I thiink they stopped using them when they became too hard to keep up with. Same thing for 0/-1 counters and 0/-2 counters. They become too tacky and clunky. Stick with -1/-1 counters and it becomes neater and not as clunky. I for one want wither to make a comeback its neat and very good and not hard to explain to noobies playing for the first time
The issue with split second is that it removes another layer of interactivity. "Does that spell have split second? Yeah? Sigh...no responses...AGAIN." If you think people are *****ing too much about counterspells being neutered NOW, just imagine if there were multiple useful spells with split second in the environment too. The notion that split second "balances out the format" doesn't make a lick of sense because the mechanic naturally favors aggressive builds that trade tricks for speed. Guess what the meta favors right now?
As for potential evergreen mechanics, Cycling seems like the most obvious. Simple and to-the-point, and they wouldn't even have to print anything with cycling abilities to use it (simple stuff like the Urza's cycling lands would be enough).
The issue with split second is that it removes another layer of interactivity. "Does that spell have split second? Yeah? Sigh...no responses...AGAIN." If you think people are *****ing too much about counterspells being neutered NOW, just imagine if there were multiple useful spells with split second in the environment too. The notion that split second "balances out the format" doesn't make a lick of sense because the mechanic naturally favors aggressive builds that trade tricks for speed. Guess what the meta favors right now?
That is why I included the idea of cards w/ "seasonal" keywords coming in & out. And do you think more than 2 cards w/ Split Second would be in any standard environment? They wouldn't. It's a peppered keyword. And w/ my idea of the seasonal keyword, the card would be around for only a year... unless there's possitive demand for it.
I still don't really get why the distinction between "block" and "evergreen" mechanics exist at all. A keyword is just an abbreviation for an ability on a card. For example, I could keyword Verdant Force in this way:
Verdant Force
Creature - Elemental 7/7, 5GGG (8)
Spore (At the beginning of each upkeep, put a 1/1 green Saproling creature token onto the battlefield.)
So, if "Spore" was a "block" keyword, it can't be used in the core set or in future sets, because it's not "evergreen". Seems silly to me that the ability to generate a 1/1 Saproling each turn is no longer able to printed, just because it got keyworded. Oh, sure, they could print such a card (e.g. Verdant Embrace) without the "Spore" keyword, but then people might complain they didn't use the term for it.
There are many fine cards that could be printed using old mechanics, but they aren't, because the mechanic isn't evergreen. This reduces design space. The only way to use an old mechanic is to "revisit" it in the current block with a bunch of cards, which seems silly. For example, I'd love to see a single new Buyback card once in a while.
Oh, sure, they could print such a card (e.g. Verdant Embrace) without the "Spore" keyword, but then people might complain they didn't use the term for it.
And here is the reason why WoTC doesn't keyword every bit of text that pops up on a bunch of cards. There's a reason why sets have certain themes and cycles that don't rely on ability words or keywords. Keywords only exist if they have a particularly interesting and/or unique function. There's a lot of work that goes into determining what is and what isn't keywordable. The vast majority of keywords fit into a certain set's theme and not any other's. And on the topic of sprinkling keywords into sets: that's a bad idea, in my opinion. Personally, I'd feel very strange about having one or two buyback cards thrown into a set. A keyword either needs to be basic (like the evergreen ones) or have a lot of support from the set's theme to exist and play well without standing out in a very awkward way.
Please give me a few examples of an instant that would hinder the caster if it were to be Split Second.
It's not a matter of whether it would hinder the caster. In order for a spell to work well with Split second, it needs to:
Be an instant
Be a spell people would want to have the opportunity to respond to (otherwise the ability is pointless)
Not be overpowered with split second attached (this rules out a lot of powerful or versatile instants)
Not make gameplay less interesting with split second attached (this rules out printing a second split second counterspell when one's already in the environment, or otherwise making wide use of the ability on multiple different cards spread out over seven standard-legal sets)
Not make a card excessively complex (this rules out using it on a common, ever)
What I would not mind seeing, if 20 is a max amount of keywords, is having maybe something like "featured keywords" per core set. Maybe have 4 keywords that come in for a short bit, then 1 year later, 2-4 of those keywords (I say 2-4 cause they may get something waaayyyy right & it is wanted in the next set) rotate out, & an equal number roll in.
Four is too many, IMO (a core set only has 229 cards to go around) but I do like the idea that, now that the coreset is no longer strictly a reprint set, they could feature a different returning block mechanic in it each year as a way to mix things up.
For example, I'd love to see a single new Buyback card once in a while.
