well, i didnt see another thread on this, and it seemed to me that since this shadowmore is the dark reflection of lorowyn, so to speak, i just thought that clash could come back, but have negitive effects based on losing, rather than possitive effects based on winning
and example (please note that though i made an example card, that is not the topis of this thread, mearly an illistration of what im talking about)
creepy dark name 1B
destroy target nonblack creature, it cannot be regenerated
clash with an oponent: if you loose the clash, sacrifice a creature
Shadowmoor isn't supposed to share the same mechanics as Lorwyn. Mechanically, it was developed seperately so there won't be any Clash cards in it or Eventide.
has it been confirmed that none of the block mechanics are going to cross over into SHA/EVE?
I think clash is an excellent limited mechanic, and should be explored more.
Excellent limited mechanic? I strongly disagree. They only printed like 2 top of the deck manipulation commons/uncommons so it's completely random how clash works. And if they made a sensei's top reprint then winning every time = always win.
I like clash as well. To be honest, I was disappointed that they didn't give blue and black enchantments that triggered off of clashing in Morningtide. That said, if MaRo's repeated claims that Shadomoor was created like a seperate miniblock are true then they simply can't carry over mechanics from Lorwyn like Clash. Shadowmoor isn't even going to be drafted along with Lorwyn so the benifits that Clash bring to that format won't even be relavent then and there are other mechanics that can do the job just as well (such as cycling). The Shadowmoor mini-block and the Lorwyn mini-block are designed to work well together but that really is a stronger version of inter-block design that MaRo has been championing for some time now. It is true that they will be put together for the block constructed format, but that has more to due with there not being enough events to support them being seperate rather than anything else.
Shadowmoor isn't a miniset following up Lorwyn. It will have it's own basic lands. It will have it's own themes. It will have it's own mechanics.
It smooths draws, helping avoid mana screw/flood, creates little moments of tension, and is all around interesting. As long as the effects of winning/losing the clash aren't absurdly game-swinging, I think it's one of the finest limited mechanics we've had for a long time.
well, i didnt see another thread on this, and it seemed to me that since this shadowmore is the dark reflection of lorowyn, so to speak, i just thought that clash could come back, but have negitive effects based on losing, rather than possitive effects based on winning
and example (please note that though i made an example card, that is not the topis of this thread, mearly an illistration of what im talking about)
creepy dark name 1B
destroy target nonblack creature, it cannot be regenerated
clash with an oponent: if you loose the clash, sacrifice a creature
Why would they print blatantly unfun cards? One thing I remember R&D saying they wanted to avoid with clash cards where one mode is useless. Like a card that gives -2/-2 to a creature or -4/-4 if you win the clash. Kind of worthless if you have to hit a 3/3. This card is just no fun.
I'll also jump in with others that have said Lorwyn and Shadowmoor share no mechanics. I personally think that's a shame in regards to Clash since there aren't enough good clash cards to build around Rebellion and Trap. I was hoping Shadowmoor would bring some more but I guess tis not to be. I guess wizards didn't want another Astral Slide. Though to be honest, I never felt Slide and Rift were broken cards, just good.
I like clash as well. To be honest, I was disappointed that they didn't give blue and black enchantments that triggered off of clashing in Morningtide. That said, if MaRo's repeated claims that Shadomoor was created like a seperate miniblock are true then they simply can't carry over mechanics from Lorwyn like Clash. Shadowmoor isn't even going to be drafted along with Lorwyn so the benifits that Clash bring to that format won't even be relavent then and there are other mechanics that can do the job just as well (such as cycling). The Shadowmoor mini-block and the Lorwyn mini-block are designed to work well together but that really is a stronger version of inter-block design that MaRo has been championing for some time now. It is true that they will be put together for the block constructed format, but that has more to due with there not being enough events to support them being seperate rather than anything else.
Shadowmoor isn't a miniset following up Lorwyn. It will have it's own basic lands. It will have it's own themes. It will have it's own mechanics.
im still not convinced that the mechanic couldnt come back, it couldnt come back as working the same way, but fosussing on the loss \, rather than the win really changes things, but i could be wrong, though the fact that the second set is called eventide suggests to me there could be some duallity and simularity between the blocks
No mechanics are shared between Lorwyn and Shadowmoor, period. This is one of the first facts we learned about the set. Any speculation that requires such mechanic sharing is not going to prove correct.
