By unconditional, I mean a card that says "Counter target spell". Counterspell, Rewind, and Forbid are examples. Not a card that says "Counter X kind of spell" or "Counter target spell unless..." or "Counter target spell if..." And of course there are rare exceptions - I even gave one, Dromar's Charm. And Vex totally slipped my mind. They don't even print all that many "unconditional" counters anymore, but I believe that they will continue to follow this rule fairly strictly.
Generally, the only playable "if" counter are the counter unless you play 3 spells. Well OK, its just mana leak.8^)
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"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
I personally think that we need a good hard counter that is costed arund 2 or 3. Not the conditional ones that we have been seeing as of late. Dont get me wrong mana leak and hinder are great but how often do u see a black destruction spell that says destroy target creature unless it's controller pays 3...or a red burn spell that says deal (someodd) dmg to target creature if it would be sent to the graveyard put it on top or bottom of it's owners library. I think they should just reprint undermine because it would fit nicely into the current set and it isn't super amazing just regular amazing.
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"Hate is just a special kind of love we give to those who suck" - Me
I personally think that we need a good hard counter that is costed arund 2 or 3. Not the conditional ones that we have been seeing as of late. Dont get me wrong mana leak and hinder are great but how often do u see a black destruction spell that says destroy target creature unless it's controller pays 3...or a red burn spell that says deal (someodd) dmg to target creature if it would be sent to the graveyard put it on top or bottom of it's owners library.
Nearly all black and red kill spells are conditional. Some, like Dark Banishing, Smother, or Strafe, are pretty blunt about it, but even burn and -X/-X spells can only kill creatures that are small enough. Cruel Edict is about as versatile as creature removal gets nowadays, and even that won't always get the creature you want, and is downright bad against something like Meloku, the Clouded Mirror. As for the Memory Lapse effect, other colors get that too - see Plow Under. Sure, blue gets stuff like Annul and Remove Soul, but the other colors have similar restrictions tacked onto their control-oriented cards - see Naturalize and Wrath of God. Additionally, blue frequently gets slightly more expensive cards that can deal with any spell, but very rarely do the other colors get something that can deal with any permanent in play. Vindicate is the only modern card with that effect that comes to mind, although Oblivion Stone comes fairly close. Then again, blue can use that too.
Discard and land destruction are the other disruption effects that can mirror the versatility of blue's countering, but really, blue isn't any more laden with conditional effects on its best control cards than the other colors are.
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I would love to see some new gold counterspells. We have had UUB and GUU counterspells, why not UUR or WUU now?
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first turn
Nick: I lay a swamp, tap, dark ritual...
Me: If you cast a hypnotic specter I'll punch you in the face
Nick:...ahh I take 3 points of mana burn
The reason I play black according to CrovaxtheCursed:
I personally think that we need a good hard counter that is costed arund 2 or 3. Not the conditional ones that we have been seeing as of late. Dont get me wrong mana leak and hinder are great but how often do u see a black destruction spell that says destroy target creature unless it's controller pays 3...or a red burn spell that says deal (someodd) dmg to target creature if it would be sent to the graveyard put it on top or bottom of it's owners library. I think they should just reprint undermine because it would fit nicely into the current set and it isn't super amazing just regular amazing.
Yeah and I could play with my foil Undermines from Invasion !!!!
there could be versions of a bleed guildmana spells...
odd counter
Counter target spell. You lose life to that spells converted mana cost unless UU was used to pay ~
not exactly the greatest counter :symru::symru:
Counter target spell. Unless you used UU to pay for ~, sacrifice lands equal to that spells mana cost minus 2
Counterspell is good, but not that great. Also, you can only have four of them. You must have UU untapped all the time in order to be able to counter anything, leaving you with few ways to play your own threats, nonetheless protect them.
