No deck even play 4 copies of duals in Legacy and Vintage since Fetches were printed, guys please don't talk about this as it is a real thing when you could just look 2 list from any tournament or follow the format to know it's a non-issue.
Reanimator - 4 Underground Seas
UW Miracles - 4 Tundra
RUG - 4 Tropical Island, 4 Volcanic Island.
Yeah, there are a lot of Legacy decks that run 4 of each bro.:rolleyes:
Anyways, on topic - I would absolutely LOVE to see them do this. It has a big drawback so people seriously wanting to get into the format would be unable to play them in many of the viable decks and it would allow some combo and several fringe decks to actually see play and would dramatically increase people able to play in various situations. Love the idea all around.
Edit: Granted, I don't see this actually happening... it's wishful thinking I imagine.
My only issue with Legendary duals is - the speculation is entirely baseless and has the same amount of evidence to support it as does adding a 6th color in Purple.
All we know is that Theros is giving us some kind of 2-color producing lands.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Old enough to know better, much too young to care.
Reanimator - 4 Underground Seas
UW Miracles - 4 Tundra
RUG - 4 Tropical Island, 4 Volcanic Island.
Yeah, there are a lot of Legacy decks that run 4 of each bro.:rolleyes:
Anyways, on topic - I would absolutely LOVE to see them do this. It has a big drawback so people seriously wanting to get into the format would be unable to play them in many of the viable decks and it would allow some combo and several fringe decks to actually see play and would dramatically increase people able to play in various situations. Love the idea all around.
Edit: Granted, I don't see this actually happening... it's wishful thinking I imagine.
Um. No? I've definitely seen four underground sea in reanimator but the others are wrong.
Miracles likes basic lands, so most are more likely to run three or even two.
RUG running four and four? No way. It's almost always 8 fetches, four wastes, and three of each dual. If the RUG delver deck feels particularly mana hungry, they might go for a fourth trop, but I can't see them going to a fifth. Unless you mean another RUG deck but I don't know which you're referring to. Waterfalls maybe?
Anyways, even for the few decks that would want a fifth dual, that fifth dual wont exactly break the format. Not even close.
Um. No? I've definitely seen four underground sea in reanimator but the others are wrong.
Miracles likes basic lands, so most are more likely to run three or even two.
RUG running four and four? No way. It's almost always 8 fetches, four wastes, and three of each dual. If the RUG delver deck feels particularly mana hungry, they might go for a fourth trop, but I can't see them going to a fifth. Unless you mean another RUG deck but I don't know which you're referring to. Waterfalls maybe?
Anyways, even for the few decks that would want a fifth dual, that fifth dual wont exactly break the format. Not even close.
I wasn't saying these decks want to run 5 of each dual, I was saying that there are decks that require the non-legendary lands in order to be optimal and viable. If you haven't been following the thread then my post would seem random and out of nowhere, I was referencing the discussion I quoted.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Decks:
Modern
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Legacy
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
I wasn't saying these decks want to run 5 of each dual, I was saying that there are decks that require the non-legendary lands in order to be optimal and viable. If you haven't been following the thread then my post would seem random and out of nowhere, I was referencing the discussion I quoted.
My last two sentences weren't directed at you. They were just a general statement and meant to be part of the thread discussion.
The beginning was. I quoted you because you said that a lot of decks run four duals, but two of the three decks you listed as examples don't even do so.
Reanimator - 4 Underground Seas
UW Miracles - 4 Tundra
RUG - 4 Tropical Island, 4 Volcanic Island.
Yeah, there are a lot of Legacy decks that run 4 of each bro.:rolleyes:
Anyways, on topic - I would absolutely LOVE to see them do this. It has a big drawback so people seriously wanting to get into the format would be unable to play them in many of the viable decks and it would allow some combo and several fringe decks to actually see play and would dramatically increase people able to play in various situations. Love the idea all around.