Part of the purpose of keywords is to help people remember what different cards do by having multiple different cards that share functionality in the same environment. When you start sprinking one or two cards of different keywords into a set, this advantage is lost and what you're left with instead is a ton of complexity that's difficult to navigate. This is exactly the trouble you run into with Time Spiral block -- it's very cool that all these keywords came back and had new cards printed, but trying to navigate all of them (in TPF draft, for example) can become quite overwhelming.
I dont like kicker as an "evergreen" because its variable cost (similar to the cycling cost being variable from card to card) and maybe its me but its horrible compared to "multikicker" which is far more intuitive as it is. I know several newer players who either think they can kick a spell more than once, or have to constantly ask if they can and why not... its gets even worse when i multikick something and it gets stated as "kicked 3 times". Because of that kicker can't.
A new one that i would actually REALLY like to see is
Illusion (When this permanent is targeted by a spell or ability sacrifice it.)
maybe a different name all together like Cower or something but its one that i can see making it into evergreen status.
I dont like kicker as an "evergreen" because its variable cost (similar to the cycling cost being variable from card to card) and maybe its me but its horrible compared to "multikicker" which is far more intuitive as it is. I know several newer players who either think they can kick a spell more than once, or have to constantly ask if they can and why not... its gets even worse when i multikick something and it gets stated as "kicked 3 times". Because of that kicker can't.
A new one that i would actually REALLY like to see is
Illusion (When this permanent is targeted by a spell or ability sacrifice it.)
maybe a different name all together like Cower or something but its one that i can see making it into evergreen status.
The reason Kicker and Cycling may have some semblance of a chance is because they're pretty much universal. They can be on cards of any color, any type. That's not to say abilities have to be; most aren't (trample - mostly green, flying - white/blue), but they're simple, affect the game well, and have always been a positive influence on the game. I would also argue that Kicker isn't nearly as complicated as some may think it is; all you need is a good explanation.
As for your suggested ability, we see maybe one card like that a set, if we're lucky. It's really narrow, and wouldn't make sense in a Core Set at all. Not to mention it being a historically blue ability, it's a drawback. Wizards doesn't like printing drawback abilities; they got rid of Islandhome as soon as they realized what a mistake it was. Also, that ability implies some sort of specific flavor to it, and Core Sets are for the most generic flavors possible.
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Wither acts more like an evergreen ability than the others mentioned in this thread, but uses -1/-1 counters. Why did they stop using -1/-1 counters anyway?
Edit: It also nullifies regeneration, so that's another reason why it wouldn't a core mechanic.
Agreed! I know wither is was designed to mirror the +1/+1 counter abilities of the Lorwyn block, but I think its a great ability on its own.
Any passive ability that makes a 3/3 think twice about blocking a 1/1 is ok in my book...
And on the topic of sprinkling keywords into sets: that's a bad idea, in my opinion. Personally, I'd feel very strange about having one or two buyback cards thrown into a set. A keyword either needs to be basic (like the evergreen ones) or have a lot of support from the set's theme to exist and play well without standing out in a very awkward way.
You are missing the point here of my point I had made. The sprinkling would would be 2-4 seasonal keywords. In the core set, there could 4 or 5 cards that have a seasonal keyword. Enough to play around with in a standard deck or in a limitted environment.
Also, adding new keyword cards could possibly open up new terrain for older cards with that keyword. Possiblilites may just be infinite (just a hyperbole folks, do not literally mean forever & forever).
You are missing the point here of my point I had made. The sprinkling would would be 2-4 seasonal keywords. In the core set, there could 4 or 5 cards that have a seasonal keyword. Enough to play around with in a standard deck or in a limitted environment.
Also, adding new keyword cards could possibly open up new terrain for older cards with that keyword. Possiblilites may just be infinite (just a hyperbole folks, do not literally mean forever & forever).
I've wanted to see returning mechanics since I played with Future Site. I have a few older cards and it's fun to mix them with newer cards. The Core set may not be the best place to do this but if the seasonal cards are kept at uncommon and above rarity the impact on confusion should be minimal.
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by ninja squirrels either. - Dr. Wilson
Again. No. All of these mechanics are very block specific mechanics. Just more wishful thinking.
How is split second block specific? Try making sense please. Its pretty similar to "can't be countered" which is already in the core set. Bushido is only block specific by name, I'm talking about the mechanic, so, I'm sorry Mr I just like saying no cuz I think I'm better than everyone else, but I'm right.
