You are missing the point here (I mentioned Emrakul because sneaking him onto the battlefield is a popular tactic, and I mentioned Bolas because he DID see play before Cruel Toast stopped caring about him).
To reiterate, even Chandra Ablaze is better than Illusory Servant. Or Mudhole, but no one loves that card.
Yes I saw the point that Planeswalkers are less vulnerable than Illusory Servant. I'm sure the person who said that was exaggerating to make a point. I think that you missing my point.
To reiterate, Planeswalkers are not anywhere near indestructible.
Although I am just assuming you were one of the people saying that. Also Baneslayer sure as hell can kill them.
I sure hope not. I love them, and they are the cards I look foward to the most during spoiler season. Not the complaints about prices from teens who don't have jobs.
Yeah, let's compare Magic to Star Wars for a second.
Star Wars is one of the largest "geek" franchises in the world with tons of hardcore fans. It's got dozens of cool characters, races, vehicles, and other elements that are recognizable across multiple generations. Your mom knows who Darth Vader is. Your kids know who he is. Yet despite this tremendously strong brand and character recognition, the card game failed. Not only the first one, but every card game based on Star Wars failed, as far as I know.
Magic, on the other hand, had no recognizable characters when it debuted. It wasn't built on any pre-existing IP and had no clearly defined story. Even Urza was only mentioned on two cards in Alpha/Beta/Unlimited. Do you know what they were without looking?
Glasses of Urza and Sunglasses of Urza.
Not exactly character defining or awe-inspiring cards, right? They didn't even have flavor text describing who Urza was.
The success of early Magic was not due to a story or to its characters. Instead, its success was due to the strength of its game play, its customization options, its fantasy flavor, and its collectibility.
In order to remain successful, Magic must continue to rely on the things that made it successful in the first place. New elements can be added, but they must not overshadow the pieces that have been proven to work over the past 17 years. Star Wars has shown us that cool characters, great stories, and a rich fantasy setting cannot sustain a game. I understand that planeswalkers can draw in a certain audience, and that might be beneficial to the game. However, Magic should never seek to emulate a strategy that has already been proved to fail.
WotC, please keep the focus on the cards and the game, not the characters and the story.
Just because MTG doesn't rely on its characters doesn't mean that it doesn't help sales and excitement.
Just because MTG doesn't rely on its characters doesn't mean that it doesn't help sales and excitement.
I said that. My point was that WotC shouldn't focus too much on the characters because they aren't what makes the game great. Planeswalkers don't need to be so powerful as to be central to so many decks. They can be slightly weaker and still attract the same audience they do now.
I think that PW's will not only stick around for quite a while, but will spark quite a bit of growth regarding PW's. A lot of design space has opened up w/ PW's, from what +/- abilities will go on them to interactions with PW's.
I can see things like this on cards: "protection from PW's"; "gets +2/+2 if a PW you control has 7 or more loyalty on them"; "when ~ ETB, return target PW's loyalty to it's starting loyalty'; etc...
I am starting a format with friends which doesn't include Planeswalkers. Its called Classic. Much more balanced! Without the PW u/w control isn't even relevant.
I think that PW's will not only stick around for quite a while, but will spark quite a bit of growth regarding PW's. A lot of design space has opened up w/ PW's, from what +/- abilities will go on them to interactions with PW's.
I can see things like this on cards: "protection from PW's"; "gets +2/+2 if a PW you control has 7 or more loyalty on them"; "when ~ ETB, return target PW's loyalty to it's starting loyalty'; etc...
I'm really hoping they go the opposite path, and don't have any of that stuff. It wouldn't make flavor sense for a spell to be able to target only Planeswalkers, and not players. Players are planeswalkers, too. YOU are a planeswalker.
Kamigawa wasn't bad because of it's theme. Legendary is a great theme if done correctly, it was doomed because of poor design choices made along the way.
The reason an planeswalker set would fail is because the planeswalkers would displace creatures, and create unfun game situations where there's too much information flying around. You'd have to keep track of counters on half a dozen permanents, you'd always lose to an ultimate because you can't attack enough to keep them all low.
... It would just be terrible. Legendary works because you can add it to creatures, planeswalkers don't really work.
I'm really hoping they go the opposite path, and don't have any of that stuff. It wouldn't make flavor sense for a spell to be able to target only Planeswalkers, and not players. Players are planeswalkers, too. YOU are a planeswalker.
