OK, so. Replace the tap with an mandatory upkeep trigger and I think I just love that card. Chaotic, potentially powerful if you build/play into it. You can plan around it by dumping your hand in response to the trigger, but it can also just bite you in the butt in a very red way (sort of like how Confidant can bite you in the butt in a very black way).
Plus it can still swing, which releases some of the tension but makes it stronger for burn/zoo.
Sold.
I love it. Although preferably without the random part. Might be too powerful otherwise though idk. Ideally:
Goblin Looter 1R
Creature - Goblin Rogue
At the beginning of your upkeep, discard a card, then draw a card.
2/1
I swear I first read it as Wingbonger...something tells me that "As Long as Wingbonger is paired with another creature, both creatures have weed." wouldn't be as good. Seems solid for limited.
The way you wrote your post almost makes it sound like you're disagreeing with him, but he's advocating exactly what you said, so I'm not sure why you would want to do that.
Anyway, yes, discarding and then drawing is a reckless effect that gets better the more "recklessly" you play. This is incredibly flavorful for Red, which is why it's basically a great fit for red.
Actually, yes, he made my point perfectly. Much more succinctly than I did in my OP.
I feel like this is along the power level and staple eligibility as Stoneforge, Snappy, Bob, and Goyf. Definitely less than Stoneforge. Which is a good thing. I'd say closest to Bob. Would need a more original name than Goblin Looter though.
I swear I first read it as Wingbonger...something tells me that "As Long as Wingbonger is paired with another creature, both creatures have weed." wouldn't be as good. Seems solid for limited.
It would be a good card, but bob/goyf/scm/mystic are all better than this card because they provide actual card advantage (and goyf is just obscenely efficient).
It would be a good card, but bob/goyf/scm/mystic are all better than this card because they provide actual card advantage (and goyf is just obscenely efficient).
I really like the card, would be a lot of fun.
True, but in a deck like RDW that empties its hand quickly, it becomes "At the beginning of your upkeep draw a card."
So I guess it's conditionally better than Bob. But that doesn't mean much.
I swear I first read it as Wingbonger...something tells me that "As Long as Wingbonger is paired with another creature, both creatures have weed." wouldn't be as good. Seems solid for limited.
I don't think it would be too bad to give red just straight discard/draw effects. Red is due to benefit from a redistricting of the color pie, as many of the things red has historically been good at, cheap burn, land destruction, artifact destruction are hard to do on a big scale. Too much cheap burn makes limited weird, land destruction is something WotC has decided to de-emphasize, and artifact destruction is good, but narrow.
I feel like this is along the power level and staple eligibility as Stoneforge, Snappy, Bob, and Goyf. Definitely less than Stoneforge. Which is a good thing. I'd say closest to Bob. Would need a more original name than Goblin Looter though.
I don't want to be a downer but that creature wouldn't be as good as the other 4 creatures. To be on their level it would have to have a slightly tweaked better ability or better P/T. I'd say it should be 3/1 at the least.
I don't want to be a downer but that creature wouldn't be as good as the other 4 creatures. To be on their level it would have to have a slightly tweaked better ability or better P/T. I'd say it should be 3/1 at the least.
Yeah capitacom pointed that out. The other 4 either provide CA or in the case of Goyf are ridiculous beaters. I feel like it should either be somehow slightly more powerful but I'm not sure how. P/T adjustment? Ability adjustment? Which would be better?
I swear I first read it as Wingbonger...something tells me that "As Long as Wingbonger is paired with another creature, both creatures have weed." wouldn't be as good. Seems solid for limited.
Honestly though, for it to be as powerful as stuff like SCM or SFM I honestly think it would need to be 3/3 for 1R which I know is pretty high. Not sure how this creature could be printed and probably kept out of standard but I think it would be playable in the eternal formats.
To make this guy Red's awesome 2-drop creature, he'd need to be vicious; 3/1 first striker with mandatory looting? Or a 2/1 first striker with Red looting for 2.