Edit: Granted, I don't see this actually happening... it's wishful thinking I imagine.
Why you're lying? RUG and UW miracles don't run 4 copies of a dual.
RUG never does, UW almost never does (as they almost always splash a third color or run things like Oboro, Cloud Colonnade or other things), and you're right that reanimator plays 4 duals, but that's because of reanimate + griselbrand that make every single life point from a fetch extremely relevant, moreso than the ability to shuffle back from BS.
If you actually played the format you'd know this. There's a reason not even pure GW maverick don't run 4 savannah, fetches are better (can fetch basics against Wastes if needed, can fetch Arbor, thin deck and put lands into graveyard for DRS etc...).
Lots of deck where? Seriously. It's not even a matter of lists, it's just a matter of power level. When you got fetches, it's just better to run those over duals most of the time barring rare cases like Reanimator where every single lifepoint could be worth 7 cards.
Legendary is a drawback. See the Kamigawa mono utility lands.
Plus, having our City of Brass pimp-slapping us every time we hit it up for mana isn't too cool either.
I suppose here are my questions for "Legendary Duals":
1.) Where is the flavor? I believe someone already eloquently stated that using the type purely as a way to detract from its power level is clunky and not very intuitive for players. Can you find flavor for ten legendary lands that only produce one or another? Maybe, but I have my doubts.
2.) Why? Really, this is my biggest question. When do they fit in, a standard environment the FFL's unborn children are playing in (I supposed I just asked two questions here, but you'll let it slide)? Between ten filters, ten shocks, ten Core/Innistrad duals, five fetches, and a plethora of other fixers, Modern has it covered pretty well there. I think you guys already hammered away at the legacy topic pretty well (I also don't think arguing the price of competitive deck is viable, seeing as the old joke of your lands being most of your cost is starting to find itself untrue).
I suppose they just don't make much sense to me, but I'll be gladly refuted on any of those points.
Im going out on a limb here but i feel like it is a move wizards would make. With the new legendary ruling Starting soon they can explore new legendary lands. In the wizards article that was floating around here a few weeks back, they hinted about wanting to do more legendary lands. At first i thought utility lands or Shinka, the Bloodsoaked Keep type cards, but now im leaning more towards legendary dual land design.
We obv just had RTR, seeing the reprint of shock lands. My guess is its not going to be the next block, Theros, not even in the fallowing set. Its going to be the block that rotates RTR outta standard.
These would never happen. Modern decks could run 1 of each relevant one and essentially push shocks out of the format. They would be fine for standard but OP in modern, and be even more mana fixing in legacy.
Plus, having our City of Brass pimp-slapping us every time we hit it up for mana isn't too cool either.
I suppose here are my questions for "Legendary Duals":
1.) Where is the flavor? I believe someone already eloquently stated that using the type purely as a way to detract from its power level is clunky and not very intuitive for players. Can you find flavor for ten legendary lands that only produce one or another? Maybe, but I have my doubts.
2.) Why? Really, this is my biggest question. When do they fit in, a standard environment the FFL's unborn children are playing in (I supposed I just asked two questions here, but you'll let it slide)? Between ten filters, ten shocks, ten Core/Innistrad duals, five fetches, and a plethora of other fixers, Modern has it covered pretty well there. I think you guys already hammered away at the legacy topic pretty well (I also don't think arguing the price of competitive deck is viable, seeing as the old joke of your lands being most of your cost is starting to find itself untrue).
I suppose they just don't make much sense to me, but I'll be gladly refuted on any of those points.
1) Where's the flavor on new slivers? On 4/7 female elves in robes? Many cards have ****ty flavors, lands with epic names like Tritan's Castle, Hanging Garden, City in the Sky etc... feel perfect in flavor terms to be legendary.
2) Modern would benefit from those. Sure, they would be always the first fetchable lands, but keep in mind that:
- players don't like to start at 17 life only to play lands
- aggro and combo would be slightly nerfed, while control would gain some more popularity. And isn't control in Modern currently heavily underrepresented? I mean, Mana leak has been cited as a strong answer in that format, really?
