Now that we know the whole list of cards for Shadowmoor, and it is chockablock with "dark" versions of the LW legends, it is time to recognize the certainty of the dark PW names in the next set.
I thought they'd be in this set, but since there is already so much wow-factor with Q and whatnot in SH, they'll need some major spice to add to eventide.
And what more grabby way to do it than pws?
The other slamdunk evidence is the subtype of each PW. I mean it would not make sense for them to put "Garruk" on the subtypeline if'n we weren't going to see him again, colorshifted and whatnot, in this same megablock.
They're waiting for the last set of the megablock to give it a nice book-end dealio, as well as providing R&D the most time to see how PWs panned out before going to print with the next round of 'em.
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Well maybe, maybe not. Wizards never told us how they would release future PW's other then "They won't be in every set, we want them to be something special."
It makes sense, although they wouldn't necessarily have to print the new versions of the current planeswalkers in this block. They do walk between planes after all, so they could show up just about anywhere.
Yeah, they may it a big point to state that they weren't a part of any given plan like lorowyn. Besides, from a flavor standpoint I don't see something like the auroa or whatever it was effecting something as powerful as a PW.
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Yes, just like it was guaranteed that Planeswalkers were going to be in Shadowmoor. Good god, I can't tell you the number of people that swore that was going to happen and told me that the art for Oona was proof.
Unless WotC comes out and says "yes, they're in Eventide, the cards are printed and there's no way we can remove them from the set," then there is no "lock" to it. What you have here is simply a guess you have pulled out your arse. Big difference.
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I simply cannot believe that Wizards would put "dark" versions of the Planeswalkers in Eventide. Flavor-and story-wise the planeswalkers never actually appear on Lorwyn. As I recall, the only reason that the cards themselves were in the Lorwyn set is because they hadn't been fully fleshed out for Future Sight, which is where they were intended to be. Even if they were on the plane of Lorwyn during the Aurora, why would they be affected by the change? They are not part of the plane.
We know that Oona, among others, were not affected; though we don't know exactly why Oona wasn't (it has something to do with Lorwyn/Shadowmoor being her plane) so we know that it is possible to avoid the change caused by the Aurora.
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i disagree. The planeswalkers in Lorwyn have nothing at all to do with the back-story of Lorwyn itself, they just put them in the first big set release that was coming after they had settled on a version of Planeswalkers they thought was good enough to print. There's no reason at all why we should expect "dark" Planeswalkers in Eventide. They weren't a Lorwyn block cycle, they just happened to be printed in Lorwyn Block. I think we'll get new Planeswalkers whenever Wizards feels like they've designed some new ones that are good enough to print.
They are not *lock* to be in Eventide at all. They are flavorwise unrelated to Lorwyn, they are now the intended "faces" of Magic, they have been said to be used very scarcely by MaRo...etc., etc.
Just read this and this thread....the arguments that can be applicable also to the presence/absence Eventide are stated clearly there, and I feel no need to retype them here.
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Stop. They aren't coming back, for quite a long time.
This is as silly a conclusion as the conclusion that they're "a lock" for Eventide.
Planeswalkers are a new part of the game. They will continue to appear in future sets. There's no more evidence to support "quite a long time" than "definitely in Eventide"; other than putting an upper bound on it (I don't think there's any way R&D will allow Standard to rotate into an environment with zero PWs in it) there's not much we can do but wait until more show up -- we don't have enough info to predict what pattern they'll settle into yet.
Well it sure is not surprising that the backlash is strong.
of course I'm "pulling it out of my arse." It is speculative.
But I am not one of those that "always start threads like this," and feel that I've earned enough capital here to make a claim like this.
Arguing that because it has been randomly asserted for two sets (Morningtide and Shadowmoor) therefore invalidate the chance of it coming it the last set is really not that persuasive. This is the first set that will allow symmetry due to the bookend concept.
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Personally, I think Planeswalkers should only be printed once every two blocks, and just one for each color every time. I thought it was ridiculous that everyone thought Wizards would actually make more Planeswalkers in Morningtide, and even in Shadowmoor.
That being said, I think that there will probably be Planeswalkers in Alara. This is because it's a block about five separate planes, each based around a color. Also, after the first batch, players are hungry for more Planeswalkers, and they were already disappointed by Morningtide and Shadowmoor. But I think that after Alara, they'll probably be printed rarely, like once every Standard rotation.
