Maro asked on his Twitter chat what people thought of the idea of snow-covered duals. This could mean that Dev. is planning to revisit the Snow mechanic at some point in a future set. They could also be testing the water for some supplemental product inclusion as a way to elude the RL by making a new dual cycle with some drawback related to the snow mechanic.
I think a return of snow in standard would be really awesome. There is so much design space for that mechanic that hasn't been exploited yet. Also, snow duals could work if the drawback is that it etbt unless you control X other snow permanents. Wouldn't be that broken, as you'd need to either run a lot of snow-covered basics to make them work properly or have a critical number of non-land snow permanent in your deck.
What is your thoughts?
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"De potentia juvenis somniabat, nunc de Mundo somniat..."
The snow taplands - snaplands, if you will, and I hope you do - were a great cycle at uncommon. Snow = ETBT just felt right - they were snowed over so the mana has to thaw first.
They're not exactly power cards, however; a very simple cycle of stronger snow duals would be welcome. Maybe "ETBT unless you control a nonland snow permanent," possibly with basic land types.
All I got to say is that this tweet caused all sorts of people to try and buyout snow lands as crazy people are trying desperately to spike the price on something printed to the point of insanity. It's like trying to buyout a mountain... made of snow lands...
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Screw that just print ABUR duals with snow covered, hell name them Snow-Covered Bayou, Swamp-Forest. Text counts as a Bayou. Dare your WOTC the set would set all kinds of records for packs opened. Help Legacy out, the RL be damned.
I think that something along the lines of the Tango would work, like:
Frigid Grassland
Snow Land - Plains Forest
( : Add W or G to your mana pool.)
Frigid Grassland enters the battlefield tapped unless you control at least 3 other snow permanents.
Not overly powerful, need a certain dedication to snow to work, either via basic lands or other permanent. Would make a lot of people happy, including me
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"De potentia juvenis somniabat, nunc de Mundo somniat..."
I think that something along the lines of the Tango would work, like:
Frigid Grassland
Snow Land - Plains Forest
( : Add W or G to your mana pool.)
Frigid Grassland enters the battlefield tapped unless you control at least 3 other snow permanents.
Not overly powerful, need a certain dedication to snow to work, either via basic lands or other permanent. Would make a lot of people happy, including me
I would love this.
We are long overdue for the return of Snow and for a Winter World that features it.
I'd love a Christmas themed plane. Snowy angels, elves, icy things, pretty magical lights, auroras, cold starry nights, people huddled near fires, snowy peaks basically looking like winter wonderland Switzerland. Cottages. You know, basically North Pole tropes. It doesn't have to be too explicitly Christmas, but in the same sense of Innistrad being Halloween World to an extent.
I agree that there is so much design space to play with for a 'snow' theme set, and the return would be a throwback to older formats. The artwork of the Khans block temur cards were really thematic to ice age, maybe a return to that block could feature snow lands.
I agree that there is so much design space to play with for a 'snow' theme set, and the return would be a throwback to older formats. The artwork of the Khans block temur cards were really thematic to ice age, maybe a return to that block could feature snow lands.
When I first saw the artworks for KTK, I thought it would be the block Snow returned. Unfortunately, I was wrong
As for the design space:
Thermal Shock R
Snow Instant
Thermal Shock deals 2 damages to target non-snow creature or player. If a snow creature is targeted this way, Thermal Shock deals 3 damages to it instead.
Wording may be off, but that spell would be great for limited.
Frostburn 1U
Snow Enchantment - Aura
Enchant non-snow creature.
Tap enchanted creature. It doesn't untap during it controller's untap step unless he or she sacrifice a snow permanent he or she controls.
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"De potentia juvenis somniabat, nunc de Mundo somniat..."
