I love how people are like "Jace is OK, dunno if it'll be playable. Not being able to cast spells in your opponent's turn sucks." But in all of the Avaricious Dragon threads it's like "Card advantage is the most powerful thing in all of Magic: the Gathering. Not being able to cast spells in my opponent's turn means nothing if I get to draw an extra card!"
For what it's worth though... T3: play Jace, T4: play Avaricious Dragon, discard hand and flip Jace. COMBO!
Nissa is a stupidly ridiculous powerhouse. Borderland Ranger was a constructed staple, this Borderland Ranger has a planeswalker attached. If you cast it on turn 7, you can immediately play the land you just fetched and either draw another card or put a 4/4 into play.....and you still have four mana to use that turn. It's also pretty comparable to Mulldrifter, another Constructed powerhouse, in that you can play it either early or late.
Ingnoring this for a bit let's take a look at her PW side.
Her starting loyalty is only 3. Considering at which point in the game she comes down your opponent is very likely to have stuff on the field already then can just kill her immediately.
Her +1 is Coiling Oracle. OK that's pretty decent I have to admit but that late in the game I kinda expect that to be the case.
Her -2 is just so bad. This may have story reasons but it's seriously holding the card back. A single legendary 4/4 token with no other abilities doesn't quite cut in a world of Siege Rhinos and Tasigur, the Golden Fangs. Compare this to Nissa, Worldwaker who repeatably turns your lands into 4/4s with Trample. Or Sarkhan Unbroken who repeatably poops out 4/4s with Flying.
I don't even want to mention the ulitmate since she will flip so late already and since her starting loyalty is 3 and it's a -7 it's basically a non-entity.
I actually wonder if she isn't a bit of a design failure. Her abilities are definitely more in line with her actual mana cost but the requirement to get to utilize them makes it so that you actually have to compare her to the big cards that you could cast instead at that point.
I believe that Nissa will be viable in T2 creatureless/creature-light control.
She's the only flipwalker that has an ETB ability, and the only one that can reliably be flipped the turn that she comes into play. I'd agree with the statement that she's generally a poor choice for other archetypes, but being able to cast her on turn 7 with Dissolve mana up in UGx control (I'd like to experiment with a ramp/control brew) ensures that you'll get at least two cards, a card and an extra land drop, or a card and a 4/4 out of her - all strong effects for 3 mana. Access to a strong wincon/CA engine at this CMC is great for draw-go decks.
Ingnoring this for a bit let's take a look at her PW side.
Her starting loyalty is only 3. Considering at which point in the game she comes down your opponent is very likely to have stuff on the field already then can just kill her immediately.
Her +1 is Coiling Oracle. OK that's pretty decent I have to admit but that late in the game I kinda expect that to be the case.
Her -2 is just so bad. This may have story reasons but it's seriously holding the card back. A single legendary 4/4 token with no other abilities doesn't quite cut in a world of Siege Rhinos and Tasigur, the Golden Fangs. Compare this to Nissa, Worldwaker who repeatably turns your lands into 4/4s with Trample. Or Sarkhan Unbroken who repeatably poops out 4/4s with Flying.
I don't even want to mention the ulitmate since she will flip so late already and since her starting loyalty is 3 and it's a -7 it's basically a non-entity.
I actually wonder if she isn't a bit of a design failure. Her abilities are definitely more in line with her actual mana cost but the requirement to get to utilize them makes it so that you actually have to compare her to the big cards that you could cast instead at that point.
Well honestly, you can't play those actually powerful cards without the land in the first place, whereas Nissa can be played as early as turn 2 if you've got a Mystic, and then guarantees that you'll hit land #3 as well. Obviously on turn 7 or 8 or whatever, you'd rather have an Atarka, but you can't drop Atarka early.
I think Nissa is potentially good in Sultai Control. Her +1 is Courser of Kruphix on steroids. Her -2 isn't very good, that's for sure, but her +1 more than makes up for it and her ultimate is very relevant if you ever get there. If they print something that lets you dump land on the field then she'll be good, I believe, but if not then I guess only time will tell.