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I know he thinks I'm impressed by a 102 MPH fastball in the 9th inning... Ok, I'm impressed, but that doesn't mean I can't crush it.
I think the problem with Fear is that that the creatures that had fear instilled fear in others, which isn't really what having fear means. If you have fear, you're afraid. If you instill fear in others, then you're scary. I think most of us would agree that "scary" isn't a good keyword name. Intimidate seems okay for me and works better because it's based on the creatures color instead of being tied to black. I'm in the group of people who think making Fear a keyword was a mistake.
I mean, I absolutely loved the Time Spiral block but it has 33 different keywords in it - not counting evergreen ones. That's also excluding mechanics that weren't keyworded. For the record, the existing list of evergreen keywords can be found here: http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Evergreen
That's 19 (18 really, since Fear is gone) that can be in the base set. I could only see maybe 2 more abilities getting added. Keep in mind, Shroud and Reach were both added just with Future Sight. As of right now, there are a total of 88 keyworded abilities.
Of those, I think Split Second could work well on one or two rare cards. My next choice is an odd one but I think Fortify could be very interesting.
Everyone needs to get over what Fear may or may not mean, and accept that it means that the creature causes Fear in other creatures. Intimidate is fine for red, but stupid for black. Fear was the most flavorful ability ever keyworded.
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I know he thinks I'm impressed by a 102 MPH fastball in the 9th inning... Ok, I'm impressed, but that doesn't mean I can't crush it.
TheD
How is split second block specific? Try making sense please. Its pretty similar to "can't be countered" which is already in the core set.
How about trying to find another block where time/space was being warped.
And since "can't be countered" is already in core(which you failed to point out was only 3 cards total, and only in red & green) split second isn't needed in core.
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WOut of the ground,I rise to grace...W BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
For the record, double strike may have been designed as an evergreen but was put in an expansion set. On the other hand, Flash was not. Flash was designed as a Time Spiral BLOCK MECHANIC RELATING TO TIME, and has become an evergreen mechanic that does show up in core sets.
I'd like to see Lure or Provoke as a core set ability. I would also like to see Absorb. There's SOOOO much design space for Absorb that it's not even funny.
In an eight player game, is anything good? Don't you just sit there countering combos until someone genesis waves for 42 after all the blue players tap out fighting over a bribery?
Tribal, definitely. They should start using that type more, on things like Crucible of Fire for starters. Or else change it from a card type to a supertype like it should be, since there will never be a "tribal" printed because it doesn't have its own rules.
Other than that, the regulars are fine for me. I wouldn't mind seeing Cycling, Flash, or Kicker though. Split Second seems too wordy and requires understanding of "the stack" (which Wizards doesn't seem to like). Dredge would be interesting to revisit as a block mechanic but will never be put into a core set.
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Old terminology reference:
Play (noun): Battlefield
Play (verb): Cast/Play
RFG: Exile
CIP: Enters the Battlefield
we all saw how well blue creatures with flash worked out back in lorwyn. im cool with green creatures having flash though, cause you know, having some critter jump out of a bush screams SURPRISE.
Anyway, I'd actually like Regeneration and Fear to make a comeback. Wizards stated the wanted regen to make a comeback, but they haven't done much about it. As for fear... Come on, that just screams black.
I think Core set keywords should be obvious and requires little explanation.
Flying, first strike, and trample, for example, are easy to understand.
Kudos to RG, Phd for the elegance and simplicity of these.
Fear is quite obvious, and although Intimidate is a better mechanic, is not too obvious mechanically (I mean, what does color have to do with intimidation?!? - Its not as obvious why a non flyer cannot block a flyer)
Cycling is always good candidate mechanically, but it does not really connect with the fantasy genre... "cycling" is not a word commonly connected to wizardry.
For me, I think the current set of keywords are fine as it is.
Everyone needs to get over what Fear may or may not mean, and accept that it means that the creature causes Fear in other creatures. Intimidate is fine for red, but stupid for black. Fear was the most flavorful ability ever keyworded.
You can be intimidated for many reasons you know. The creature with intimidate could be charismatic (white), cruel (black), viscious (blue), massive (green), aggressive (red). And color-changing cantrips could become really interesting effects to play on your intimidate guys now. Another reason why I'm all for intimidate.
Fear or Intimidate, Intimidate or Fear. I think I like the sound of fear more than I like how intimidate rolls off the tongue. Like TheD said, it just sounds more flavorful.
You're making me wish they kept Fear but errata the lexicon so as to define Fear as "can't be blocked except by artifact creatures/or creatures that share a color with it."