In term of fixing, they aren't better than shocks in a vacuum, they're better against aggro. Wouldn't modern like slightly better control decks? Asking because i don't play it.
-What if they printed legendary tri-color manlands that come into play tapped...imagine a tri color fixing manland that has a somewhat absurd activation cost to be like celestial colonnade on crack...
Wizards are probably going to do Murmuring Bosk variants. I can see this happen over those that get 2 lands types with only drawback being that it is legendary.
I would like to make a point I think most players don't think about. I know this thread is about Legeduals but I see Legacy has been brought up many times. Has anyone considered that WoTC doesn't care about Legacy? As a business what money does Wizards make off of Legacy? None. Everything sold for Legacy is all after market. SCG makes money off of it but does Wizards? Not even a single cent. Wizards is concerned with Modern and Standard as #1 priorities. Commander is just a niche product. I believe there is a very good chance now that the rule for Legends has changed we will see Legend duals. Thanks to the article from Stoddard, I hope most people are familiar with it, the duals in Theros will be worse than the shocks. Not necessarily worse but they will purposely be anti-synergistic with them. I don't believe this means they will be bad by any means. Wizards wants standard, at least for the next cycle, to be dual to mono-colored. No tri-color decks. At least not blatantly easy to make 3 color good stuff decks. Whatever the new duals will be though, I believe people will really like them. They will be new. I don't think we'll see Horizon Canopy reprints or any of the Future Sight duals in Theros. I could be wrong but that's just the way it seems if you read Stoddard.
I would like to make a point I think most players don't think about. I know this thread is about Legeduals but I see Legacy has been brought up many times. Has anyone considered that WoTC doesn't care about Legacy? As a business what money does Wizards make off of Legacy? None. Everything sold for Legacy is all after market. SCG makes money off of it but does Wizards? Not even a single cent. Wizards is concerned with Modern and Standard as #1 priorities. Commander is just a niche product. I believe there is a very good chance now that the rule for Legends has changed we will see Legend duals. Thanks to the article from Stoddard, I hope most people are familiar with it, the duals in Theros will be worse than the shocks. Not necessarily worse but they will purposely be anti-synergistic with them. I don't believe this means they will be bad by any means. Wizards wants standard, at least for the next cycle, to be dual to mono-colored. No tri-color decks. At least not blatantly easy to make 3 color good stuff decks. Whatever the new duals will be though, I believe people will really like them. They will be new. I don't think we'll see Horizon Canopy reprints or any of the Future Sight duals in Theros. I could be wrong but that's just the way it seems if you read Stoddard.
Where do you think all those JTMS come from? Legacy players drafts and buy singles like in every other formats, nowadays only stores really open packs.
WotC gain money from Legacy as any other formats. Especially because of the "retention" effect that act as a parachute for standard singles (and that's also a reason they made modern).
I don't think they will print a legendary land that only produce 2 different coloured mana. That defeats the point of it being legendary as that ability isn't special at all.
There are lots of legendary land out there but I think my favourite is flagstones of trokair which is a time spiral card. We know WotC have been looking at Time spiral for ideas for Theros. So it could happen. Not to mention it has lost power due to the legend change. Originaly when you play your 2nd one, both go to the grave and you get 2 new plains. You could have 3 mana in turn 2 in a monowhite deck. Now however you have to keep one and so your deck doesn't thin out of land as quickly as before.
If they do a cycle of flagstones I will be extremely happy.
The other land that could be done is a cycle of nimbus maze or grove of burn willows. Both cards are harder to use early on. Grove gives your opponent life and with the new white enchantments could win them the game. Or you have to wait until you have both types of land before your nimbus maze can be of full use. Making them both slower then shocklands.