EDIT: WOW. I thought you were talking about Alara, not Eventide! This is ridiculous. There is no way that Wizards would print Planeswalkers in a small set like this, let alone IN THE SAME BLOCK AS THE FIRST ONES. There is absolutely no way that there will be Planeswalkers in Eventide.
I think there is a good chance of Alara really with how popular they are and how much hype they generate.
I think they would be fools from a financial standpoint to stop printing them. They also obviously put a large amount of work into making a new card type. No point to limit them so much especially if the next group is multi-colored to prevent massive planeswalker use in deck xyz.
I think it was a good idea to do a one to each color distribution for their first outing, but now, why do planeswalkers have to be limited to that pattern in the future? If someone on a set design has a cool idea for a planeswalker, consider printing, and that's that.
And then, once you get away from this idea of printing them in rigid groups of five, it doesn't become so bad to put planeswalkers in each set; just do one or two to each set, and you're good to go.
At that point, Wizards is happy; they're making money and not overdoing the planeswalkers, all your different player groups are happy, including both those that are aware of possible design mistakes, and those that just want cool cards in their boosters. Its all win, there.
I think that the likeliness of us getting NEW planeswalkers is not like before our first planeswalkers rotate out. However, I think we can hope to see our Planeswalkers (jace, garruk, ajani, etc.) be reprinted in new versions, such as more experienced and powerful versions or versions that have adapted to the new Plane they are walking on.
I would rather they make original PWs few and far between, rather then have to resort to making different versions of already introduced PWs just to supply demand. On the other hand, I certainly wouldn't mind some 'time manipulation' for the sake of printing us Urza, Karn, Nicol Bolas, etc. etc. in PW form. Yes, I understand the story reasons this shouldn't happen, I don't care, give me an alternate timeline if necessary, I want Dominaria's finest.
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Odds are they won't print any more planeswalkers until the "Live" block. I would say around a 70% chance. I would give "Lights" about a 40% chance of having the next ones. Alara I would give about a 10% chance.
I just get the feeling that they don't want to have 2 sets of walkers in standard at the same time.
I remember MaRo saying something along the lines that they would print more walkers eventually, but it will be a little longer than most people would expect. Which is why I was getting a little chuckle reading all the "Planeswalkers are gonna be in Shadowmoor" threads.
I would say definitely not in Eventide.
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I think it was a good idea to do a one to each color distribution for their first outing, but now, why do planeswalkers have to be limited to that pattern in the future?
They don't. In fact, Rosewater and Forsythe said outright that the next planeswalkers we saw would not be printed in this fashion.
And then, once you get away from this idea of printing them in rigid groups of five, it doesn't become so bad to put planeswalkers in each set; just do one or two to each set, and you're good to go.
Right. Let's say Wizards wants every block to have an average of 3-7 planeswalkers. (There's no way they have a number that much lower than this in mind. The idea that they'd only print any each time the last set were ready to rotate out is ridiculous.) Lorwyn, by frontloading a set of five into the very first set, limited its options, thereby keeping it from printing many/any PWs in the remaining three sets of the megablock. But in future years, they can print two in the first set, and one in the third; or three/one/two, or zero/three/three, or whatever.
Because we know that "unpredictability" and "similar to how legends are used" are their guidelines for how PWs will be distributed (and because they want to maintain the momentum of their new card type) it's quite unlikely that any full year block will pass without seeing more, or that they'll be printed in large spurts followed by huge absences anymore, once we escape the current megablock structure.
I remember MaRo saying something along the lines that they would print more walkers eventually, but it will be a little longer than most people would expect.
What people "expected" was for them to appear in the very next set. Waiting as much as three years after that wouldn't be "a little longer," it'd be an order of magnitude longer. At that point, PWs would be a returning block mechanic, not an evergreen new card type as they have explicitly been stated to be. There is no reason whatsoever from the evidence we have access to at the moment to believe that they'd wait this long, instead of continuing to seed the game with PWs at an uneven but not ludicrously rare pace.
What people "expected" was for them to appear in the very next set. Waiting as much as three years after that wouldn't be "a little longer," it'd be an order of magnitude longer. At that point, PWs would be a returning block mechanic, not an evergreen new card type as they have explicitly been stated to be. There is no reason whatsoever from the evidence we have access to at the moment to believe that they'd wait this long, instead of continuing to seed the game with PWs at an uneven but not ludicrously rare pace.
Sorry, "a little longer" was my wording of what MaRo said. I couldn't remember exactly what he had said. I got the quote now though. Sorry for any misunderstanding.