I'm surprised people haven't mentioned Exalted for a potential evergreen status. Marvelous design where you can have just 3-4 total creatures with it in the set, where it would still be effective AND would easily lend itself to creature flavorful design.
Another thought: why not evergreen and name fire-breathing or the super trample abilities?
Flash gives blue the sense power it so needs especially if its a good card.
Double strike need I say more easy to understand.
Cycling: If you dont like me discard me and draw another card. So if i need you I play u otherwise I go for another answer. Unfortunately Shards Cycle stuff stank so bad because the cards themselves were unplayable most of them in any context.
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As for potential evergreen mechanics, Cycling seems like the most obvious. Simple and to-the-point, and they wouldn't even have to print anything with cycling abilities to use it (simple stuff like the Urza's cycling lands would be enough).
UBDragonlord Silumgar WGKarametra, God of Harvests
BRUNekusar, the Mindrazer BGMazirek, Kraul Death Priest
URMelek, Izzet Paragon UGPrime Speaker Zegana
WUHanna, Ship's Navigator BWUSydri, Galvanic Genius
WUBRGSliver Queen RBBladewing the Risen
WBKarlov of the Ghost Council RGXenagos, God of Revels
GFreyalise, Llanowar's Fury RWAurelia, the Warleader
RIb Halfheart, Goblin Tactician BDrana, Liberator of Malakir
UAzami, Lady of Scrolls WNahiri, the Lithomancer
WBGDoran, the Siege Tower CEmrakul, the Promised End
That is why I included the idea of cards w/ "seasonal" keywords coming in & out. And do you think more than 2 cards w/ Split Second would be in any standard environment? They wouldn't. It's a peppered keyword. And w/ my idea of the seasonal keyword, the card would be around for only a year... unless there's possitive demand for it.
Verdant Force
Creature - Elemental 7/7, 5GGG (8)
Spore (At the beginning of each upkeep, put a 1/1 green Saproling creature token onto the battlefield.)
So, if "Spore" was a "block" keyword, it can't be used in the core set or in future sets, because it's not "evergreen". Seems silly to me that the ability to generate a 1/1 Saproling each turn is no longer able to printed, just because it got keyworded. Oh, sure, they could print such a card (e.g. Verdant Embrace) without the "Spore" keyword, but then people might complain they didn't use the term for it.
There are many fine cards that could be printed using old mechanics, but they aren't, because the mechanic isn't evergreen. This reduces design space. The only way to use an old mechanic is to "revisit" it in the current block with a bunch of cards, which seems silly. For example, I'd love to see a single new Buyback card once in a while.
And here is the reason why WoTC doesn't keyword every bit of text that pops up on a bunch of cards. There's a reason why sets have certain themes and cycles that don't rely on ability words or keywords. Keywords only exist if they have a particularly interesting and/or unique function. There's a lot of work that goes into determining what is and what isn't keywordable. The vast majority of keywords fit into a certain set's theme and not any other's. And on the topic of sprinkling keywords into sets: that's a bad idea, in my opinion. Personally, I'd feel very strange about having one or two buyback cards thrown into a set. A keyword either needs to be basic (like the evergreen ones) or have a lot of support from the set's theme to exist and play well without standing out in a very awkward way.
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It's not a matter of whether it would hinder the caster. In order for a spell to work well with Split second, it needs to:
Four is too many, IMO (a core set only has 229 cards to go around) but I do like the idea that, now that the coreset is no longer strictly a reprint set, they could feature a different returning block mechanic in it each year as a way to mix things up.
Part of the purpose of keywords is to help people remember what different cards do by having multiple different cards that share functionality in the same environment. When you start sprinking one or two cards of different keywords into a set, this advantage is lost and what you're left with instead is a ton of complexity that's difficult to navigate. This is exactly the trouble you run into with Time Spiral block -- it's very cool that all these keywords came back and had new cards printed, but trying to navigate all of them (in TPF draft, for example) can become quite overwhelming.
A new one that i would actually REALLY like to see is
Illusion (When this permanent is targeted by a spell or ability sacrifice it.)
maybe a different name all together like Cower or something but its one that i can see making it into evergreen status.
The reason Kicker and Cycling may have some semblance of a chance is because they're pretty much universal. They can be on cards of any color, any type. That's not to say abilities have to be; most aren't (trample - mostly green, flying - white/blue), but they're simple, affect the game well, and have always been a positive influence on the game. I would also argue that Kicker isn't nearly as complicated as some may think it is; all you need is a good explanation.