You could never get 3 mana on T2 with flagstones, and they're better now with the new legend rule, not worse, because you don't lose mana the turn you play 2. They're essentially painless fetches with 0 drawbacks, except PoP i guess.
If that's the case, then there's no legendary dual lands that will be printed, because that will also make tri-color easier.
It will make tri-color much, much worse than taplands, because running more than 2 of any copy would be terrible, and even 2 is bad in any non-aggro deck.
That said, I believe it unlikely we will see legendary duals, no matter how much I would love to see them for legacy and modern.
Turn 1 play Flagstones
Turn 2 tap Flagstones (one W in air)
Play Flagstones, causing you to sack both and replace them with untapped plains.
Tap both new plains (3 W in air).
Suck it.
Yes you can still do it but not as cool.
Everything is the same but sac the already tapped one.
The drawback with new legends rule is it doesnt shave the land from your deck as much.
Read flagstones of trokair very closely. Notice that tapped clause at the end of the fetch.
Turn 1 play Flagstones
Turn 2 tap Flagstones (one W in air)
Play Flagstones, causing you to sack both and replace them with untapped plains.
Tap both new plains (3 W in air).
Suck it.
Yes you can still do it but not as cool.
Everything is the same but sac the already tapped one.
The drawback with new legends rule is it doesnt shave the land from your deck as much.
Dude it's obvious you've never played with the card, why are you trying to be smart about it lol.
If Flagstones fetched untapped plains it would've been in every ****ing white deck and it probably would've been broken as it is basically a plain that add W to your mana pool and fetch your deck the turn that enter into play if you got one already. Not to talk about eventual sinergies with cards like crack the earth being mana-free, or used in conjunction with Ghost quarters as a sol land. Yeah it probably would have been just straightly broken.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current living in Gipsyland
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Reanimator - 4 Underground Seas
UW Miracles - 4 Tundra
RUG - 4 Tropical Island, 4 Volcanic Island.
Yeah, there are a lot of Legacy decks that run 4 of each bro.:rolleyes:
Anyways, on topic - I would absolutely LOVE to see them do this. It has a big drawback so people seriously wanting to get into the format would be unable to play them in many of the viable decks and it would allow some combo and several fringe decks to actually see play and would dramatically increase people able to play in various situations. Love the idea all around.
Edit: Granted, I don't see this actually happening... it's wishful thinking I imagine.
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
All we know is that Theros is giving us some kind of 2-color producing lands.
Um. No? I've definitely seen four underground sea in reanimator but the others are wrong.
Miracles likes basic lands, so most are more likely to run three or even two.
RUG running four and four? No way. It's almost always 8 fetches, four wastes, and three of each dual. If the RUG delver deck feels particularly mana hungry, they might go for a fourth trop, but I can't see them going to a fifth. Unless you mean another RUG deck but I don't know which you're referring to. Waterfalls maybe?
Anyways, even for the few decks that would want a fifth dual, that fifth dual wont exactly break the format. Not even close.
I wasn't saying these decks want to run 5 of each dual, I was saying that there are decks that require the non-legendary lands in order to be optimal and viable. If you haven't been following the thread then my post would seem random and out of nowhere, I was referencing the discussion I quoted.
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
My last two sentences weren't directed at you. They were just a general statement and meant to be part of the thread discussion.
The beginning was. I quoted you because you said that a lot of decks run four duals, but two of the three decks you listed as examples don't even do so.
Why you're lying? RUG and UW miracles don't run 4 copies of a dual.
RUG never does, UW almost never does (as they almost always splash a third color or run things like Oboro, Cloud Colonnade or other things), and you're right that reanimator plays 4 duals, but that's because of reanimate + griselbrand that make every single life point from a fetch extremely relevant, moreso than the ability to shuffle back from BS.
If you actually played the format you'd know this. There's a reason not even pure GW maverick don't run 4 savannah, fetches are better (can fetch basics against Wastes if needed, can fetch Arbor, thin deck and put lands into graveyard for DRS etc...).