Um... yeah, this is the strgedy that dominated many games. The problem is that have an unconditional counter cost UU did allow a blue player to drop threats and have mana open. In addition you could leave UU open easily and always bluff a counter spell, something hard to do with rewind or hinder. Finally CS was fast early on but just as effective later, A mana leak is a great early answer but pretty useless later on, where as a counterspell is still effective.
"Wall of Roots trades with Doran. Doran doesn't like Wall of Roots. You would think he might, as they are both trees. But Doran is a sociopathic tree. He and other trees don't get along – hell, he doesn't even get along with himself. Have you seen what happens when you cast two Dorans? Let me tell you, it isn't pretty." -Uri Peleg
Um... yeah, this is the strgedy that dominated many games. The problem is that have an unconditional counter cost UU did allow a blue player to drop threats and have mana open. In addition you could leave UU open easily and always bluff a counter spell, something hard to do with rewind or hinder. Finally CS was fast early on but just as effective later, A mana leak is a great early answer but pretty useless later on, where as a counterspell is still effective.
Please do not be rude, assume good faith. Anyway, I love counterspell, but seriously, any aggro deck would own counterspell completely. Also drawing any counter after the spell is played is just another case in which it is useless, unlike other removal. Only totally combo reliant decks are afraid of counterspell.
Besides, in order to play a 2/2 flying drake with counter backup, you need 5 mana. Remember that it is just a 2/2 that an opponent can easily outgun, and you can not just counter all of his/her creatures with those 4 counterspells.
Actually I have noticed a fair amount of rudeness on these forums.....curious.
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"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
Agreed, UB aggro is much more interesting than UB control. Perhaps better counters will come out with the UW guild in Dissension, which would be more appropriate.
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"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
Actually I have noticed a fair amount of rudeness on these forums.....curious.
He wasn't being rude at all... I don't understand how you got that. Is your first language something other than English? Seriously, disagreeing with someone isn't rude.
Please do not be rude, assume good faith. Anyway, I love counterspell, but seriously, any aggro deck would own counterspell completely. Also drawing any counter after the spell is played is just another case in which it is useless, unlike other removal. Only totally combo reliant decks are afraid of counterspell.
Besides, in order to play a 2/2 flying drake with counter backup, you need 5 mana. Remember that it is just a 2/2 that an opponent can easily outgun, and you can not just counter all of his/her creatures with those 4 counterspells.
Actually I have noticed a fair amount of rudeness on these forums.....curious.
Well, for one thing, Counterspells are most useful in dedicated control decks, especially ones with lots of other counterspells. You're going to be countering most things your opponent plays or drawing cards at the end of his turn, then dropping a single threat that can win because you're counterspelling all the opponnent's things.
Well, for one thing, Counterspells are most useful in dedicated control decks, especially ones with lots of other counterspells. You're going to be countering most things your opponent plays or drawing cards at the end of his turn, then dropping a single threat that can win because you're counterspelling all the opponnent's things.
Also, you definitely seemed more rude than him.
Whatever.
"Um... yeah, this is the strgedy that dominated many games."
This clearly sounds satirical which constitutes rudeness in this case. How was I "definitely" more rude then him? Please give a quote, like I just did.
Quote from rusty_peter »
He wasn't being rude at all... I don't understand how you got that. Is your first language something other than English? Seriously, disagreeing with someone isn't rude.
A agree, disagreeing with someone is not rude. I just don't like the "umm....yeah..." in a clearly negative context.
Click here to visit my userpage at Wikipedia, where I am currently an administrator.:cool2:
"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
also, a hard counter at 2cc won't happen without a drawback. otherwise, it'd just be Counterspell.
I believe that he was refering to 3 mana counters, which would be really good with the second color to add in another effect:) . There is no UUR or UUG counter, but there are similar 4 mana counters out already.
Click here to visit my userpage at Wikipedia, where I am currently an administrator.:cool2:
"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
Those are the only UUR and UUG spells we're allowed to have. that was the cycle of counters for that block. We shouldn't get UUR or UUG because we already have the most flavorful of those colors in 1UUG and 1UUR.