I fail to see the comparison with Borderland Ranger, who fixes your mana, especially when you have the strictly better Sylvan Rangers, and I'm not even talking about Wood Elves and friends.
In any case, I think she will be good in the right EDH deck and she will definitely be in my Hua Tuo's deck.
Jace will need to be built around probably. Played with delve spells, haste enablers, extra turns... I don't see him being really played in any format to be honest, and that's fine considering his historic.
I also totally fail to see how Chandra is good with storm? She doesn't work with Storm itself, but yes, Storm will cast enough rituals to make her flip the turn after she entered the battlefield. So she will do 5 damages the turn Storm goes off. Not sure it's worth 3 mana. Browbeat is 3 mana for 5 damages or even worse (3 cards) and isn't played in Legacy Storm. I'm not an experienced storm player, but in my experience, storm wants free spells, not a creature that doesn't do anything the turn it enters the battlefield.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
lol @ Nissa. Do they intend for that card to never ever see play? You're paying for a restricted Borderland Ranger that can't flip until you have 7 lands out? When does that happen? Turn 5 if you're lucky with Farseek and Rampant Growth? And even then, you get to...make a 4/4. Legendary. Who cares. Talk about bad.
Ingnoring this for a bit let's take a look at her PW side.
Her starting loyalty is only 3. Considering at which point in the game she comes down your opponent is very likely to have stuff on the field already then can just kill her immediately.
Her +1 is Coiling Oracle. OK that's pretty decent I have to admit but that late in the game I kinda expect that to be the case.
Her -2 is just so bad. This may have story reasons but it's seriously holding the card back. A single legendary 4/4 token with no other abilities doesn't quite cut in a world of Siege Rhinos and Tasigur, the Golden Fangs. Compare this to Nissa, Worldwaker who repeatably turns your lands into 4/4s with Trample. Or Sarkhan Unbroken who repeatably poops out 4/4s with Flying.
I don't even want to mention the ulitmate since she will flip so late already and since her starting loyalty is 3 and it's a -7 it's basically a non-entity.
I actually wonder if she isn't a bit of a design failure. Her abilities are definitely more in line with her actual mana cost but the requirement to get to utilize them makes it so that you actually have to compare her to the big cards that you could cast instead at that point.
I really don't understand your point. WotC made a lategame card, that has a purpuse in the early game. You play her, get a forest and maybe eats a removal in which case you are a (forest) card up in the exchange. But in contrast to a borderland ranger, this card is also fine if you draw her on turn 10. I think it is quite ok for a 3cc card (and reminds me a bit of Fleecemace lion). Oviously her planeswalkerside can't be as good as a 6cc planeswalker like Elsbeth, but still her uptickability is great.
That depend on how you look at the card. You speak about her like she is a throw-away copy of Borderland Ranger that may have an upside later. I don't look at her this way.
Planeswalkers are supposed be a big deal. They are the main focus of the story, they are always Mythic Rare and many of them are quite powerful and can win games on their own potentially.
I don't think it was Wizards intention to look at Nissa, Jace and Chandra as Mythic Rare Borderland Rangers, Merfolk Looters and Goblin Fireslingers with upside respectively and yet that is what they basically are.
If you don't the see problem with that then I guess these cards could appear fine to you but I do have a big problem with those designs. Flipping them should be a big deal and the actual goal but the conditions of them are so hard to meet and the payoff is not even that high they are a basically cannon-fodder that you just play and hope that your opponent let's you untap with them and if they eat an Ultimate Price then whatever
Comments about Jace being better with a "may" ability so he doesn't have to flip just show the problem with those designs.
Many of you are looking at this all wrong. Now, I understand most of you might have a standard mindset. I don't. Having just started this game 6 weeks ago, I decided against playing standard, as I would have to purchase a bunch of cards that are soon to be rotating out. I might begin when BFZ comes out, IDK. So you standard players may have a point.