But players do not have loyalty. A PW is not a player, they are more like a companion, or a side-kick. Think of all of us as Dr. Frankenstein & PW's are all Igor's. And we are really a step up higher tan a PW. We are the Gods in the game, armed with skill & luck.
And I am thinking it would be creatures, spells, artifacts, enchantments, and other PW's that target PW's.
But players do not have loyalty. A PW is not a player, they are more like a companion, or a side-kick. Think of all of us as Dr. Frankenstein & PW's are all Igor's. And we are really a step up higher tan a PW. We are the Gods in the game, armed with skill & luck.
And I am thinking it would be creatures, spells, artifacts, enchantments, and other PW's that target PW's.
A Planeswalker isn't using their full power when you summon them, they'll give you a bit of help, but they're not risking their lives, which is why when they've had enough and lost what loyalty they've had they essentially say "screw this" and leave.
If jace's full power was represented it would be like having a mono blue control deck join the game on your team, would be incredibly unbalanced.
They won't stop making them nor should they. Just imagine how bad scars would be of a set without them theres basically no good reason to buy scars without them most of these rares are very narrow and wil be 50-1.50 cards after a month after release people are only going to buy packs in hopes of getting one. Otherwise they could use the 4 dollars to get probably a playset of any rare they would want of course with few exceptions.
I think in the future they should even have a cards devoted to planeswalkers. Cards likea tutor for them a way to remove them and a card to pump them or let u use their abilities more than once a turn.
I think in the future they should even have a cards devoted to planeswalkers. Cards likea tutor for them a way to remove them and a card to pump them or let u use their abilities more than once a turn.
Those are all purple abilities.
I think planeswalkers should continue to be printed and should be mythic, but they should appear in packs twice as often as a normal mythic. Of course, then you get something like vengevine, which is going to be ridiculously expensive anyway.
For those of you complaining about the Mythic Rarity and how hard they are to pull. Do the math and you will find out that with the smaller set sizes any given Mythic Rare is no harder to pull then and Tenth Edition Wrath of God. There have been "Mythic" rares for a long time now we just have a different color symbol to make them easier to identify.
I've heard this statistic every time a mythic rare discussion has been brought up since they reduced the set sizes. I like it no more now than I did when I heard it for the first time. Though technically correct (the best kind of correct), the statistic is only accurate if the only way for any given person to get a copy of a card is to open up a pack. Furthermore, that stat is only really releveant if personally opening packs is the best way for someone to acquire specific cards.
Tenth Edition is the set that is always used to prove that you have as many chances of opening a *** as you do a JtMS (actually as a small smaller set, your odds of opening a Jace would be even better, no?). I'm not sure about anyone else, but I haven't seen a Wrath sell for $50+ since the days when buying Magic cards meant leafing through a couple of dozen book pages in your one local game shop that has heard of the game.
I doubt they'll ever stop, and I doubt they'll print fewer. Doesn't mean I don't want it to happen though.
I remember after the lorwyn walkers they said they wanted to keep PWs special and that they wouldn't print them in every set. Now, they print them in every set. Makes me sad.
Or are they just another integral part of the game now?
It seems to me that the big problem with mythics is that planeswalkers are automatically mythics, and planeswalkers are usually the most powerful cards in a set. So just stop printing them already. I'm more than ready to get rid of this card type.
I believe that the likelihood of Wizards not printing Planeswalkers in the future is so low that I wonder why this thread hasn't been locked.
Seriously, people ☺☺☺☺ing love them. Wizards clearly recognizes this and knew it before they started the printing. They've quickly become part of the face of the game and are chase cards in every set in which they are printed. If nothing else, they bring in a ton of money.
They're an innovative way to spice up the game and, IMHO, none of them are overpowered. I'd go as far as to say that maybe 4 or 5 of them at most are even just really really good. The rest are mediocre cards at best.
That's like wondering if they're going to stop making Batman movies or printing the bible.
Honestly if they stopped making planeswalkers i would quit playing i been playing since 4th edition and took a 2 year break from it after ice age through odyssey i think. I really got back into cards when lorywn came out cryptic command and PW's made be able to use new cards that to me were better than creatures i hate aggro so they seem like better creatures.
They give people reasons to buy packs as well without them they're would be little reason to buy packs since all non mythics are usually 5$ tops and most of the other mythics are trash.