Voice of All he didn't say anything rude. what you quoted was not rude. Y'all need to be less sensitive so we can keep the discussion about the topic.
And that's speculation on Ravnica Counterspells
We've seen one conditional counterspell perhaps we'll see more? I love Exclude so maybe they'll reprint that with the Smash?
I like the idea of Bleed spells in both the classic sense and the way you described above LTG.
what about
Hex 2B
Instant
Counter target spell. You lose 2 life and each opponent may draw 2 cards unless U was used to pay for Hex.
What blue needs is a counter-spell creature. Not Spiketail Drake or anything, but maybe something like this:
Force Rat U1
Creature - Rat
You may play [card name] at any time you could play an instant.
When [card name] comes into play, you may counter target spell unless it's controller pays 1.
1/1
Voice of All he didn't say anything rude. what you quoted was not rude. Y'all need to be less sensitive so we can keep the discussion about the topic.
And that's speculation on Ravnica Counterspells
Cool, then I can be much less catious about what I say from now on. It seems that things like "sure....whatever", "off course....[even though you are completely wrong]"... don't seem to bother anyone around here, among other things. If I said that in normal dialogue, people would get angry at me, perhaps the fact that this is a forum gives more leniency. Either way, its all for the better. I am just going to relax from now on.:cool:
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"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
What blue needs is a counter-spell creature. Not Spiketail Drake or anything, but maybe something like this:
Force Rat U1
Creature - Rat
You may play [card name] at any time you could play an instant.
When [card name] comes into play, you may counter target spell unless it's controller pays 1.
1/1
I'd still cost that at UU. U for Force Spike U for a 1/1 body at instant speed.
I'd actually like if they reprinted Spiketail Hatchling.
Spiketail Hatchling is fun in Fish, it puts your opponent back a turn and gets in the damage since his ability does not require tapping.
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"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
I'd still cost that at UU. U for Force Spike U for a 1/1 body at instant speed.
I'd actually like if they reprinted Spiketail Hatchling.
I'm not saying it wouldn't be good, but it certainly wouldn't be "too good" for even a common, Spiketail Hatchling was a good creature... but since it was in 8th and Ravnica was probably done or going on when the 9th team decided to yank it, it's a no-go.
More importantly, the rat's not actually a good creature... it's just got a counterspell that makes it an instant creature... if you play him for his instant speed, you lose card advantage. If you play him for his counter-spell effect, you lose surprise.
I'm not saying it wouldn't be good, but it certainly wouldn't be "too good" for even a common, Spiketail Hatchling was a good creature... but since it was in 8th and Ravnica was probably done or going on when the 9th team decided to yank it, it's a no-go.
More importantly, the rat's not actually a good creature... it's just got a counterspell that makes it an instant creature... if you play him for his instant speed, you lose card advantage. If you play him for his counter-spell effect, you lose surprise.
The card you suggested isn't broken of course, but it's probably better to cost it at UU. I guess costing it at 1U isn't terrible. You may lose card advantage playing him at instant speed but you advance your board position (even if it is a 1/1 with no evasion). And hopefully you negate the card disadvantage by countering something. Otherwise, if you don't counter something, you'll be advancing your board position even more by having a creature and making them tap one more land.
I guess I could see it cost at 1U. But without evasion I'd rather have a 2/1 for UU
The card you suggested isn't broken of course, but it's probably better to cost it at UU. I guess costing it at 1U isn't terrible. You may lose card advantage playing him at instant speed but you advance your board position (even if it is a 1/1 with no evasion). And hopefully you negate the card disadvantage by countering something. Otherwise, if you don't counter something, you'll be advancing your board position even more by having a creature and making them tap one more land.
