With the rise of Vampires in Zendikar, does anyone here think there's a chance Wizards might throw in a few good zombies into Worldwake so we have more than one black competitive tribal archtype? Or will they just continue printing new vampires? I really hope for more good zombies.
I think they'll try something new, with vampires being sort of a "support" tribe for vampires.
Like...
Rare Vampire GuyBBBB
Legendary Creature - Vampire
Sacrifice a zombie at the beginning of your upkeep or sacrifice ~.
All zombies you control have deathtouch.
All non-token zombies you control have first strike.
2/2
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'll be sad if people don't start calling The Chain Veil "Fleetwood Mac."
I'm hoping for just a few more to pop up so that between the two lords and the other meager zombie offerings in Alara, we can build at least a fun, casual zombie deck. Perhaps more nulls since they are the supporting group to the vampires.
And we now have both soldiers and Kor for white "tribes" being represented, so I don't see the idea of a second black tribe being out of the question.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard: BRG Jund Midrange GRB //// B Vampire Aggro B //// WRU Patriot Control URW
Extended: RGW Zoo WGR
Legacy: RUG Canadian Thresh GUR
I think they'll try something new, with vampires being sort of a "support" tribe for vampires.
Isn't this exactly what happened already? I assume you meant Zombies supporting Vampires, which makes sense since there is already a relationship there with Mindless Null (the only damn Zombie in ZEN).
Isn't this exactly what happened already? I assume you meant Zombies supporting Vampires, which makes sense since there is already a relationship there with Mindless Null (the only damn Zombie in ZEN).
I disagree. I think they're slowly phasing out zombies as the main black tribe, for a myriad reasons stated in the past.
I hope this is the case I think vampires are a much better tribe than zombies. They have a better mechanical identity and because they are intelligent and have needs other than a source of magic provided by their creator they actually have a culture which gives them an interesting flavor. They also finally give black its own species for weenies rather than just the dead member of the other colors species (I know the vamps are actually dead humans but it doesn't feel that way nearly as much as it does with zombies). I mean just look at how much more interesting the flavor of black is with vampires on Zendikar than with zombies on Grixis. On Zendikar the vampires are organized and cultured. They can work with the other species of Zendikar if it suits them and have enough power and intelligence to have constructed one of the only cities on Zendikar. Also as was indicated in the recent web comics they can take initiative to satisfy curiosity and to help their community as a whole, showing that they can have blue and white traits even if there still primarily black. The zombies of Grixis just mindlessly go around and kill any living creatures they can find. The only time this is different is when they are forced into an army by a powerful individual, then they go around and just kill mindlessly where they are told to go. My final reason for preferring vampires over zombies is that (promo Vampire Nocturnuses aside) I think the average vampire art is just plain better than the average Zombie art.
As for the threads topic they are definitely are not going to switch to tribal zombies after how heavily vampire tribal black is in Zendikar (not to mention how heavily vampire flavored it is). This is even more the case because Vampires are brand new as a tribe and thus need more cards to give them tribal effects, to act as weenies, and to iron in there overall mechanical identity (given how little the when opponent is at ten or less life trigger was used I wouldn't be surprised to see it on vampires in future sets, similar to how goblins have sac effects and haste, elves tap for mana and care about the number of elves in play, and maybe how merfolk have tap effects (haven't seen enough of them since Lorowyn to confirm but both the lord from M10 and the countering guy from Zendikar seem to indicate as much)). I think vampire will keep being the main black weenie at least through Rise of the Eldrazi (prosper's actual name), because even with it being another large block I don't think they plan on changing the tribes present.
Edit- I used to have an apology here but realized that it is applicable for almost all of my posts so I siged it.
I apologize for the length (I tend to need to follow my train of thought to the end before proceeding to the next, resulting in overly long posts, papers, and monologues in conversations) and for the copious amount of parentheses.
I think they'll try something new, with vampires being sort of a "support" tribe for vampires.
Like...
Rare Vampire GuyBBBB
Legendary Creature - Vampire
Sacrifice a zombie at the beginning of your upkeep or sacrifice ~.
All zombies you control have deathtouch.
All non-token zombies you control have first strike.
2/2
I think they will never print a card that gives first strike to Zombies. (Stillmoon Cavalier is an exception since its a knight also.)
I think they'll try something new, with vampires being sort of a "support" tribe for vampires.
Like...
Rare Vampire GuyBBBB
Legendary Creature - Vampire
Sacrifice a zombie at the beginning of your upkeep or sacrifice ~.
All zombies you control have deathtouch.
All non-token zombies you control have first strike.