Once we got the Wastes basic lands it's been in my head that we would have a return to the snow mechanic. At some point, the idea of printing snow-covered wastes is going to be in the heads of the players as well as R&D. It also fits in if we ever go back to Zendikar for it to be undergoing an Ice Age. After all the events of the Brothers' War were the cause of the Ice Age and so it isn't that big of a leap for Eldrazi ravaging the world could be enough to cause the same effect. As from the mechanic point of view, the only way we will get snow-covered wastes is if the next snow set is on Zendikar. Sure not all people would want snow-covered wastes, but people would want full art snow-covered basic lands. You know how pimp those would be? Sure, some of you might be all, "But the Eldrazi are gone why would they need to give us Wastes again?" Well, once the Eldrazi were gone those wastes are still there devoid of colored mana and over time mages would learn to tap into that and wield colorless magic.
I wouldn't mind a simple cycle of enemy snow taps. For that matter, I'd like a full cycle of ten snow taps. They'd have to print a new cycle of ally snowtaps though as Tresserhorn Sinks means the original cycle can only be fully reprinted on Dominaria, and they won't want to create imbalance by giving only BR a new snow tap.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
I think it's probably referring to duals without a drawback. Snow is a fine type, though, even if it is kind of parasitic on the level of tribal cards.
After reading that thread, I was a bit shocked that maro didn't seem to understand the importance of having fetchable duals that can enter untapped (and without getting shocked) in legacy and vintage. He knows those game's can end before turn 3 right?
Uhhhh, did you guys even read the twitter thread? This isn't about snow basics, this is about snow underground sea with the same text everywhere as underground sea except with the supertype snow. Yes, snow duals fix legacys biggest problem because the landbase has always been the most expensive part of a legacy deck. Sure it doesn't 100% fix legacy seeing as how lion's eye diamond is on the reserved list and storm is an archetype in legacy, but it's far, far better than where legacy currently stands in terms of accessibility.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Uhhhh, did you guys even read the twitter thread? This isn't about snow basics, this is about snow underground sea with the same text everywhere as underground sea except with the supertype snow. Yes, snow duals fix legacys biggest problem because the landbase has always been the most expensive part of a legacy deck. Sure it doesn't 100% fix legacy seeing as how lion's eye diamond is on the reserved list and storm is an archetype in legacy, but it's far, far better than where legacy currently stands in terms of accessibility.
They can't really print a snow dual land, though. If it's too similar to the original it runs afoul of the reserve list, so the closest thing they could print would be something like a legendary land that sort of acts like a Bayou, but isn't a bayou on power level. Basically, the damage the reserve list has done to legacy can not be undone without them abolishing the reserve list, which would probably send more than one investor to the dark corner of their room where they will have a complete meltdown and curl into a fetal position. Abolishing the reserve list would tank the price on alpha and beta cards so hard that we're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of old cards losing over half their value and not abolishing it, but dancing around it could do similar harm. I'm not really sure how it would impact sealed boxes, though. I think investors who invested in antiquities sealed booster boxes are probably safe to a degree.
Edit: Also I did read the tweet. Snow lands are just fun to talk about because ice age rocked.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Uhhhh, did you guys even read the twitter thread? This isn't about snow basics, this is about snow underground sea with the same text everywhere as underground sea except with the supertype snow. Yes, snow duals fix legacys biggest problem because the landbase has always been the most expensive part of a legacy deck. Sure it doesn't 100% fix legacy seeing as how lion's eye diamond is on the reserved list and storm is an archetype in legacy, but it's far, far better than where legacy currently stands in terms of accessibility.
They can't really print a snow dual land, though. If it's too similar to the original it runs afoul of the reserve list, so the closest thing they could print would be something like a legendary land that sort of acts like a Bayou, but isn't a bayou on power level. Basically, the damage the reserve list has done to legacy can not be undone without them abolishing the reserve list, which would probably send more than one investor to the dark corner of their room where they will have a complete meltdown and curl into a fetal position. Abolishing the reserve list would tank the price on alpha and beta cards so hard that we're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of old cards losing over half their value and not abolishing it, but dancing around it could do similar harm. I'm not really sure how it would impact sealed boxes, though. I think investors who invested in antiquities sealed booster boxes are probably safe to a degree.