I guess I could see it cost at 1U. But without evasion I'd rather have a 2/1 for UU
But double-blue makes it hard to splash. And WOTC doesn't want to make everything hard to splash. Blue certainly doesn't get 2/1s for fun and prophit, it gets 2/1s on wizards who have yet to do their job, not on ones that did it when they come into play. It's not a hard concept, since this guy can 2 for 1, while Voidmage can't.
But double-blue makes it hard to splash. And WOTC doesn't want to make everything hard to splash. Blue certainly doesn't get 2/1s for fun and prophit, it gets 2/1s on wizards who have yet to do their job, not on ones that did it when they come into play. It's not a hard concept, since this guy can 2 for 1, while Voidmage can't.
Wizards does like making counters hard to splash unless there is a drawback like with Arcane Denial and Vex... or if the counter is very narrow. This could be narrow enough to cost 1U. But even then this guy can still 2 for 1 just by countering something and then blocking later. And Voidmage Prodigy, you seem to forget, says sacrifice ANY wizard. So it doesn't have to kill itself to be useful.
"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
All Praises be to Topher patron saint of sig banners thanx for the awesome banner.
Official member of the Orzhov Syndicate
"Hate is just a special kind of love we give to those who suck" - Me
Nearly all black and red kill spells are conditional. Some, like Dark Banishing, Smother, or Strafe, are pretty blunt about it, but even burn and -X/-X spells can only kill creatures that are small enough. Cruel Edict is about as versatile as creature removal gets nowadays, and even that won't always get the creature you want, and is downright bad against something like Meloku, the Clouded Mirror. As for the Memory Lapse effect, other colors get that too - see Plow Under. Sure, blue gets stuff like Annul and Remove Soul, but the other colors have similar restrictions tacked onto their control-oriented cards - see Naturalize and Wrath of God. Additionally, blue frequently gets slightly more expensive cards that can deal with any spell, but very rarely do the other colors get something that can deal with any permanent in play. Vindicate is the only modern card with that effect that comes to mind, although Oblivion Stone comes fairly close. Then again, blue can use that too.
Discard and land destruction are the other disruption effects that can mirror the versatility of blue's countering, but really, blue isn't any more laden with conditional effects on its best control cards than the other colors are.
About Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx:
Nick: I lay a swamp, tap, dark ritual...
Me: If you cast a hypnotic specter I'll punch you in the face
Nick:...ahh I take 3 points of mana burn
The reason I play black according to CrovaxtheCursed:
what?
uhm.
as said above, we.. got.. those..
also, a hard counter at 2cc won't happen without a drawback. otherwise, it'd just be Counterspell.
the rule of hard counters is minimum UU cost. if it has a drawback, it can be allowed to be less intensive/cheaper. for instance,
Dimir Meddling U
Instant
Counter target spell. You lose life equal to its converted mana cost.
would seem reasonable for Wizards to print. pretty bad, i guess, but it's a 2cc non-UU counterspell.
Yeah and I could play with my foil Undermines from Invasion !!!!
There was Rhystic Lightning sorta what you were talking about.
odd counter
Counter target spell. You lose life to that spells converted mana cost unless UU was used to pay ~
not exactly the greatest counter :symru::symru:
Counter target spell. Unless you used UU to pay for ~, sacrifice lands equal to that spells mana cost minus 2
or something
Um... yeah, this is the strgedy that dominated many games. The problem is that have an unconditional counter cost UU did allow a blue player to drop threats and have mana open. In addition you could leave UU open easily and always bluff a counter spell, something hard to do with rewind or hinder. Finally CS was fast early on but just as effective later, A mana leak is a great early answer but pretty useless later on, where as a counterspell is still effective.
I kill you with
it.
Please do not be rude, assume good faith. Anyway, I love counterspell, but seriously, any aggro deck would own counterspell completely. Also drawing any counter after the spell is played is just another case in which it is useless, unlike other removal. Only totally combo reliant decks are afraid of counterspell.