Quote from Mark Rosewater 1/7/08 »
This, of course, brings up the obvious question: what does Morningtide do with planeswalkers? I'll try to pull the band-aid off quickly. What does Morningtide do with planeswalkers? Nothing. There are no planeswalkers in Morningtide.
But didn't we say that planeswalkers are a permanent addition to Magic? We did and they are, but we've chosen to handle planeswalkers differently from other card types. The planeswalker card type was created to make the planeswalker concept have more relevance both inside the game and out. The planeswalkers are an important part of Magic's future and as such we felt it was crucial to integrate them mechanically into the game. Even moreso, we wanted to integrate them in a way that made them important and gave them focus. Of all our tasks in Lorwyn, it was the introduction of the planeswalkers that I feel was our greatest success.
What this means is that R&D has chosen to treat planeswalkers as something very special. To this end, we have made the conscious decision of quality over quantity. We want every planeswalker to matter. To do this, we just have to make a lot less of them than we do of any other card type. This means that not every set will have planeswalkers and when they do appear they will come in smaller numbers. But when you do see them, you can know that we've taken the time and energy to make them something special.
In addition, we are going to make the planeswalkers a bigger element of Magic in general, which means while you won’t see planeswalker cards every set, you will have other opportunities to learn more about who the planeswalkers are and how they influence the world of Magic. More planeswalker cards will come, but at a slower pace than I believe most of our audience currently expects. My comments today are meant to better set these expectations.
To me that screams that they might only print enough to have one set of walkers in Standard at a time. I got no basis what so ever, just my personal feeling.
Once every other block makes sense. I don't throw out the idea of them being printed every block though, that could still be the way they plan on doing it. I just don't see them printing multiples in the same block though, which is why I ruled out Shadowmoor and Eventide from the get go.
This is as silly a conclusion as the conclusion that they're "a lock" for Eventide.
Planeswalkers are a new part of the game. They will continue to appear in future sets. There's no more evidence to support "quite a long time" than "definitely in Eventide"; other than putting an upper bound on it (I don't think there's any way R&D will allow Standard to rotate into an environment with zero PWs in it) there's not much we can do but wait until more show up -- we don't have enough info to predict what pattern they'll settle into yet.
Maro stated, I believe, that he wants to make them special. Something that you look at and say, "wow!", and I see that as meaning we're not going to see any Planeswalkers until Lorwyn rotates (new Planeswalkers when there's already five in the format isn't really special).
Maro stated, I believe, that he wants to make them special. Something that you look at and say, "wow!", and I see that as meaning we're not going to see any Planeswalkers until Lorwyn rotates (new Planeswalkers when there's already five in the format isn't really special).
You cant really be sure can you? we might get at least one before it rotates...
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2 years to wait for Planeswalkers is ridiculous they can be special like I've said before 51 legends in legends.
That was the new card type and they went all out Planeswalkers are good but 10 in T2 at once is not some sort of insane brokenness.
Even if they are not the same legendary type as the originals that still would only be 2 per color. Not that insane unless there abilities are so synergistic there is no reason not to run them together.
I thought they'd be in this set, but since there is already so much wow-factor with Q and whatnot in SH, they'll need some major spice to add to eventide.
And what more grabby way to do it than pws?
The other slamdunk evidence is the subtype of each PW. I mean it would not make sense for them to put "Garruk" on the subtypeline if'n we weren't going to see him again, colorshifted and whatnot, in this same megablock.
They're waiting for the last set of the megablock to give it a nice book-end dealio, as well as providing R&D the most time to see how PWs panned out before going to print with the next round of 'em.
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Unless WotC comes out and says "yes, they're in Eventide, the cards are printed and there's no way we can remove them from the set," then there is no "lock" to it. What you have here is simply a guess you have pulled out your arse. Big difference.
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They are not *lock* to be in Eventide at all. They are flavorwise unrelated to Lorwyn, they are now the intended "faces" of Magic, they have been said to be used very scarcely by MaRo...etc., etc.
Just read this and this thread....the arguments that can be applicable also to the presence/absence Eventide are stated clearly there, and I feel no need to retype them here.
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Stop. They aren't coming back, for quite a long time.
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LOL. That is a true statement but...
This is as silly a conclusion as the conclusion that they're "a lock" for Eventide.
Planeswalkers are a new part of the game. They will continue to appear in future sets. There's no more evidence to support "quite a long time" than "definitely in Eventide"; other than putting an upper bound on it (I don't think there's any way R&D will allow Standard to rotate into an environment with zero PWs in it) there's not much we can do but wait until more show up -- we don't have enough info to predict what pattern they'll settle into yet.
of course I'm "pulling it out of my arse." It is speculative.