Edit: Also I did read the tweet. Snow lands are just fun to talk about because ice age rocked.
Actually, they *can* print snow-duals with basic land types and no drawback, because making them snow makes them mechanically different from the originals. Which is all that matters for the RL. This is the same reason that Sky Spirit is perfectly fine, by changing one mana symbol and changing the name they where able to print a card that is shockingly similar to Thunder Spirit because it is mechanically different because of that one mana symbol. The snow supertype changes the mechanics of the mana produced by a snow land, making it mechanically distinct from the same dual without the supertype.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
Krishnath is correct. Making a snow dual does make it functionally different as it can activate rimescale dragon and such. Also if they couldn't do it without violating the RL, why did MaRo even pose the question in regards to eternal formats if they can't print snow duals when they can, they just haven't done so.
Also, please don't spread fallacies about alpha and beta cards tanking due to reprints. If that was the case why can't I go out and buy alpha shivan dragon, birds of paradise, etc. etc. for like $20 apiece. Sealed boxes like antiquities and beta are never tanking because they are one of the most scarce things in the market. Now revised duals would tank if they printed snow duals, but that's because revised cards are ******* ugly and not collectors items' like beta and alpha.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Reserved cards will never be printed again in a functionally identical form. A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness.
If the only difference between ABUR duals and the theoretical snow duals is adding a supertype, the current policy defines them as functionally identical regardless of any mechanical changes to gameplay. It certainly wouldn't be the first time WotC has changed a public stance on something if they did decide they wanted snow duals, but there hasn't been any indication they're going to loosen the reserved list and snow duals do violate their current definition. Incidentally, that knocks out legendary duals as a possibility under the current policy as well.
That said, I would be completely behind snow duals or whatever they did end up with and I've got plenty of revised duals. Making legacy more accessible to more people seems like something that most of the legacy community can get behind. It wouldn't open up every deck to everyone interested, but it's significantly more open than what we have now.
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[Pr]Jaya | Estrid | A rotating cast of decks built out of my box.
Reserved cards will never be printed again in a functionally identical form. A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness.
If the only difference between ABUR duals and the theoretical snow duals is adding a supertype, the current policy defines them as functionally identical regardless of any mechanical changes to gameplay. It certainly wouldn't be the first time WotC has changed a public stance on something if they did decide they wanted snow duals, but there hasn't been any indication they're going to loosen the reserved list and snow duals do violate their current definition. Incidentally, that knocks out legendary duals as a possibility under the current policy as well.
That said, I would be completely behind snow duals or whatever they did end up with and I've got plenty of revised duals. Making legacy more accessible to more people seems like something that most of the legacy community can get behind. It wouldn't open up every deck to everyone interested, but it's significantly more open than what we have now.
That is well and fine, except for one small thing: Adding the snow type changes its abilities due to the inherent nature of snow mana. Because the mana produced by the proposed snow duals can be used to activate abilities that require snow-mana ( S ) specifically, they are functionally different from a similar dual land that is not snow.
Edit: Just to clarify, the Legendary Supertype does not change the nature of a cards abilities, the Snow Supertype however alters the way mana production functions by giving it a new and additional characteristic. (Thank you Coldsnap!).
I think a return of snow in standard would be really awesome. There is so much design space for that mechanic that hasn't been exploited yet. Also, snow duals could work if the drawback is that it etbt unless you control X other snow permanents. Wouldn't be that broken, as you'd need to either run a lot of snow-covered basics to make them work properly or have a critical number of non-land snow permanent in your deck.
What is your thoughts?
They're not exactly power cards, however; a very simple cycle of stronger snow duals would be welcome. Maybe "ETBT unless you control a nonland snow permanent," possibly with basic land types.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Also if they do snow duals they better be legit duallands or don't even bother.