Besides, in order to play a 2/2 flying drake with counter backup, you need 5 mana. Remember that it is just a 2/2 that an opponent can easily outgun, and you can not just counter all of his/her creatures with those 4 counterspells.
Actually I have noticed a fair amount of rudeness on these forums.....curious.
"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
He wasn't being rude at all... I don't understand how you got that. Is your first language something other than English? Seriously, disagreeing with someone isn't rude.
Well, for one thing, Counterspells are most useful in dedicated control decks, especially ones with lots of other counterspells. You're going to be countering most things your opponent plays or drawing cards at the end of his turn, then dropping a single threat that can win because you're counterspelling all the opponnent's things.
Also, you definitely seemed more rude than him.
Whatever.
"Um... yeah, this is the strgedy that dominated many games."
This clearly sounds satirical which constitutes rudeness in this case. How was I "definitely" more rude then him? Please give a quote, like I just did.
A agree, disagreeing with someone is not rude. I just don't like the "umm....yeah..." in a clearly negative context.
"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
I believe that he was refering to 3 mana counters, which would be really good with the second color to add in another effect:) . There is no UUR or UUG counter, but there are similar 4 mana counters out already.
"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
Voice of All he didn't say anything rude. what you quoted was not rude. Y'all need to be less sensitive so we can keep the discussion about the topic.
And that's speculation on Ravnica Counterspells
We've seen one conditional counterspell perhaps we'll see more? I love Exclude so maybe they'll reprint that with the Smash?
I like the idea of Bleed spells in both the classic sense and the way you described above LTG.
what about
Hex 2B
Instant
Counter target spell. You lose 2 life and each opponent may draw 2 cards unless U was used to pay for Hex.
Force Rat U1
Creature - Rat
You may play [card name] at any time you could play an instant.
When [card name] comes into play, you may counter target spell unless it's controller pays 1.
1/1
Cool, then I can be much less catious about what I say from now on. It seems that things like "sure....whatever", "off course....[even though you are completely wrong]"... don't seem to bother anyone around here, among other things. If I said that in normal dialogue, people would get angry at me, perhaps the fact that this is a forum gives more leniency. Either way, its all for the better. I am just going to relax from now on.:cool:
"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
I'd still cost that at UU. U for Force Spike U for a 1/1 body at instant speed.
I'd actually like if they reprinted Spiketail Hatchling.
"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
I'm not saying it wouldn't be good, but it certainly wouldn't be "too good" for even a common, Spiketail Hatchling was a good creature... but since it was in 8th and Ravnica was probably done or going on when the 9th team decided to yank it, it's a no-go.
More importantly, the rat's not actually a good creature... it's just got a counterspell that makes it an instant creature... if you play him for his instant speed, you lose card advantage. If you play him for his counter-spell effect, you lose surprise.
The card you suggested isn't broken of course, but it's probably better to cost it at UU. I guess costing it at 1U isn't terrible. You may lose card advantage playing him at instant speed but you advance your board position (even if it is a 1/1 with no evasion). And hopefully you negate the card disadvantage by countering something. Otherwise, if you don't counter something, you'll be advancing your board position even more by having a creature and making them tap one more land.
I guess I could see it cost at 1U. But without evasion I'd rather have a 2/1 for UU
But double-blue makes it hard to splash. And WOTC doesn't want to make everything hard to splash. Blue certainly doesn't get 2/1s for fun and prophit, it gets 2/1s on wizards who have yet to do their job, not on ones that did it when they come into play. It's not a hard concept, since this guy can 2 for 1, while Voidmage can't.
Wizards does like making counters hard to splash unless there is a drawback like with Arcane Denial and Vex... or if the counter is very narrow. This could be narrow enough to cost 1U. But even then this guy can still 2 for 1 just by countering something and then blocking later. And Voidmage Prodigy, you seem to forget, says sacrifice ANY wizard. So it doesn't have to kill itself to be useful.