2/2
That has little to do with Vampires, specially with those in Zen. It doesn't care about other Vampires, it has no relationship with the "10 life or less" thing. In my opinion, it's just a Zombie Lord with a non-Zombie creature tipe. I don't say it's a bad card, I'm saying it doesn't fit in Zendikar or Worldwake.
Also, I read somewhere that we would see the "10 life or less" mechanic expanded in Worldwake, and that makes it the big improvement of black in the set. Being a small set, there would be little design space to include BOTH more support to "10 life or less" AND "Zombies help Vampires (Or the other way round)". Two, or three Zombies, some other Mindless to make it a "splash" for flavor's sake, but not as a sub-theme. If they are like Mindless, they aren't competitive (I haven't tried drafting Vampires and picking a Mindless, that's the only chance of working well that guy has).
I think that they will print more Vamps, make it a powerful tribe (Not as powerful as Faeries, not as lasting as Goblins or Elves), enjoy them, and then rotate them out. If New Phyrexia turns out to be a set, then there will be lots of zombies in future Standard.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Mostly Casual player :rolleyes:.
"I don't know why people say a double-edged sword is bad. It's a sword. With two edges."
—Kamahl, pit fighter.
Oh come on, Sengir, Szadeck, now Sorin, all insta-faves.
How many zombie lords have a fanbase?
Zombies are cool, Romero's movies are awesome, but they can't be anything more than slaves, mindless or forced. Vampires are as human as elves and goblins, and that's what makes them awesome.
They can be grim Addams Family style (like the Sengir barony), slavers (Soul Collector), beasty (Skeletal, Moroii), rogue (Vein drinker, Stalking Bloodsucker), and even clan/tribal, societal creatures that work together towards an end.
If zombies come back, I hope they are single bombs rather than tribal, vampires and faeries should be tribal, spirits, zombies, demons, skeletons, etc. flavourful singles.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Yes sir, I take fantasy art and character design commissions, PM me for rates.
I think zombies got started because it's the obvious thing for necromancers to do. They find corpses and animate zombies/skeletons out of them. That's different from all the other colors who got sentient races though, and the latter approach wins out, because more people want to get sucked into their "minions" being cool, as opposed to being cool just for having minions.
I hope this is the case I think vampires are a much better tribe than zombies. They have a better mechanical identity and because they are intelligent and have needs other than a source of magic provided by their creator they actually have a culture which gives them an interesting flavor. They also finally give black its own species for weenies rather than just the dead member of the other colors species (I know the vamps are actually dead humans but it doesn't feel that way nearly as much as it does with zombies).
I don't think that they are getting rid of zombies in anyway they are just trying to give black a second playable iconic race. Much like green, for example, has elves and beasts or red has goblins and dragons. So we will see more zombies in the future but likely not in WWK.
Also an interesting fact, the vampires of ZEN are actually not dead but infected with a disease that makes them hunger for blood. This is stated in the Player's guide for ZEN.
So... they are pseudo vamps? That is so lame. They act like vamps but arent vamps...
Basically they are trying to be like the infected from 28 Days. How ultra douche.
Does it matter that much? I've never found the fact that they were undead to be the most important or interesting thing about vampires. I'd rather not have any more types of undead in this game than we already have... zombies, skeletons, spirits, shades, wraiths, specters, vampires... it's okay if the most "energetic" of the group gets promoted back to living in my book.
These guys really ought to be one type, and Beyer's explanation for them not being so was total BS.
Where was this explanation?
Anyway, it's not like the "great creature type errata" actually fixed all the problems with the Creature Type system. It's still ridiculous that Phyrexians are split across types including Zombie, Minion, Carrier, Golem, Construct, Dreadnought, and Horror when they're all basically supposed to be the same "kind" of thing.
Ah, yeah, that is a pretty bad answer. It actually makes it look worse than I thought -- Specter is at least a type that covers a tournament-used, popular mechanic, but Wraith is completely pointless.
I think it's good that Creative has decided to move away from Zombies -- which are creatively limited and inappropriate in many settings -- as black's only small signature race, and I think there's enough diversity to support multiple "types" of Undead, but the diversity we have now is excessive. To really "distinguish" effectively, we really only need four types: Vampire, Skeleton, Zombie, and Ghost.
(His answer about Quests is lousy too. "Is there a card in this specific set that needs these to share a subtype" is actually a terrible standard to use; they should assign subtypes to every large enough set of mechanically-unified enchantments or artifacts.)
I agree with you, charlequin, though I think Specter should be a creature type as well. Shade should be phased out (as the ability always seemed more white and green and maybe even red to me), and Wraith should be absorbed into Spirit.
It actually makes it look worse than I thought -- Specter is at least a type that covers a tournament-used, popular mechanic, but Wraith is completely pointless.
Oh yeah, it definitely had the feel of an answer without reason. He answered that way because all Wraiths have Swampwalk and therefore that's what makes Wraith's special.