Frigid Grassland
Snow Land - Plains Forest
( : Add W or G to your mana pool.)
Frigid Grassland enters the battlefield tapped unless you control at least 3 other snow permanents.
Not overly powerful, need a certain dedication to snow to work, either via basic lands or other permanent. Would make a lot of people happy, including me
Gotta do something with that Desert land subtype, eh?
We are long overdue for the return of Snow and for a Winter World that features it.
I'd love a Christmas themed plane. Snowy angels, elves, icy things, pretty magical lights, auroras, cold starry nights, people huddled near fires, snowy peaks basically looking like winter wonderland Switzerland. Cottages. You know, basically North Pole tropes. It doesn't have to be too explicitly Christmas, but in the same sense of Innistrad being Halloween World to an extent.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
When I first saw the artworks for KTK, I thought it would be the block Snow returned. Unfortunately, I was wrong
As for the design space:
Thermal Shock R
Snow Instant
Thermal Shock deals 2 damages to target non-snow creature or player. If a snow creature is targeted this way, Thermal Shock deals 3 damages to it instead.
Wording may be off, but that spell would be great for limited.
Frostburn 1U
Snow Enchantment - Aura
Enchant non-snow creature.
Tap enchanted creature. It doesn't untap during it controller's untap step unless he or she sacrifice a snow permanent he or she controls.
Hey Trolls, I write magic articles. If you want something to bash on check them out here. http://www.examiner.com/user-jeffrey-carmichael
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Currently Playing:
Retired
They can't really print a snow dual land, though. If it's too similar to the original it runs afoul of the reserve list, so the closest thing they could print would be something like a legendary land that sort of acts like a Bayou, but isn't a bayou on power level. Basically, the damage the reserve list has done to legacy can not be undone without them abolishing the reserve list, which would probably send more than one investor to the dark corner of their room where they will have a complete meltdown and curl into a fetal position. Abolishing the reserve list would tank the price on alpha and beta cards so hard that we're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of old cards losing over half their value and not abolishing it, but dancing around it could do similar harm. I'm not really sure how it would impact sealed boxes, though. I think investors who invested in antiquities sealed booster boxes are probably safe to a degree.
Edit: Also I did read the tweet. Snow lands are just fun to talk about because ice age rocked.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Actually, they *can* print snow-duals with basic land types and no drawback, because making them snow makes them mechanically different from the originals. Which is all that matters for the RL. This is the same reason that Sky Spirit is perfectly fine, by changing one mana symbol and changing the name they where able to print a card that is shockingly similar to Thunder Spirit because it is mechanically different because of that one mana symbol. The snow supertype changes the mechanics of the mana produced by a snow land, making it mechanically distinct from the same dual without the supertype.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Also, please don't spread fallacies about alpha and beta cards tanking due to reprints. If that was the case why can't I go out and buy alpha shivan dragon, birds of paradise, etc. etc. for like $20 apiece. Sealed boxes like antiquities and beta are never tanking because they are one of the most scarce things in the market. Now revised duals would tank if they printed snow duals, but that's because revised cards are ******* ugly and not collectors items' like beta and alpha.
Currently Playing:
Retired
That said, I would be completely behind snow duals or whatever they did end up with and I've got plenty of revised duals. Making legacy more accessible to more people seems like something that most of the legacy community can get behind. It wouldn't open up every deck to everyone interested, but it's significantly more open than what we have now.
Make Legacy great again.
That is well and fine, except for one small thing: Adding the snow type changes its abilities due to the inherent nature of snow mana. Because the mana produced by the proposed snow duals can be used to activate abilities that require snow-mana ( S ) specifically, they are functionally different from a similar dual land that is not snow.
Edit: Just to clarify, the Legendary Supertype does not change the nature of a cards abilities, the Snow Supertype however alters the way mana production functions by giving it a new and additional characteristic. (Thank you Coldsnap!).
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.