As for your suggested ability, we see maybe one card like that a set, if we're lucky. It's really narrow, and wouldn't make sense in a Core Set at all. Not to mention it being a historically blue ability, it's a drawback. Wizards doesn't like printing drawback abilities; they got rid of Islandhome as soon as they realized what a mistake it was. Also, that ability implies some sort of specific flavor to it, and Core Sets are for the most generic flavors possible.
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Agreed! I know wither is was designed to mirror the +1/+1 counter abilities of the Lorwyn block, but I think its a great ability on its own.
Any passive ability that makes a 3/3 think twice about blocking a 1/1 is ok in my book...
You are missing the point here of my point I had made. The sprinkling would would be 2-4 seasonal keywords. In the core set, there could 4 or 5 cards that have a seasonal keyword. Enough to play around with in a standard deck or in a limitted environment.
Also, adding new keyword cards could possibly open up new terrain for older cards with that keyword. Possiblilites may just be infinite (just a hyperbole folks, do not literally mean forever & forever).
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I've wanted to see returning mechanics since I played with Future Site. I have a few older cards and it's fun to mix them with newer cards. The Core set may not be the best place to do this but if the seasonal cards are kept at uncommon and above rarity the impact on confusion should be minimal.
There's no proof she's being chased
by ninja squirrels either. - Dr. Wilson
How is split second block specific? Try making sense please. Its pretty similar to "can't be countered" which is already in the core set. Bushido is only block specific by name, I'm talking about the mechanic, so, I'm sorry Mr I just like saying no cuz I think I'm better than everyone else, but I'm right.
Everyone needs to get over what Fear may or may not mean, and accept that it means that the creature causes Fear in other creatures. Intimidate is fine for red, but stupid for black. Fear was the most flavorful ability ever keyworded.
Gives Blue a added weapon fast defense.
Transmute:
I can discard this and baby tutor for the card with same converted mana cost I am so there.
Morph:
I want to see this back. Lots of things can be still done right with this ability.
How about trying to find another block where time/space was being warped.
And since "can't be countered" is already in core(which you failed to point out was only 3 cards total, and only in red & green) split second isn't needed in core.
BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
I'd like to see Lure or Provoke as a core set ability. I would also like to see Absorb. There's SOOOO much design space for Absorb that it's not even funny.
Thanks to DarkNightCavalier
Other than that, the regulars are fine for me. I wouldn't mind seeing Cycling, Flash, or Kicker though. Split Second seems too wordy and requires understanding of "the stack" (which Wizards doesn't seem to like). Dredge would be interesting to revisit as a block mechanic but will never be put into a core set.
Play (verb): Cast/Play
RFG: Exile
CIP: Enters the Battlefield
Fetchland: Arid Mesa
Shockland: Watery Grave
M10 Dual: Glacial Fortress
we all saw how well blue creatures with flash worked out back in lorwyn. im cool with green creatures having flash though, cause you know, having some critter jump out of a bush screams SURPRISE.
Lol...
Anyway, I'd actually like Regeneration and Fear to make a comeback. Wizards stated the wanted regen to make a comeback, but they haven't done much about it. As for fear... Come on, that just screams black.
The candles burn out for you; I am free.
Flying, first strike, and trample, for example, are easy to understand.
Kudos to RG, Phd for the elegance and simplicity of these.
Fear is quite obvious, and although Intimidate is a better mechanic, is not too obvious mechanically (I mean, what does color have to do with intimidation?!? - Its not as obvious why a non flyer cannot block a flyer)
Cycling is always good candidate mechanically, but it does not really connect with the fantasy genre... "cycling" is not a word commonly connected to wizardry.
For me, I think the current set of keywords are fine as it is.
Fear or Intimidate, Intimidate or Fear. I think I like the sound of fear more than I like how intimidate rolls off the tongue. Like TheD said, it just sounds more flavorful.
You're making me wish they kept Fear but errata the lexicon so as to define Fear as "can't be blocked except by artifact creatures/or creatures that share a color with it."
I'm surprised people haven't mentioned Exalted for a potential evergreen status. Marvelous design where you can have just 3-4 total creatures with it in the set, where it would still be effective AND would easily lend itself to creature flavorful design.
Another thought: why not evergreen and name fire-breathing or the super trample abilities?
Flash gives blue the sense power it so needs especially if its a good card.
Double strike need I say more easy to understand.
Cycling: If you dont like me discard me and draw another card. So if i need you I play u otherwise I go for another answer. Unfortunately Shards Cycle stuff stank so bad because the cards themselves were unplayable most of them in any context.