Planeswalkers are not a problem. I repeat, they're not a problem. Jace 2.0 is a problem. (Reusable Brainstorm for 0. Really? Biggest design mistake since Memory Jar, Jace 2.0 without Brainstorm is a powerful, but not insane card)
But all the rest of the Planeswalkers are fine. They're powerful, but they also cost a lot of mana for their effects, and they really are vulnerable in the current metagame.
Planeswalkers are a natural progression of the game.
They create clocks and threats that generate advantage in the same way artifacts and enchantments do.
Yet they can be destroyed by creatures in a manner similar to how one stops creature-based threats (although with planeswalkers your attacking to destroy rather than blocking or provoking blocks).
Therefore it gives each color an opportunity to both win with a non-creature based threat (even if the threat itself wins by generating creatures its ultimately a non-creature source) and destroy said non-creature threat using the universal element of creatures (even if blue has weaker creatures, it can deal with planeswalkers as well as green via counter-magic, bounce and evasion).
In early magic design its seems as though a player was considered a resource. Life gain and damage prevention was a much greater focus (when you take into account the entirety of the card pool) than generating card advantage. However as time moved on people realized that a player by itself can't do jack-squat without cards. Removing all of a player's resources and threats leaves the player helpless. While we are supposed to take the role of planeswalkers, the fact we rely on cards means even with unlimited energy we can't do a thing without a card to channel it into some sort of threat. A planeswalker is a method of solving that problem by turning a "teammate" into a card. You create a "player" that only needs a single card and will always "draw a spell" that they can cast. Thus, there is always a threat. There is always something for creatures and players to attack even if their opponent has nothing else.
First we had Island Sanctuary, Moat and Rod of Ruin.
Then we had Cursed Scroll, Null Brooch and Ensnaring Bridge.
Then we had the cycle of "Words" and even Flashback.
Then we had Hondens and a slew of re-usable artifice.
And now we have planeswalkers.
They are all methods to win the game without creatures...
Nope, not a chance! They are kinda the games image now, powerful planeswalkers dueling it out. However, I think it's possible we could see a small set without one, though the chance is unlikely, and it won't happen for a while.
A planeswalker at rare is possible, but maybe that'll be in the planeswalker block, and it'll suck like Kamigawa.:p
Guys, I didn't read this whole topic, but since people like money, PW will never stop being printed. Staple three/four other cards together and add appropriate color/cmc/loyalty: EASY BANK.
Yes I saw the point that Planeswalkers are less vulnerable than Illusory Servant. I'm sure the person who said that was exaggerating to make a point. I think that you missing my point.
To reiterate, Planeswalkers are not anywhere near indestructible.
Although I am just assuming you were one of the people saying that. Also Baneslayer sure as hell can kill them.
GGGOmnath, Locus of ManaGGG
Standard
RMyrboltR
Just because MTG doesn't rely on its characters doesn't mean that it doesn't help sales and excitement.
I said that. My point was that WotC shouldn't focus too much on the characters because they aren't what makes the game great. Planeswalkers don't need to be so powerful as to be central to so many decks. They can be slightly weaker and still attract the same audience they do now.
I can see things like this on cards: "protection from PW's"; "gets +2/+2 if a PW you control has 7 or more loyalty on them"; "when ~ ETB, return target PW's loyalty to it's starting loyalty'; etc...
Thinking more along the lines of Kamigawa 2.0, substituting legends for planeswalkers...
Worst set in history.
I am starting a format with friends which doesn't include Planeswalkers. Its called Classic. Much more balanced! Without the PW u/w control isn't even relevant.
I'm really hoping they go the opposite path, and don't have any of that stuff. It wouldn't make flavor sense for a spell to be able to target only Planeswalkers, and not players. Players are planeswalkers, too. YOU are a planeswalker.
Kamigawa wasn't bad because of it's theme. Legendary is a great theme if done correctly, it was doomed because of poor design choices made along the way.
The reason an planeswalker set would fail is because the planeswalkers would displace creatures, and create unfun game situations where there's too much information flying around. You'd have to keep track of counters on half a dozen permanents, you'd always lose to an ultimate because you can't attack enough to keep them all low.
... It would just be terrible. Legendary works because you can add it to creatures, planeswalkers don't really work.
