So a dual land where you have to sac 1 if you wish to play another copy is too strong? no way. I think a perfect scenario would be lands that say:
"~ enters the battlefield tapped. When ~ enters the battlefield, you may place a legend counter on it, if you do untap it and ~ gains the legendary supertype. T: Add W or U to your mana pool"
Why you talk about a format that you clearly never even care to watch once? Hardly any Legacy deck play 4 copies of a dual, getting those legenduals would just swap 1 normal dual for 1 legendary one for monetary reason, and wouldn't change anything if not in monetary ease of access.
But please talk more out of your ass. God forbid we get slightly less expensive manabases for Eternal formats because people must clearly spend 100$ for a piece of cardboard else they're entitled lmao.
Yes I don't know much about Legacy and made a bad assumption. Still, I don't understand why you need to be that aggressive. "talk more out of your ass", "lmao", "you clearly have no idea", nice arguments. Next time just don't quote me, I have no interest in discussing with people that have your attitude
Yes I don't know much about Legacy and made a bad assumption. Still, I don't understand why you need to be that aggressive. "talk more out of your ass", "lmao", "you clearly have no idea", nice arguments. Next time just don't quote me, I have no interest in discussing with people that have your attitude
Easier to make no assumption that stating things that are not true as fact. "Legacy don't need those because..." couldn't be further from the truth and misleading to other players that don't know the format. If you don't know something, don't talk about it, peace.
I think the primary problem with Dual lands with the Legendary Supertype would be that they'd effectively increase the number of duals you could have in a deck to five.
For example, if your legendary land had the plains and island subtypes, it'd effectively be Tundra #5 in a legacy/vintage deck, unless it had a second drawback.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
I think the primary problem with Dual lands with the Legendary Supertype would be that they'd effectively increase the number of duals you could have in a deck to five.
For example, if your legendary land had the plains and island subtypes, it'd effectively be Tundra #5 in a legacy/vintage deck, unless it had a second drawback.
No deck even play 4 copies of duals in Legacy and Vintage since Fetches were printed, guys please don't talk about this as it is a real thing when you could just look 2 list from any tournament or follow the format to know it's a non-issue.
Really, the reason thisw *will* happen (although maybe not in theros?) is to give EDH players yet another affordable land option and to give Legacy a small booster shot. The lands will "ease" the tensions on legacy duals - but not significantly. The goal would be to stabilize prices, not to drop them significantly.
Then, if the legacy duals start creeping up again, they can release a new set of legendary duals (with new names!) to stabilize them again.
Easier to make no assumption that stating things that are not true as fact. "Legacy don't need those because..." couldn't be further from the truth and misleading to other players that don't know the format. If you don't know something, don't talk about it, peace.
My problems with your comment are twofold: 1. your attitude and 2. the fact that you disregarded everything else I said on the matter just to nitpick the Legacy bit. My reply, even with the bad assumption, was a lot more valuable than yours to this thread because of everything ELSE I said, and because my attitude doesn't discourage discussion.
You could have just said "actually, Legacy decks don't run 4 copies of any Dual, as you can see [here] and [there]". I would stand corrected just fine. Your attitude was just despicable, has been reported, and feel free to not quote me anymore - I certainly wouldn't mind it one bit.
This IS a speculation forum. While you're correct that phrasing a speculation in a confident manner when one really knows nothing about the subject is silly, it's equally lacking in etiquette to sling hostility at the guy.
At least he up and admitted he didn't know what he was talking about, which is a lot more than I'd expect from most people on the 'net.
People playing 4 Duals and wanting to run 5 in Legacy is speculation how? Legacy isn't a real format mb?
I don't think they will create legendary duals. Sure they wouldn't be too bad, and the price wouldn't drop at all (check MM prices for Bobs and old Bobs, they are just climbing) In a format like Legacy you can't afford to be stuck with 2 legendary duals in your hand, unless you have some plan for them. So what would happen is, if you'd need to play 2 Tundras you'd probably play 1 Tundra + 1 Legendary UW dual, which would mean your deck is 60 $ cheaper (If we say that legendary duals cost 20 $ a piece), same would happen with Modern U/W/R would play 3 legendary duals and so on and so on. Although I'd love to see something like this happen. I mean. I'd love to see Modern manabase for 3 colour deck, with Fastlands, Checklands, Shocks, Fetchlands and Legendary Duals + maybe some utility land? I'd also love to see 4 colour pod decks manabases They have already one of the craziest mana bases around and with this kind of lands around what would they do?
Decks in legacy are usually tri-colored or mono, so having 3 Legendary duals would shave a good 200$ from them. Budget players could also play 2 of them and more fetches and skip them altogether. While not optimal, it would be very close to, much more than using Shocks.