But I am not one of those that "always start threads like this," and feel that I've earned enough capital here to make a claim like this.
Arguing that because it has been randomly asserted for two sets (Morningtide and Shadowmoor) therefore invalidate the chance of it coming it the last set is really not that persuasive. This is the first set that will allow symmetry due to the bookend concept.
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What I mean is that we will not see a new set of Plainswalkers until Lorwyn block rotates out of Standard.
That way they would still seem like rare individuals flavorwise, otherwise it might seem like you bump into them all over the multiverse.
just my speculation anyway.
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That being said, I think that there will probably be Planeswalkers in Alara. This is because it's a block about five separate planes, each based around a color. Also, after the first batch, players are hungry for more Planeswalkers, and they were already disappointed by Morningtide and Shadowmoor. But I think that after Alara, they'll probably be printed rarely, like once every Standard rotation.
EDIT: WOW. I thought you were talking about Alara, not Eventide! This is ridiculous. There is no way that Wizards would print Planeswalkers in a small set like this, let alone IN THE SAME BLOCK AS THE FIRST ONES. There is absolutely no way that there will be Planeswalkers in Eventide.
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I think they would be fools from a financial standpoint to stop printing them. They also obviously put a large amount of work into making a new card type. No point to limit them so much especially if the next group is multi-colored to prevent massive planeswalker use in deck xyz.
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And then, once you get away from this idea of printing them in rigid groups of five, it doesn't become so bad to put planeswalkers in each set; just do one or two to each set, and you're good to go.
At that point, Wizards is happy; they're making money and not overdoing the planeswalkers, all your different player groups are happy, including both those that are aware of possible design mistakes, and those that just want cool cards in their boosters. Its all win, there.
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I just get the feeling that they don't want to have 2 sets of walkers in standard at the same time.
I remember MaRo saying something along the lines that they would print more walkers eventually, but it will be a little longer than most people would expect. Which is why I was getting a little chuckle reading all the "Planeswalkers are gonna be in Shadowmoor" threads.
I'll try and find the direct quote.
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They don't. In fact, Rosewater and Forsythe said outright that the next planeswalkers we saw would not be printed in this fashion.
Right. Let's say Wizards wants every block to have an average of 3-7 planeswalkers. (There's no way they have a number that much lower than this in mind. The idea that they'd only print any each time the last set were ready to rotate out is ridiculous.) Lorwyn, by frontloading a set of five into the very first set, limited its options, thereby keeping it from printing many/any PWs in the remaining three sets of the megablock. But in future years, they can print two in the first set, and one in the third; or three/one/two, or zero/three/three, or whatever.
Because we know that "unpredictability" and "similar to how legends are used" are their guidelines for how PWs will be distributed (and because they want to maintain the momentum of their new card type) it's quite unlikely that any full year block will pass without seeing more, or that they'll be printed in large spurts followed by huge absences anymore, once we escape the current megablock structure.
What people "expected" was for them to appear in the very next set. Waiting as much as three years after that wouldn't be "a little longer," it'd be an order of magnitude longer. At that point, PWs would be a returning block mechanic, not an evergreen new card type as they have explicitly been stated to be. There is no reason whatsoever from the evidence we have access to at the moment to believe that they'd wait this long, instead of continuing to seed the game with PWs at an uneven but not ludicrously rare pace.
Sorry, "a little longer" was my wording of what MaRo said. I couldn't remember exactly what he had said. I got the quote now though. Sorry for any misunderstanding.
To me that screams that they might only print enough to have one set of walkers in Standard at a time. I got no basis what so ever, just my personal feeling.
Once every other block makes sense. I don't throw out the idea of them being printed every block though, that could still be the way they plan on doing it. I just don't see them printing multiples in the same block though, which is why I ruled out Shadowmoor and Eventide from the get go.
Maro stated, I believe, that he wants to make them special. Something that you look at and say, "wow!", and I see that as meaning we're not going to see any Planeswalkers until Lorwyn rotates (new Planeswalkers when there's already five in the format isn't really special).
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You cant really be sure can you? we might get at least one before it rotates...
That was the new card type and they went all out Planeswalkers are good but 10 in T2 at once is not some sort of insane brokenness.
Even if they are not the same legendary type as the originals that still would only be 2 per color. Not that insane unless there abilities are so synergistic there is no reason not to run them together.
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