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[box][box][size=3][b]CARDNAME[/b][/size] [float=right][mana]MANACOST[/mana][/float][/box]
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I swear I first read it as Wingbonger...something tells me that "As Long as Wingbonger is paired with another creature, both creatures have weed." wouldn't be as good. Seems solid for limited.
What if instead of discard then draw red loots at a higher mana cost but gets a rider with it.
Red might get a "draw x then discard x, deal 1 damage to target creature or player for each (card type) discarded this way."
Or if you prefer a compulsive research type effect. "Draw two cards then discard one card at random or discard two cards of your choice. If you discarded two cards this way deal 2 damage to target creature or player."
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Goblin Looter 1R
Creature - Goblin Rogue
Haste
At the beginning of your upkeep, discard a card, then draw a card.
3/1
I love the design of this. An efficient hasty beater with card filtering and potential card advantage built in. But would this break formats where burn is mildly competitive? Once you hit that magical 3 mana in legacy burn decks your lands are free cyclers and top decking this once your hand is empty either finishes the game or if left unanswered for one turn ensures you the gas needed to do so. It may need to be RR to not be as easily splashable in existing aggro strategies.
Is there any reason this type of ability couldn't be printed on a mythic with an activation cost outside of tap or discard. RR: discard two cards, draw two cards. Its about time we had another dragon that isn't bad.
Why couldn't we have just a straight-up Merfolk Looter-style card? Everyone seems to be making all these 2/1s with overly-complex upkeep triggers, I think the card should just be:
Goblin Looter 1R
Creature - Goblin Rogue (C)
:symtap:: Discard a card, then draw a card.
1/1
I don't think that would be too strong for Limited or anything. Outside of netting cards for being hellbent (which is a neat subgame and very Red), this is quite a bit worse than Merfolk Looter. I could even see them being in the same Core Set to showcase the colors' different takes on the looting effect.
Why couldn't we have just a straight-up Merfolk Looter-style card? Everyone seems to be making all these 2/1s with overly-complex upkeep triggers, I think the card should just be:
Goblin Looter 1R
Creature - Goblin Rogue (C)
:symtap:: Discard a card, then draw a card.
1/1
I don't think that would be too strong for Limited or anything. Outside of netting cards for being hellbent (which is a neat subgame and very Red), this is quite a bit worse than Merfolk Looter. I could even see them being in the same Core Set to showcase the colors' different takes on the looting effect.
This is too strong of a card draw effect in red. Once you empty your hand it just draws you an extra card every turn.
My guess is this is what they will do for red looting...
Goblin Looter 1R
Creature - Goblin Rogue (C)
:symtap:: Discard a card. If you do, draw a card.
2/1
I think if you look at what Red has been allowed to have in the recent past at that cost, you'll find that card is insanely overpowered by comparison.
Yeah and red is by far one of the weakest colors in magic. It's usually used for only a handful of cards, typically Lightning Bolt. Red needs more than it has been allowed in the past.
edit: I don't see the point to everyone posting unplayable versions of the creature we're discussing.
What if Red Looting were to take the form of Forbidden Alchemy style effects? (ie look at X cards, keep 1 and toss the rest).
It's odd to think of this effect not being Blue at first, but the idea of looking at a pile of things, keeping the one you want most and throwing away the rest, does feel rather Red in flavour.
Point is, being hellbent is such as disadvantage that it's not going to to do insane things by drawing you a card when hellbent. As long as they don't do Wheel of Fortune-level seven-card madness, it should be fine. Sticking to one or two cards at a time will be fine.
Also I'd have red looter at a different thing to Merfolk just to show the difference.
2R
Guy - Goblin T: Discard a card, then draw a card.
2/1
Idle Thoughts doesn't see play. This isn't going to be that powerful, either.
1B Diabolic Tutor is OP. 3R four damage is OP. 2B for a 4/3 flier is OP.