Now, I played Star Wars CCG (Decipher) back in the day, from 1996 - 2001. There were a series of cards in that game called EPP. What EPP stands for would mean nothing to you, but the E stood for Enhanced. They were main characters with weapons installed, thus the enhanced. They came down, shot their weapon, or swung their lightsaber, and stuff died. The EPP's died too because the price of gaining their weapon was that they had no staying power. In SW, the mains that became EPP's (Han, Leia, Luke, Vader, Obiwan, etc) had some sort of text that gave them staying power. Hard to explain, as MTG has nothing equivalent. Losing that staying power meant a lot of players grumbled, using exactl some of Galerions arguments about mains shouldnt be played like that. Eventually, people caught on that they could drop these EPP's into a problem, clear it up, and then the EPP's went away immediately. EPP's were like the Navy Seals or Delta Force of SWCCG. Fast, powerful problem solvers that do not stick around for the enemy to gang up on.
They became some of the most popular and powerful cards in the game, because they were so flexible.
Keep in mind, I play Modern, Commander, THG, etc. Specifically, I play Mill. Mono blue control mill, Phenax/Kruphix wall mill, and U/B draw-go mill. Commander, it's Phenax Fort mill.
I'm viewing Jace as EPP Jace. He's flexible. He's fast, and he solves problems, then goes away. In my mono blue mill decks, I can have my Snapcasters to run control, and my EPP Jace to reuse my Glimpse, Breaking, or Mind Funeral when I don't have a mill in hand. Then, EPP Jace goes away, having absorbed some damage for me. U/B mill, Snap and Jace do the same thing - mill from graveyard when my hand has none.
Mill is about either speed, or control, and I run speed. I'll gladly pay 4 (or 5) to drop EPP Jace, draw a card, discard a card, and play a Glimpse or a Mind Funeral from graveyard on a turn I don't have one in hand. Without a mill, it's a dead turn anyway. EPP Jace will replace Jace, Memory Adept and Visions of Beyond.
I always regretted Snapcaster Mage was so expensive. Jace won't be, not for a while, anyway. I can definitely see him getting up there though, being Snaplite, and mythic.
That's just mill (the only decks I run ATM). The more experienced of you, with your vast knowledge of cards, will be able to envision far more uses.
If you do not like EPP Jace, or EPP Nissa or any of the others, hang onto them until the Modern and EDH community discovers them, and the price rises. As I said, EPP Jace is Snapcaster lite #5 - 8. Modern will snap (haha) them up with that in mind. I don't see it being Legacy speed, but you never know what those devils will come up with.
So Jace, garbage? Hardly.
Edit: These 3cmc walkers may the the first sign of WOTC unofficially supporting the Tiny Leaders format. Just a thought. WOTC, in these Standard sets, also has to satisfy Modern and Commander/EDH players. First, they need to keep those formats healthy, and once a year or biannual Modern releases, and whatever-annual Commander releases will not do that. Plus, throwing them a few bones can only increase sales, and ultimately, that is what WOTC is all about.
-argh didn't realised the thread had moved so much-
how is jace not good? Once you flip him, you can immediately flashback your best spell in the graveyard. Good thing his tap ability (on the creature side) can't be activated on the turn he moves into play, or it would be Snapcaster Mage:Planeswalker Version. (ok, no flash makes him weaker, but still)
Ulti is crap, but then again, who ever uses Karn's ulti?
Chandra and Jace are both meh. They are okay, nothing great.
Liliana is the best so far. We will definitely see decks playing her in Standard, maybe even Modern.
Nissa fits very well in any Standard control deck. +1 draw(~) a card? Yes, please. But I don't see her being played in Modern.
I'm glad that there are so many people who believe that Jace, Chandra, and Nissa are actually good. That'll mean that their prices will be relatively high during release, and I can quickly unload them after opening them during prerelease/release before they tank after people realize how bad these cards really are.
I'm glad that there are so many people who believe that Jace, Chandra, and Nissa are actually good. That'll mean that their prices will be relatively high during release, and I can quickly unload them after opening them during prerelease/release before they tank after people realize how bad these cards really are.
Well Narset Transcendent sold for something like $50 and was heralded as JTMS 2.0 by some people and look at her now.
Hype can blind people in big ways and make people a lot of money in the process. That's how it works I guess.
Jace seems like an okay looter ruined by turning into a Walker. Unless your cast at sorcery leads to some big play... he's a nice way to annoy opponent's big creatures?