Also Trop are around 80$, but Tundra are 100$ and seas are 120$. If you play Esper for example, you'd cut a 120 and 100 $ card, plus you could run a Scrubland variant (they are around 60$). Assuming a 20$ Legenduals, that's 220$ less dollars. That's ignoring the slightly price dip i think standard duals would take.
EDIT: those prices are all for Revised Heavily used duals. If you want at least mints, or even foreign BBE (i used to have a whole set of all italian duals), we're speaking easily about 150+ range, and 200+ range for BBE zzz
If i think i sold all my duals for about 15$ each back in 2003 EUGH.
Decks in legacy are usually tri-colored or mono, so having 3 Legendary duals would shave a good 200$ from them. Budget players could also play 2 of them and more fetches and skip them altogether. While not optimal, it would be very close to, much more than using Shocks.
Also Trop are around 80$, but Tundra are 100$ and seas are 120$. If you play Esper for example, you'd cut a 120 and 100 $ card, plus you could run a Scrubland variant (they are around 60$). Assuming a 20$ Legenduals, that's 220$ less dollars. That's ignoring the slightly price dip i think standard duals would take.
EDIT: those prices are all for Revised Heavily used duals. If you want at least mints, or even foreign BBE (i used to have a whole set of all italian duals), we're speaking easily about 150+ range, and 200+ range for BBE zzz
If i think i sold all my duals for about 15$ each back in 2003 EUGH.
I know that feel, I traded mine for standard legal rares way back when. >.<
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
While this seems unlikely.. if they did have legendary duals and they were printed at mythic instead of rare, it'd be interesting to see what the price point would be.
I don't think the idea is absurd. I think it's certainly possible.
-Under the old legendary rule, would-be legendary mana-fixing lands would be a no-no.
Special, situational utility lands would get the pass, but multicolor lands are staples.
-Each land would essentially be limited to 1 per deck.
-Modern manabases get improved, and 5 color control sees a big buff being able to virtually run the entire cycle.
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Interesting, considering Maro formerly stated that legendary lands don't play well, as players tend to forget it's legendary and play multiples.
I'm more curious how they would template duals. Would they bother with reminder text or flavor text? Double large mana symbols? Maybe the angled hybrid symbol in large? Full art wouldn't look good (vertical box for a landscape picture).
maro has also stated that just making the dual lands legendary wasn't enough of a change to get them printed under the reserve list policy
It sad how some people can't see how incredibly lame this is...
Styx, River of the Dead
Legendary Land-Island Swamp (R)
What's so legendary about it? Nothing! Its just a land that taps for two different colors of mana.
You know what would feel more legendary...
Styx, River of the Dead
Legendary Land-Island Swamp (R)
Whenever a nontoken creature you control dies, put a 2/2 black Zombie creature token onto the battlefield.
Sacrifice a creature: Return target instant or sorcery card from your graveyard to your hand.
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WOut of the ground,I rise to grace...W BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
I don't think they would make legendary duals because they just reprinted the shocklands. If they were going to do legendary duals, they would have done it in Ravnica. Because they just reprinted shocklands, I don't think they will make a better dual option until Ravnica rotates. Also, I think the reprint of the shocks shows their commitment to having the shocks in Modern, not the duals.
It sad how some people can't see how incredibly lame this is...
Styx, River of the Dead
Legendary Land-Island Swamp (R)
What's so legendary about it? Nothing! Its just a land that taps for two different colors of mana.
You know what would feel more legendary...
Styx, River of the Dead
Legendary Land-Island Swamp (R)
Whenever a nontoken creature you control dies, put a 2/2 black Zombie creature token onto the battlefield.
Sacrifice a creature: Return target instant or sorcery card from your graveyard to your hand.
yea, but the first version is on par with the power curve, and yours is just ridiculously broken.
Styx, River of the Dead
Legendary Land-Island Swamp (R)
Whenever a nontoken creature you control dies, put a 2/2 black Zombie creature token onto the battlefield.
Sacrifice a creature: Return target instant or sorcery card from your graveyard to your hand.
However, saying that legendary taps for two colours is on par with the power curve is absolutely wrong. It would probably be the worst dual land ever made.
Not by a long shot... It would fill a different role, but it would certainly not be the worst.
All that said, no, of course they wouldn't put it in standard*. The only purpose of that sort of land would be to ease the financial burden on entering legacy as a result of the initial duals. If they did make it, it would most likely fit in a boutique product and not an expansion set.
*Barring some sort of legendary theme similar to Kamigawa.
I think it's pretty clear that Wizards only plan to provide incidental support for legacy. Meaning that they might produce a card from time to time that's playable in legacy, but they do not focus on helping players get into legacy. The reserved list basically nailed shut the coffin on that one.