3R for 5 damage is not OP (see Brimstone Volley, easier to activate), 3B for 4/3 flier is not OP
A red looter, with discard first, would be pretty awesome though, and I don't think there's really any need for hellbent. However, while discard 1, draw 1 is fine, I feel that discard 2, draw 2 is actually too powerful and would need to be high costed to compensate.
the card you have been discussing, has to get the discard part of the cost, otherwise is overpowered.
:rolleyes:No, not really. Situationally strong and overpowered are two different things.
Handless is such a painful state to be in, it easily justifies added strength. And the effect is weaker than conventional looting when you do have cards in your hand.
One, maybe two cards would be the limit with this effect, but keeping it from getting any bigger should prevent the return of Wheel of Fortune-style brokenness.
the card you have been discussing, has to get the discard part of the cost, otherwise is overpowered.
Why? This is the part I don't get. Why is it overpowered to have a worse looter 90% of the time, and tap, draw 1 only when you are in top deck mode?
Putting it on a creature makes it even worse for the red decks that want to be in top deck mode because using the creature to draw means it can't attack, and turns on opponents creature kill.
Nobody is arguing it would be "bad". Just not overpowered.
RR
Guy - Goblin T, discard a card: draw a card.
2/1
something like this, could be plausible.
Something like that would be useless.
Red doesn't have to make its card draw useless in order to get it. The whole point of shifting the ability to red is to give red a usefull tool, instead of something useless.
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I love it. Although preferably without the random part. Might be too powerful otherwise though idk. Ideally:
Goblin Looter 1R
Creature - Goblin Rogue
At the beginning of your upkeep, discard a card, then draw a card.
2/1
RIP Mike McArtor. The Mothership won't be the same.
Legacy
GG Aggro Elves GG
Actually, yes, he made my point perfectly. Much more succinctly than I did in my OP.
Beautiful. I could see it.
RWU
GUB
WBR
URG
BGW
I feel like this is along the power level and staple eligibility as Stoneforge, Snappy, Bob, and Goyf. Definitely less than Stoneforge. Which is a good thing. I'd say closest to Bob. Would need a more original name than Goblin Looter though.
RIP Mike McArtor. The Mothership won't be the same.
Legacy
GG Aggro Elves GG
I really like the card, would be a lot of fun.
BRWC Mardu Shops - Tymna and Akiri Artifacts BRWC
True, but in a deck like RDW that empties its hand quickly, it becomes "At the beginning of your upkeep draw a card."
So I guess it's conditionally better than Bob. But that doesn't mean much.
RIP Mike McArtor. The Mothership won't be the same.
Legacy
GG Aggro Elves GG
I don't want to be a downer but that creature wouldn't be as good as the other 4 creatures. To be on their level it would have to have a slightly tweaked better ability or better P/T. I'd say it should be 3/1 at the least.
Yeah capitacom pointed that out. The other 4 either provide CA or in the case of Goyf are ridiculous beaters. I feel like it should either be somehow slightly more powerful but I'm not sure how. P/T adjustment? Ability adjustment? Which would be better?
RIP Mike McArtor. The Mothership won't be the same.
Legacy
GG Aggro Elves GG
Honestly though, for it to be as powerful as stuff like SCM or SFM I honestly think it would need to be 3/3 for 1R which I know is pretty high. Not sure how this creature could be printed and probably kept out of standard but I think it would be playable in the eternal formats.
Level 1 Judge
Creature - Goblin Rogue
Haste
At the beginning of your upkeep, discard a card, then draw a card.
3/1
RIP Mike McArtor. The Mothership won't be the same.
Legacy
GG Aggro Elves GG
Red might get a "draw x then discard x, deal 1 damage to target creature or player for each (card type) discarded this way."
Or if you prefer a compulsive research type effect. "Draw two cards then discard one card at random or discard two cards of your choice. If you discarded two cards this way deal 2 damage to target creature or player."