But players do not have loyalty. A PW is not a player, they are more like a companion, or a side-kick. Think of all of us as Dr. Frankenstein & PW's are all Igor's. And we are really a step up higher tan a PW. We are the Gods in the game, armed with skill & luck.
And I am thinking it would be creatures, spells, artifacts, enchantments, and other PW's that target PW's.
A Planeswalker isn't using their full power when you summon them, they'll give you a bit of help, but they're not risking their lives, which is why when they've had enough and lost what loyalty they've had they essentially say "screw this" and leave.
If jace's full power was represented it would be like having a mono blue control deck join the game on your team, would be incredibly unbalanced.
I think in the future they should even have a cards devoted to planeswalkers. Cards likea tutor for them a way to remove them and a card to pump them or let u use their abilities more than once a turn.
Those are all purple abilities.
I think planeswalkers should continue to be printed and should be mythic, but they should appear in packs twice as often as a normal mythic. Of course, then you get something like vengevine, which is going to be ridiculously expensive anyway.
I've heard this statistic every time a mythic rare discussion has been brought up since they reduced the set sizes. I like it no more now than I did when I heard it for the first time. Though technically correct (the best kind of correct), the statistic is only accurate if the only way for any given person to get a copy of a card is to open up a pack. Furthermore, that stat is only really releveant if personally opening packs is the best way for someone to acquire specific cards.
Tenth Edition is the set that is always used to prove that you have as many chances of opening a *** as you do a JtMS (actually as a small smaller set, your odds of opening a Jace would be even better, no?). I'm not sure about anyone else, but I haven't seen a Wrath sell for $50+ since the days when buying Magic cards meant leafing through a couple of dozen book pages in your one local game shop that has heard of the game.
I remember after the lorwyn walkers they said they wanted to keep PWs special and that they wouldn't print them in every set. Now, they print them in every set. Makes me sad.
[[b]B]DCI Level 2 Judge[/B][/b]they will stop if the game dies, i suppose.
i think they are here to stay
Seriously, people ☺☺☺☺ing love them. Wizards clearly recognizes this and knew it before they started the printing. They've quickly become part of the face of the game and are chase cards in every set in which they are printed. If nothing else, they bring in a ton of money.
They're an innovative way to spice up the game and, IMHO, none of them are overpowered. I'd go as far as to say that maybe 4 or 5 of them at most are even just really really good. The rest are mediocre cards at best.
That's like wondering if they're going to stop making Batman movies or printing the bible.
EDH:
Niv-Mizzet
Legacy:
The Rack
Modern
Venser, the Sojourner Control
They give people reasons to buy packs as well without them they're would be little reason to buy packs since all non mythics are usually 5$ tops and most of the other mythics are trash.
But all the rest of the Planeswalkers are fine. They're powerful, but they also cost a lot of mana for their effects, and they really are vulnerable in the current metagame.
They create clocks and threats that generate advantage in the same way artifacts and enchantments do.
Yet they can be destroyed by creatures in a manner similar to how one stops creature-based threats (although with planeswalkers your attacking to destroy rather than blocking or provoking blocks).
Therefore it gives each color an opportunity to both win with a non-creature based threat (even if the threat itself wins by generating creatures its ultimately a non-creature source) and destroy said non-creature threat using the universal element of creatures (even if blue has weaker creatures, it can deal with planeswalkers as well as green via counter-magic, bounce and evasion).
In early magic design its seems as though a player was considered a resource. Life gain and damage prevention was a much greater focus (when you take into account the entirety of the card pool) than generating card advantage. However as time moved on people realized that a player by itself can't do jack-squat without cards. Removing all of a player's resources and threats leaves the player helpless. While we are supposed to take the role of planeswalkers, the fact we rely on cards means even with unlimited energy we can't do a thing without a card to channel it into some sort of threat. A planeswalker is a method of solving that problem by turning a "teammate" into a card. You create a "player" that only needs a single card and will always "draw a spell" that they can cast. Thus, there is always a threat. There is always something for creatures and players to attack even if their opponent has nothing else.
First we had Island Sanctuary, Moat and Rod of Ruin.
Then we had Cursed Scroll, Null Brooch and Ensnaring Bridge.
Then we had the cycle of "Words" and even Flashback.
Then we had Hondens and a slew of re-usable artifice.
And now we have planeswalkers.
They are all methods to win the game without creatures...
Custom Set: Pokemon: Generation 1
My mind numbing DC-10 stack!
planeswalker block?
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'