Given that they still actively support the format, I don't think thats clear at all. Modern, unfortuantely, has a huge gulf of sets that can't be used that are after the reprint list.
Sidenote: I'd like to see them just up and do a format where they ban everything on the reserve list, and then go from there.
I'm not sure if anyone has posted this yet, so from Maro's tumblr:
So I think we can safely assume we won't be getting these any time soon.
Only that those duals aren't used a 4-of anywhere. This argument is getting old and hasn't been true since Onslaught was printed, so stop tossing it around. Legenduals make maybe little sense from a flavor standpoint, but surely more than 4/7 female elves in robes or 4/2 creature that are bigger than a mountain. A land being legendary because it's a special location is good enough for flavor, no need for the land to do complicated stuffs beyond giving mana. Just give them decent names and no one would complain.
Most people on this thread are really uncreative. Can no one image lands coming out that are not basically just legendary duals, but instead something closer to horizon canopy/grove of the burnwillows. With the Future sight cycle WOTC managed on I think at least 2 of if not 3 of the lands (Graven Cairns) to make legacy and sometimes vintage playable cards that sit along side the true duals without invalidating them or strictly competing with them.
If we are to get new duals like everyone is speculating, I think the only way to really make them is with a downside that can be turned into an upside by very specific decks. For instance, and I am not saying this is a card that would be made, but what if you made:
Bayou 2
Legendary Forest Swamp
When this land comes into play, discard a card and then put a card from your graveyard on the top of your library.
So this is not strictly better or worse than bayou right. Play it too early and its crap and you timewalk yourself. But what about this in dredge? What about this as a late game to recycle a key card? As a one of in vintage to put back a blightsteel that got bounced and recycle your tinker.
I'm not saying they will do this, or even that we will get mana fixing in theros. We have plenty from RTR at this point, but i really cant believe that it would just be revised duals with legendary on them.
Did you mean to respond to a different post? This has absolutely nothing to do with what I wrote and I didn't even present an argument of my own. What I wrote was nowhere even remotely close to "but we'll have more than 4 of each dual land!".
Referred to Maro's post that you quoted. WotC incompetence at actually playing this game is astouding, giving they didn't unban Land Tax for years because it was "too good" and actually saw 0 play, something that anyone playing legacy could've told you. Same for Twist , Earthcraft and Vise (well, unless you play stasis but if you do you're a ****ty human being to me) , and they are still on the banned list. Mind over matter and Replenish were both on the banned list and both seriously sucks and anyone could've told you that there was absolutely 0 risk in unbanning them. All artifact engine pieces (Monolith, Metalworker), had only little impact on the competitive scenes, albeit they gave us a nice tier 2 deck in the form of MUD, and there were people actually concerned that Monolith could be a good card, but it was proven not so much. The only card that seriously surprised the Legacy scene when it was unbanned was Time Spiral, especially considering a lot of safer choices remained on the list (Tax was still banned at the time, and in Legacy Mind's Desire is safer than Spiral).
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"~ enters the battlefield tapped. When ~ enters the battlefield, you may place a legend counter on it, if you do untap it and ~ gains the legendary supertype. T: Add W or U to your mana pool"
Yes I don't know much about Legacy and made a bad assumption. Still, I don't understand why you need to be that aggressive. "talk more out of your ass", "lmao", "you clearly have no idea", nice arguments. Next time just don't quote me, I have no interest in discussing with people that have your attitude
Easier to make no assumption that stating things that are not true as fact. "Legacy don't need those because..." couldn't be further from the truth and misleading to other players that don't know the format. If you don't know something, don't talk about it, peace.
For example, if your legendary land had the plains and island subtypes, it'd effectively be Tundra #5 in a legacy/vintage deck, unless it had a second drawback.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
No deck even play 4 copies of duals in Legacy and Vintage since Fetches were printed, guys please don't talk about this as it is a real thing when you could just look 2 list from any tournament or follow the format to know it's a non-issue.
Then, if the legacy duals start creeping up again, they can release a new set of legendary duals (with new names!) to stabilize them again.
My problems with your comment are twofold: 1. your attitude and 2. the fact that you disregarded everything else I said on the matter just to nitpick the Legacy bit. My reply, even with the bad assumption, was a lot more valuable than yours to this thread because of everything ELSE I said, and because my attitude doesn't discourage discussion.
You could have just said "actually, Legacy decks don't run 4 copies of any Dual, as you can see [here] and [there]". I would stand corrected just fine. Your attitude was just despicable, has been reported, and feel free to not quote me anymore - I certainly wouldn't mind it one bit.
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Apparently 'Just getting started' still applies even though I've been on here since 2008...
People playing 4 Duals and wanting to run 5 in Legacy is speculation how? Legacy isn't a real format mb?