Lots of deck where? Seriously. It's not even a matter of lists, it's just a matter of power level. When you got fetches, it's just better to run those over duals most of the time barring rare cases like Reanimator where every single lifepoint could be worth 7 cards.
Legendary is a drawback. See the Kamigawa mono utility lands.
Plus, having our City of Brass pimp-slapping us every time we hit it up for mana isn't too cool either.
I suppose here are my questions for "Legendary Duals":
1.) Where is the flavor? I believe someone already eloquently stated that using the type purely as a way to detract from its power level is clunky and not very intuitive for players. Can you find flavor for ten legendary lands that only produce one or another? Maybe, but I have my doubts.
2.) Why? Really, this is my biggest question. When do they fit in, a standard environment the FFL's unborn children are playing in (I supposed I just asked two questions here, but you'll let it slide)? Between ten filters, ten shocks, ten Core/Innistrad duals, five fetches, and a plethora of other fixers, Modern has it covered pretty well there. I think you guys already hammered away at the legacy topic pretty well (I also don't think arguing the price of competitive deck is viable, seeing as the old joke of your lands being most of your cost is starting to find itself untrue).
I suppose they just don't make much sense to me, but I'll be gladly refuted on any of those points.
These would never happen. Modern decks could run 1 of each relevant one and essentially push shocks out of the format. They would be fine for standard but OP in modern, and be even more mana fixing in legacy.
1) Where's the flavor on new slivers? On 4/7 female elves in robes? Many cards have ****ty flavors, lands with epic names like Tritan's Castle, Hanging Garden, City in the Sky etc... feel perfect in flavor terms to be legendary.
2) Modern would benefit from those. Sure, they would be always the first fetchable lands, but keep in mind that:
- players don't like to start at 17 life only to play lands
- aggro and combo would be slightly nerfed, while control would gain some more popularity. And isn't control in Modern currently heavily underrepresented? I mean, Mana leak has been cited as a strong answer in that format, really?
In term of fixing, they aren't better than shocks in a vacuum, they're better against aggro. Wouldn't modern like slightly better control decks? Asking because i don't play it.
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
-What if they printed legendary tri-color manlands that come into play tapped...imagine a tri color fixing manland that has a somewhat absurd activation cost to be like celestial colonnade on crack...
For me, this just seems more realistic.
i never knew there were so many decks running Murmuring Bosk nowadays.
They've explicitly said they're not printing a land that makes tri-color easier.
Where do you think all those JTMS come from? Legacy players drafts and buy singles like in every other formats, nowadays only stores really open packs.
WotC gain money from Legacy as any other formats. Especially because of the "retention" effect that act as a parachute for standard singles (and that's also a reason they made modern).
You could never get 3 mana on T2 with flagstones, and they're better now with the new legend rule, not worse, because you don't lose mana the turn you play 2. They're essentially painless fetches with 0 drawbacks, except PoP i guess.
If that's the case, then there's no legendary dual lands that will be printed, because that will also make tri-color easier.
It will make tri-color much, much worse than taplands, because running more than 2 of any copy would be terrible, and even 2 is bad in any non-aggro deck.
That said, I believe it unlikely we will see legendary duals, no matter how much I would love to see them for legacy and modern.
Read flagstones of trokair very closely. Notice that tapped clause at the end of the fetch.
How about "legendary" tri-lands to go with the commander product?
Commander Land
T: Add 1
T: Add X, Y, or Z. Spend only to cast legendary spells.
Dude it's obvious you've never played with the card, why are you trying to be smart about it lol.
If Flagstones fetched untapped plains it would've been in every ****ing white deck and it probably would've been broken as it is basically a plain that add W to your mana pool and fetch your deck the turn that enter into play if you got one already. Not to talk about eventual sinergies with cards like crack the earth being mana-free, or used in conjunction with Ghost quarters as a sol land. Yeah it probably would have been just straightly broken.