that would look like.
Recent data (as in from the two latest commander sets) has increased the chance of a return to Kamigawa, it is still highly unlikely, but it is an improvement.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Splice itself (as a concept) is perfectly fine. It was its original engine components that spoiled the mood.
'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
The splice spells were costed fine. Compare Glacial Ray to Magma Jet, no the problem was that the mechanic got nerfed hard by being Splice onto Arcane instead of Splice onto Instant or Splice onto Sorcery, which made it incredibly parasitic (a problem many of the mechanics of the block had).
The block wasn't helped by most of the cards being overcosted compared to their effect. I've mentioned it elsewhere, but if they had removed 1 or 2 colorless mana from the casting cost of a lot of the spells (not all), it would have made for a more competitive and playable block. The other big issue was that they had overloaded on the tribes and legendary permanents, all the while producing nearly no cards that cared about the legendary theme in common and uncommon. Innistrad did tribal well, and Dominaria has done the legendary theme well. At least they learned their lessons with those problems.
As for the earlier mentioned mechanics, most of them were just plain bad (I mean, Sweep, come on). The standouts for good mechanics however were Bushido (simple and flavorful) and Ninjutsu (slightly more complex, but very flavorful and works well with cards outside of block). The rest were mediocre to just plain bad. Of them, Offering got tweaked and put into Eldritch Moon as Emerge to a much better reception, and Splice can be saved as well. The rest? Not so much (seriously, sweep is bad, and WotC should feel bad for creating it, and they do).
Kamigawa was worse than Masques block, and that is quite the achievement. It feels like they panicked after the complete brokeness of Mirrodin, and pulled to hard in the opposite direction. If it weren't for Commander, the block would be more reviled than Homelands and Fallen Empires (which I still say are good sets, just overprinted).
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
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That's what I meant: The cost of arcane spells in general--not Splice--was the problem. Splice itself as an idea is fine. It was the card it was tied to that hurt (arcane). Splicing onto instants or sorceries would be acceptable in and of themselves.
Sweep isn't as bad as one would think. Returning lands to hands can be beneficial especially when paired with Landfall and Retrace, but none of that was around so Sweep was thus hindered tremendously. The effects that Sweep gave us were less than stellar but the concept is fine if paired with another theme that complements it. Soul Shift was supposed to work with Soulcraft (Thief of Hope) but it failed miserably.
It's a shame Kamigawa was more of a reactionary set and its placement in between two of the most popular and impactful blocks in Magic's history didn't help. I'm sure that if they redid it properly it would be better received. Same way Masques was plagued by its placement in between Urza's Saga and Invasion.
If Kamigawa were to be remade/revisited I don't think they could do any worse.
'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.