Decks in legacy are usually tri-colored or mono, so having 3 Legendary duals would shave a good 200$ from them. Budget players could also play 2 of them and more fetches and skip them altogether. While not optimal, it would be very close to, much more than using Shocks.
Also Trop are around 80$, but Tundra are 100$ and seas are 120$. If you play Esper for example, you'd cut a 120 and 100 $ card, plus you could run a Scrubland variant (they are around 60$). Assuming a 20$ Legenduals, that's 220$ less dollars. That's ignoring the slightly price dip i think standard duals would take.
EDIT: those prices are all for Revised Heavily used duals. If you want at least mints, or even foreign BBE (i used to have a whole set of all italian duals), we're speaking easily about 150+ range, and 200+ range for BBE zzz
If i think i sold all my duals for about 15$ each back in 2003 EUGH.
I know that feel, I traded mine for standard legal rares way back when. >.<
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
-Under the old legendary rule, would-be legendary mana-fixing lands would be a no-no.
Special, situational utility lands would get the pass, but multicolor lands are staples.
-Each land would essentially be limited to 1 per deck.
-Modern manabases get improved, and 5 color control sees a big buff being able to virtually run the entire cycle.
"OH GOD MY BRAIN IS EXPLOADING AT HOW BAD THE ART IS ON MY OWN CARD"
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10/10, I tapped.
maro has also stated that just making the dual lands legendary wasn't enough of a change to get them printed under the reserve list policy
Styx, River of the Dead
Legendary Land-Island Swamp (R)
What's so legendary about it? Nothing! Its just a land that taps for two different colors of mana.
You know what would feel more legendary...
Styx, River of the Dead
Legendary Land-Island Swamp (R)
Whenever a nontoken creature you control dies, put a 2/2 black Zombie creature token onto the battlefield.
Sacrifice a creature: Return target instant or sorcery card from your graveyard to your hand.
BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
yea, but the first version is on par with the power curve, and yours is just ridiculously broken.
Is Legendary code for obscenely overpowered?
While I do not doubt this, do you have a link to it?
Not by a long shot... It would fill a different role, but it would certainly not be the worst.
All that said, no, of course they wouldn't put it in standard*. The only purpose of that sort of land would be to ease the financial burden on entering legacy as a result of the initial duals. If they did make it, it would most likely fit in a boutique product and not an expansion set.
*Barring some sort of legendary theme similar to Kamigawa.
Given that they still actively support the format, I don't think thats clear at all. Modern, unfortuantely, has a huge gulf of sets that can't be used that are after the reprint list.
Sidenote: I'd like to see them just up and do a format where they ban everything on the reserve list, and then go from there.
Only that those duals aren't used a 4-of anywhere. This argument is getting old and hasn't been true since Onslaught was printed, so stop tossing it around. Legenduals make maybe little sense from a flavor standpoint, but surely more than 4/7 female elves in robes or 4/2 creature that are bigger than a mountain. A land being legendary because it's a special location is good enough for flavor, no need for the land to do complicated stuffs beyond giving mana. Just give them decent names and no one would complain.
If we are to get new duals like everyone is speculating, I think the only way to really make them is with a downside that can be turned into an upside by very specific decks. For instance, and I am not saying this is a card that would be made, but what if you made:
Bayou 2
Legendary Forest Swamp
When this land comes into play, discard a card and then put a card from your graveyard on the top of your library.
So this is not strictly better or worse than bayou right. Play it too early and its crap and you timewalk yourself. But what about this in dredge? What about this as a late game to recycle a key card? As a one of in vintage to put back a blightsteel that got bounced and recycle your tinker.
I'm not saying they will do this, or even that we will get mana fixing in theros. We have plenty from RTR at this point, but i really cant believe that it would just be revised duals with legendary on them.
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Referred to Maro's post that you quoted. WotC incompetence at actually playing this game is astouding, giving they didn't unban Land Tax for years because it was "too good" and actually saw 0 play, something that anyone playing legacy could've told you. Same for Twist , Earthcraft and Vise (well, unless you play stasis but if you do you're a ****ty human being to me) , and they are still on the banned list. Mind over matter and Replenish were both on the banned list and both seriously sucks and anyone could've told you that there was absolutely 0 risk in unbanning them. All artifact engine pieces (Monolith, Metalworker), had only little impact on the competitive scenes, albeit they gave us a nice tier 2 deck in the form of MUD, and there were people actually concerned that Monolith could be a good card, but it was proven not so much. The only card that seriously surprised the Legacy scene when it was unbanned was Time Spiral, especially considering a lot of safer choices remained on the list (Tax was still banned at the time, and in Legacy Mind's Desire is safer than Spiral).