I love the design of this. An efficient hasty beater with card filtering and potential card advantage built in. But would this break formats where burn is mildly competitive? Once you hit that magical 3 mana in legacy burn decks your lands are free cyclers and top decking this once your hand is empty either finishes the game or if left unanswered for one turn ensures you the gas needed to do so. It may need to be RR to not be as easily splashable in existing aggro strategies.
Is there any reason this type of ability couldn't be printed on a mythic with an activation cost outside of tap or discard. RR: discard two cards, draw two cards. Its about time we had another dragon that isn't bad.
I think if you look at what Red has been allowed to have in the recent past at that cost, you'll find that card is insanely overpowered by comparison.
Goblin Looter 1R
Creature - Goblin Rogue (C)
:symtap:: Discard a card, then draw a card.
1/1
I don't think that would be too strong for Limited or anything. Outside of netting cards for being hellbent (which is a neat subgame and very Red), this is quite a bit worse than Merfolk Looter. I could even see them being in the same Core Set to showcase the colors' different takes on the looting effect.
This is too strong of a card draw effect in red. Once you empty your hand it just draws you an extra card every turn.
My guess is this is what they will do for red looting...
Goblin Looter 1R
Creature - Goblin Rogue (C)
:symtap:: Discard a card. If you do, draw a card.
2/1
Yeah and red is by far one of the weakest colors in magic. It's usually used for only a handful of cards, typically Lightning Bolt. Red needs more than it has been allowed in the past.
edit: I don't see the point to everyone posting unplayable versions of the creature we're discussing.
It's odd to think of this effect not being Blue at first, but the idea of looking at a pile of things, keeping the one you want most and throwing away the rest, does feel rather Red in flavour.
1B Diabolic Tutor is OP.
3R four damage is OP.
2B for a 4/3 flier is OP.
YET THEY EXIST.
Point is, being hellbent is such as disadvantage that it's not going to to do insane things by drawing you a card when hellbent. As long as they don't do Wheel of Fortune-level seven-card madness, it should be fine. Sticking to one or two cards at a time will be fine.
Also I'd have red looter at a different thing to Merfolk just to show the difference.
2R
Guy - Goblin
T: Discard a card, then draw a card.
2/1
Idle Thoughts doesn't see play. This isn't going to be that powerful, either.
You got 99 attackers but I'm blocking with 1.
The Winner is Judge | 7
This Winner is Also Judge | 6
Club Flamingo | Lots
3R for 5 damage is not OP (see Brimstone Volley, easier to activate), 3B for 4/3 flier is not OP
A red looter, with discard first, would be pretty awesome though, and I don't think there's really any need for hellbent. However, while discard 1, draw 1 is fine, I feel that discard 2, draw 2 is actually too powerful and would need to be high costed to compensate.
RGodo, Bandit WarlordR
GSeton, Krosan ProtectorG
BGJarad, Golgari Lich LordGB
Then it's just a worse Merfolk Looter, which is already only good in limited.
:rolleyes:No, not really. Situationally strong and overpowered are two different things.
Handless is such a painful state to be in, it easily justifies added strength. And the effect is weaker than conventional looting when you do have cards in your hand.
One, maybe two cards would be the limit with this effect, but keeping it from getting any bigger should prevent the return of Wheel of Fortune-style brokenness.
RWU
GUB
WBR
URG
BGW
Why? This is the part I don't get. Why is it overpowered to have a worse looter 90% of the time, and tap, draw 1 only when you are in top deck mode?
Putting it on a creature makes it even worse for the red decks that want to be in top deck mode because using the creature to draw means it can't attack, and turns on opponents creature kill.
Nobody is arguing it would be "bad". Just not overpowered.
Something like that would be useless.
Red doesn't have to make its card draw useless in order to get it. The whole point of shifting the ability to red is to give red a usefull tool, instead of something useless.