Mechanics will not be shared, but new (or old) mechanics that have synchronicity with Lorwyn's would be fair game. Either Fateseal or Scry would fit perfectly with Clash/Kinship while still having a reasonable impact on the game in a "vacuum" as it were.
Remember: Just as SHA/EVE will be seeded with creatures that share tribes with LOR/MOR, LOR/MOR is almost certainly seeded with cards that, whether subtle or blatant, interact well with whatever mechanics SHA/EVE has.
EDIT: IF Clash does return for some reason, I could conceivably see them setting up the card so that losing the clash has a positive effect. This could lead to an interesting metagame of high-cost clash decks vs. low-cost clash decks, though by "interesting" I'm not certain that I mean "fun". Being punished for losing/winning a clash on your own card will never happen. It just makes for a frustratingly unfun card too much of the time.
IF Clash does return for some reason, I could conceivably see them setting up the card so that losing the clash has a positive effect. This could lead to an interesting metagame of high-cost clash decks vs. low-cost clash decks, though by "interesting" I'm not certain that I mean "fun". Being punished for losing/winning a clash on your own card will never happen. It just makes for a frustratingly unfun card too much of the time.
No, this is not good. The game naturally favours low-cost cards as reaching higher mana costs is harder. Having an added effect for having a cheap deck would hose higher-costing cards, and haven't they suffered enough already?
That said, I'd like to see more Clash in the future, possible with "if you win" and "if you lose" conditions. That way the stalemate (i.e. both reveal land) could be neutral ground. I really liked the idea behind Captivating Glance, although it's a bugger for reliability.
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Gaymer
Custom Card / Set Reviewer
When reviewing custom cards / sets, I look for (a) flavour, (b) function, and (c) cohesiveness, generally through a risk focus.
the only two clash cards i've seen that are played in standard were pollen remedy and titan's revenge. and even those are a rarity. i personally am waiting for the right deck to test the revenge out.
I read this thread title and thought it would be about when Joe Strummer died.
But yeah, when you clash, you have more outcomes than just
a) you win
b) you tie
c) you lose
Because you're revealing a card, you can have a clash mechanic with a triggered ability that cares what type, color, etc. is the card you or your opp reveal.
You actually only have two true outcomes of a clash (as per the rules primer for lorwyn).
1)You win
2)You don't win (not the same as losing)
There really is no losing a clash. I'm not sure why they did that, but those are the only two results possible for any clash. It's not really a big deal, though, as the cards could just be worded 'if you don't win' instead of 'if you lose'.
the only two clash cards i've seen that are played in standard were pollen remedy and titan's revenge. and even those are a rarity. i personally am waiting for the right deck to test the revenge out.
Titan's Revenge is awful and doesn't even see play in mana ramp decks. Lash Out however is really strong in this format. it doesn't see enough play in my opinion.
(Also, it was already stated but you can't "lose" a clash, you either win or don't win)
I like the idea of clash with negative outcomes. I think it would be great if they ever revisit the Lorwyn setting, but I don't think clash will return in Shadowmoor, due to the reasons already stated. I think it would be a good way to balance some classic cards. This is what I'd like to see:
Heat Bolt
R
Instant
Does 3 damage to any target.
Clash- If you don't win the clash, Heat Bolt does 3 damage to you.
I like the idea of clash with negative outcomes. I think it would be great if they ever revisit the Lorwyn setting, but I don't think clash will return in Shadowmoor, due to the reasons already stated. I think it would be a good way to balance some classic cards. This is what I'd like to see:
Heat Bolt
R
Instant
Does 3 damage to any target.
Clash- If you don't win the clash, Heat Bolt does 3 damage to you.
yeah i submit that its not happening, right now, but i really like the design of this card, very same basic concept, but probobly better executed, thank you, also in regards to the nonscence post, i disagree, firststrike is better than clash, though flying is indeed better than both
I like clash and just this morning posted a u/w/r Clash deck that is a blast to play. I hope they dont do away with clash as i think it has great potential. Especially if as suggested above they ad some blue or black or even some better green cards that will compare withRebellion of the Flamekin and Entangleing trap. Yes I understand that the next two sets wont have any but hopefully I wont have to wait to long.
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__________________ Thanks Mr. Stuff. for my awesome banner and avatar!
Playing these In T2! Hippy created!