I think it's good that Creative has decided to move away from Zombies -- which are creatively limited and inappropriate in many settings -- as black's only small signature race
Agreed. Although it will likely feel weird if every world has a huge vampire population kicking around.
His answer about Quests is lousy too. "Is there a card in this specific set that needs these to share a subtype" is actually a terrible standard to use
I do believe him though. They are very conservative about using sub-types on enchantments and spells (Instants and Sorceries) and in all the years of magic, they've only had one of each (both from Kamigawa actually). Personally, I think this is one area where they really could expand and make better. While I don't see much validity in a "spell" block in the same way as a tribal block. There is a lot of flavour and small mechanical benefit to be had by connecting certain creatures, groups, or places with certain spell types. Something as simple as a series of "Tactics" instants and sorceries that soldiers could have a small mechanical connection to, ie. on a Soldier creature have "whenever you play a Tactic, put a 1/1 white soldier creature token onto the battlefield".
Maybe this will change one day, but until then, I suspect they will keep having a heavy push away from using subtypes on non-creatures.
Agreed. Although it will likely feel weird if every world has a huge vampire population kicking around.
Not necessarily. If they need to explain it at all, they could just say that Baron Sengir has, for thousands of years, been gradually spreading vampires throughout the multiverse.
http://magikero01.wordpress.com/
Please see my online binder
http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/hipster.drop99
Like...
Rare Vampire Guy BBBB
Legendary Creature - Vampire
Sacrifice a zombie at the beginning of your upkeep or sacrifice ~.
All zombies you control have deathtouch.
All non-token zombies you control have first strike.
2/2
And we now have both soldiers and Kor for white "tribes" being represented, so I don't see the idea of a second black tribe being out of the question.
BRG Jund Midrange GRB //// B Vampire Aggro B //// WRU Patriot Control URW
Extended:
RGW Zoo WGR
Legacy:
RUG Canadian Thresh GUR
EDH:
U Arcum Dagsson U //// WB Teysa, Orzhov Scion BW //// UR Jhoira of the Ghitu RU
Special thanks to spiderboy4 of High~Light Studios for the banner
Isn't this exactly what happened already? I assume you meant Zombies supporting Vampires, which makes sense since there is already a relationship there with Mindless Null (the only damn Zombie in ZEN).
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
Quest for the Gravelord wants a word with you...
But yeah, with the new Zombie lord in M10 it makes sense for there to be at least some zombie tribal support in the block.
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
- Main Cube
- No Brains, All Feelings Cube
I hope this is the case I think vampires are a much better tribe than zombies. They have a better mechanical identity and because they are intelligent and have needs other than a source of magic provided by their creator they actually have a culture which gives them an interesting flavor. They also finally give black its own species for weenies rather than just the dead member of the other colors species (I know the vamps are actually dead humans but it doesn't feel that way nearly as much as it does with zombies). I mean just look at how much more interesting the flavor of black is with vampires on Zendikar than with zombies on Grixis. On Zendikar the vampires are organized and cultured. They can work with the other species of Zendikar if it suits them and have enough power and intelligence to have constructed one of the only cities on Zendikar. Also as was indicated in the recent web comics they can take initiative to satisfy curiosity and to help their community as a whole, showing that they can have blue and white traits even if there still primarily black. The zombies of Grixis just mindlessly go around and kill any living creatures they can find. The only time this is different is when they are forced into an army by a powerful individual, then they go around and just kill mindlessly where they are told to go. My final reason for preferring vampires over zombies is that (promo Vampire Nocturnuses aside) I think the average vampire art is just plain better than the average Zombie art.
As for the threads topic they are definitely are not going to switch to tribal zombies after how heavily vampire tribal black is in Zendikar (not to mention how heavily vampire flavored it is). This is even more the case because Vampires are brand new as a tribe and thus need more cards to give them tribal effects, to act as weenies, and to iron in there overall mechanical identity (given how little the when opponent is at ten or less life trigger was used I wouldn't be surprised to see it on vampires in future sets, similar to how goblins have sac effects and haste, elves tap for mana and care about the number of elves in play, and maybe how merfolk have tap effects (haven't seen enough of them since Lorowyn to confirm but both the lord from M10 and the countering guy from Zendikar seem to indicate as much)). I think vampire will keep being the main black weenie at least through Rise of the Eldrazi (prosper's actual name), because even with it being another large block I don't think they plan on changing the tribes present.
Edit- I used to have an apology here but realized that it is applicable for almost all of my posts so I siged it.
Link to personality test
I apologize for the length (I tend to need to follow my train of thought to the end before proceeding to the next, resulting in overly long posts, papers, and monologues in conversations) and for the copious amount of parentheses.