Chandra there are some cheap and easy tricks to make her transform fast, and after that she's a fairly effective clock. Not the best, but a clock that start T4 is okay. She wants more Fall of the Hammer functional reprints, as that makes her transform *very* easy to get off. Even to the point you can spotdodge removal off of it. Also, chump blocking her will still get her closer to transforming.
Nissa, well, she isn't going to be the star of her own deck. She does utility work. And Mono-G having a repeatable 100% sure draw is a deal. Especially if it triggers off doing the one thing Green likes doing, playing lands. And especially if Landfall is in BFZ where she can help support a Green Landfall deck and in turn be supported by things that support landfalling.
The hype of Narset Transcendent was obvious. I'm not saying this chibi Jace will be a format defining card for modern, yet it is good enough to see play as one or max two copies in Delver or Control type decks. Just wait until the waters calm at price matter. The two CMC is enough to make new Jace a modern staple in the long term.
Liliana is also promising for Modern. But, it will be hard to surpass her veil version at that cmc range.
A 0/2 that does nothing but die to bolt on the turn it enters won't be doing anything in Modern. The +1 sucks, the -3 is WAY worse than just playing a Snapcaster Mage (seriously, how often does someone flash in Snapcaster to play a spell at Sorcery speed?), and the ultimate is just sad.
In Standard, do you know how often these planeswalkers are going to die in response to its controller activating their tap abilities?
Jace would be decent if he started at 6 loyalty then you could potentially get 2 flashbacks. Or if his flashback allowed you to play a card until the opponents end step. The +1 is relatively useless because how often is there a single threat on the other side to deal with. The ult seems geared towards rtr / ths block standard where control is the ultra grind and games were won by decking. But in anything other than edh its just bad.
And at a 0/2 he's get played and then die to shock the next turn. And you'll feel real bad
why wouldn't Jace's ability say "target instant or sorcery card in your graveyard gains flashback until end of turn", much in the way narset grants rebound?
pretty underwhelmed by all of these :/
Difference is, if the spell gets Remanded or has buyback or anything that would make it go into any other zone than the graveyard, it won't get exiled. If it had flashback, it would.
While this is true, I'm pretty sure that the reason he doesn't say "gains flashback" is actually because they didn't want to have flashback in Origins, but wanted to have a single card in Jace that has the ability to effectively give a card flashback.
Many of you are looking at this all wrong...[snip] Having just started this game 6 weeks ago...
your entire post can be summed up with this contradiction.
you might feel like you're getting a hang of the game and want to spout some wisdom, but trust me, you've got a long way to go.
(saying that, i think jace is ok. not "good", very slow, awful in terms of pressure compared to, say, snapcaster. but might see some fringe action in a durdly deck which doesn't exist yet. a big feather in his cap is coming down early enough to maybe avoid a targeted removal spell. opponent might ignore him and remove your higher priority targets. for low-cost incremental advantage and potential lategame threat i'd just play either snapcaster mage or Thassa, god of the sea, which seem to overlap quite well in function but are harder to remove or more impactful in the mid game)
Nissa seems too hard to consistently flip and Jace, while easy to flip, doesn't do all that much when flipped.
nissa is close to playable without flipping(the 3 mana 2/2 search a basic land has seen play in all 3 printings, in multiple decks, including a mono green one) and seeing as she adds a land drop, saying that getting to 7 eventually is not that difficult is quite an understatement, i think she is pretty close to good enough...
you misread the card.
in fairness, I initially did as well.
she only fetches a land to your hand, making her pretty awful as far as I can see for quick interactive formats where a 2/2 for 3 isn't what you want to be doing.
Private Mod Note
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Well, please explain how wrong we are then. Because I've yet to see you giving any reason to prove it wrong.
- Milling in general is set up really bad for Standard right now, because of Delve (Tasigur/DTT) and Deathmist Raptors among other cards.
As I said, I can't really say much for Standard as I do not play it. Recall my comment at the very end of my post, these 3cmc walkers may be intended more for Modern, EDH, and especially Tiny Leaders format. Putting them at mythic (if indeed they are) might have been a mistaken entry level. These are weaker than regular walkers.