R Explosive Doll R W Untouchable Knights W B No Sacrifice, No Victory! B
and example (please note that though i made an example card, that is not the topis of this thread, mearly an illistration of what im talking about)
creepy dark name 1B
destroy target nonblack creature, it cannot be regenerated
clash with an oponent: if you loose the clash, sacrifice a creature
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpgjnU7C3Aw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe7kkZixasc
I think clash is an excellent limited mechanic, and should be explored more.
I'd rather have scry one.
Shadowmoor isn't a miniset following up Lorwyn. It will have it's own basic lands. It will have it's own themes. It will have it's own mechanics.
It smooths draws, helping avoid mana screw/flood, creates little moments of tension, and is all around interesting. As long as the effects of winning/losing the clash aren't absurdly game-swinging, I think it's one of the finest limited mechanics we've had for a long time.
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Why would they print blatantly unfun cards? One thing I remember R&D saying they wanted to avoid with clash cards where one mode is useless. Like a card that gives -2/-2 to a creature or -4/-4 if you win the clash. Kind of worthless if you have to hit a 3/3. This card is just no fun.
I'll also jump in with others that have said Lorwyn and Shadowmoor share no mechanics. I personally think that's a shame in regards to Clash since there aren't enough good clash cards to build around Rebellion and Trap. I was hoping Shadowmoor would bring some more but I guess tis not to be. I guess wizards didn't want another Astral Slide. Though to be honest, I never felt Slide and Rift were broken cards, just good.
im still not convinced that the mechanic couldnt come back, it couldnt come back as working the same way, but fosussing on the loss \, rather than the win really changes things, but i could be wrong, though the fact that the second set is called eventide suggests to me there could be some duallity and simularity between the blocks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpgjnU7C3Aw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe7kkZixasc
Remember: Just as SHA/EVE will be seeded with creatures that share tribes with LOR/MOR, LOR/MOR is almost certainly seeded with cards that, whether subtle or blatant, interact well with whatever mechanics SHA/EVE has.
EDIT: IF Clash does return for some reason, I could conceivably see them setting up the card so that losing the clash has a positive effect. This could lead to an interesting metagame of high-cost clash decks vs. low-cost clash decks, though by "interesting" I'm not certain that I mean "fun". Being punished for losing/winning a clash on your own card will never happen. It just makes for a frustratingly unfun card too much of the time.
No, this is not good. The game naturally favours low-cost cards as reaching higher mana costs is harder. Having an added effect for having a cheap deck would hose higher-costing cards, and haven't they suffered enough already?
That said, I'd like to see more Clash in the future, possible with "if you win" and "if you lose" conditions. That way the stalemate (i.e. both reveal land) could be neutral ground. I really liked the idea behind Captivating Glance, although it's a bugger for reliability.
Custom Card / Set Reviewer
When reviewing custom cards / sets, I look for (a) flavour, (b) function, and (c) cohesiveness, generally through a risk focus.
But yeah, when you clash, you have more outcomes than just
a) you win
b) you tie
c) you lose
Because you're revealing a card, you can have a clash mechanic with a triggered ability that cares what type, color, etc. is the card you or your opp reveal.
1)You win
2)You don't win (not the same as losing)
There really is no losing a clash. I'm not sure why they did that, but those are the only two results possible for any clash. It's not really a big deal, though, as the cards could just be worded 'if you don't win' instead of 'if you lose'.
Backstabbing your friends for fun and profit
My Decks
EDH:
GVerdeloth the AncientG
Standard:
GWU Mana Denial UWG
Titan's Revenge is awful and doesn't even see play in mana ramp decks. Lash Out however is really strong in this format. it doesn't see enough play in my opinion.
(Also, it was already stated but you can't "lose" a clash, you either win or don't win)
Heat Bolt
R
Instant
Does 3 damage to any target.
Clash- If you don't win the clash, Heat Bolt does 3 damage to you.
yeah i submit that its not happening, right now, but i really like the design of this card, very same basic concept, but probobly better executed, thank you, also in regards to the nonscence post, i disagree, firststrike is better than clash, though flying is indeed better than both
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpgjnU7C3Aw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe7kkZixasc
__________________
Thanks Mr. Stuff. for my awesome banner and avatar!
Playing these In T2! Hippy created!
R Explosive Doll R
W Untouchable Knights W
B No Sacrifice, No Victory! B
How are these mechanics even related?
Currently losing with:
W Midrange White (Standard)
UB Faeries (Block)