I think they will never print a card that gives first strike to Zombies. (Stillmoon Cavalier is an exception since its a knight also.)
That has little to do with Vampires, specially with those in Zen. It doesn't care about other Vampires, it has no relationship with the "10 life or less" thing. In my opinion, it's just a Zombie Lord with a non-Zombie creature tipe. I don't say it's a bad card, I'm saying it doesn't fit in Zendikar or Worldwake.
Also, I read somewhere that we would see the "10 life or less" mechanic expanded in Worldwake, and that makes it the big improvement of black in the set. Being a small set, there would be little design space to include BOTH more support to "10 life or less" AND "Zombies help Vampires (Or the other way round)". Two, or three Zombies, some other Mindless to make it a "splash" for flavor's sake, but not as a sub-theme. If they are like Mindless, they aren't competitive (I haven't tried drafting Vampires and picking a Mindless, that's the only chance of working well that guy has).
I think that they will print more Vamps, make it a powerful tribe (Not as powerful as Faeries, not as lasting as Goblins or Elves), enjoy them, and then rotate them out. If New Phyrexia turns out to be a set, then there will be lots of zombies in future Standard.
"I don't know why people say a double-edged sword is bad. It's a sword. With two edges."
—Kamahl, pit fighter.
How many zombie lords have a fanbase?
Zombies are cool, Romero's movies are awesome, but they can't be anything more than slaves, mindless or forced. Vampires are as human as elves and goblins, and that's what makes them awesome.
They can be grim Addams Family style (like the Sengir barony), slavers (Soul Collector), beasty (Skeletal, Moroii), rogue (Vein drinker, Stalking Bloodsucker), and even clan/tribal, societal creatures that work together towards an end.
If zombies come back, I hope they are single bombs rather than tribal, vampires and faeries should be tribal, spirits, zombies, demons, skeletons, etc. flavourful singles.
I don't think that they are getting rid of zombies in anyway they are just trying to give black a second playable iconic race. Much like green, for example, has elves and beasts or red has goblins and dragons. So we will see more zombies in the future but likely not in WWK.
Also an interesting fact, the vampires of ZEN are actually not dead but infected with a disease that makes them hunger for blood. This is stated in the Player's guide for ZEN.
Basically they are trying to be like the infected from 28 Days. How ultra douche.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
These guys really ought to be one type, and Beyer's explanation for them not being so was total BS.
Where was this explanation?
Anyway, it's not like the "great creature type errata" actually fixed all the problems with the Creature Type system. It's still ridiculous that Phyrexians are split across types including Zombie, Minion, Carrier, Golem, Construct, Dreadnought, and Horror when they're all basically supposed to be the same "kind" of thing.
Allow me: http://wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/stf/59
- Main Cube
- No Brains, All Feelings Cube
Ah, yeah, that is a pretty bad answer. It actually makes it look worse than I thought -- Specter is at least a type that covers a tournament-used, popular mechanic, but Wraith is completely pointless.
I think it's good that Creative has decided to move away from Zombies -- which are creatively limited and inappropriate in many settings -- as black's only small signature race, and I think there's enough diversity to support multiple "types" of Undead, but the diversity we have now is excessive. To really "distinguish" effectively, we really only need four types: Vampire, Skeleton, Zombie, and Ghost.
(His answer about Quests is lousy too. "Is there a card in this specific set that needs these to share a subtype" is actually a terrible standard to use; they should assign subtypes to every large enough set of mechanically-unified enchantments or artifacts.)
- Main Cube
- No Brains, All Feelings Cube
Oh yeah, it definitely had the feel of an answer without reason. He answered that way because all Wraiths have Swampwalk and therefore that's what makes Wraith's special.
Agreed. Although it will likely feel weird if every world has a huge vampire population kicking around.
I do believe him though. They are very conservative about using sub-types on enchantments and spells (Instants and Sorceries) and in all the years of magic, they've only had one of each (both from Kamigawa actually). Personally, I think this is one area where they really could expand and make better. While I don't see much validity in a "spell" block in the same way as a tribal block. There is a lot of flavour and small mechanical benefit to be had by connecting certain creatures, groups, or places with certain spell types. Something as simple as a series of "Tactics" instants and sorceries that soldiers could have a small mechanical connection to, ie. on a Soldier creature have "whenever you play a Tactic, put a 1/1 white soldier creature token onto the battlefield".
Maybe this will change one day, but until then, I suspect they will keep having a heavy push away from using subtypes on non-creatures.
Not necessarily. If they need to explain it at all, they could just say that Baron Sengir has, for thousands of years, been gradually spreading vampires throughout the multiverse.
- Main Cube
- No Brains, All Feelings Cube