Then again, I see them as perfectly powered for Tiny Leaders..... if it weren't for the rarity.
- Milling in general is set up really bad for Modern right now, because of Tarmogoyf, Delve and general speed for the opponent.
A mill deck that does not have at least one way to exile the graveyard is not much of a mill deck. Leyline of the Void and Bojuka Bog being just 2.
And you can get out of here with the Goyf. Same thing for exiling goes for creature removal. Goyf's worth $20 for what he can do. Which is be a weaker Consuming Aberration for 2 drop. Consuming Aberration on turn 5 in my U/B mill deck is at least a 20/20, and usually more like a 30/30 or more. Pfft! Scary Goyf! And lets not even mention other U/B ways to deal with him, such as, Murder, Doom Blade, Go For the Throat, Mana Leak, Surgical Extraction, Cancel, and all the other control cards. Goyf is blockable, exilable, destroyable, and cancelable. I can even steal him to use as my own. I'm more worried about planeswalkers or El Drazi graveyard recyclers than Goyf, tbh.
Chances are, after I mill my opponent for 10 cards, my 1 drop Jace's Phantasm as 5/5 will still have as much or more power than Goyf.
Creatures I can get rid of. Graveyard recyclers, I have to pray one of my 3 exilers comes up, and soon.
Try again?
- Milling in Legacy is asking for getting your arse kicked in.
You either give me too much credit, or your reading comprehension sucks. Let me repeat: I've been playing MTG for 6 weeks. To clarify, I do not play Legacy. My pockets aren't *that* deep. If they were, I'd have started my business, and all my hobby time would be spent there. That said, Legacy Mill would probably get its rear end handed to it, although the challenge of it would be fun. I've found the best form of Control in Mill is not Unsummon, Remand, Dissolve, or even Force of Will. It's called 'Mill 10. Now Mill till you mill 4 lands.' 'Hmmm, lets Surgical Extraction this card.' Followed by 'Bojuka Bog.' Can't play what you can't draw, right?
When you only play mill, this Jace is not even part of a good plan if you ask me. The loot-effect is decent but once he flips there is nothing that contributes heavily to what you are trying to do. Additionally milling decks who tap out for creatures who do noting on their turn are allow their opponent to interact with the board in their most favourable way. This Jace isn't a Hedron Crab. Meaning on the first turn it has no impact.
If you cannot see the value in the ability to play a Glimpse The Unthinkable, Mind Funeral or Breaking // Entering from the graveyard when you otherwise would not be able to mill, then I cannot help you.
If you cannot see the value of 4 cards adding 12 cards to your deck, I don't know what to say. To me, at least, it's patently obvious. Let's just leave it at that.
What do you find so flexible about him and what does he awnser in your mind?
- Standard, Modern and Legacy are not ran by costly 2/X creatures, instead they field massive ammounts of 4+/X creatures.
Funny, that. He's flexible because he allows me to stretch out and eliminate dead turns. Those turns where I have no mill cards, my Jace's Phantasm (5/5) and Fog Bank are already out. Those turns where I draw a card, sigh, because it's a dead draw Jace, Memory Adept on turn 4, and look at my opponent, and say, Pass Turn. Now I can drop EPP Jace, knowing that if I do not draw into a mill on turn 5, I can tap EPP Jace, draw a 2nd card, discard a card, flip him, and play the Glimpse I used on turn 2. Is there value in that? I hope so. It's certainly more valuable than Anime Jace, for the card draw and CMC.
We've already discussed creature removal. I've never had an issue with being overwhelmed by creatures, except aggro tokens. Mill is susceptible to that regardless. Snap can get the creature removal, and in a pinch, EPP Jace could too.
This Jace, again, is nothing like Snapcaster Mage. For sure it's -3 ability looks something like Snapcaster but the same pressure can't even be replicated. In fact I'd say it's a worse Den Protector in all it's forms as every Instant/Sorcery in your graveyard flashbacked by Jace can only be flash backed at sorcery speed.
I've generally found that few things cause an opponent pressure like a Twincasted Glimpse or Funeral.
It certainly makes them feel like they are on a clock, and the devastation of seeing key cards to their deck graveyarded gives me a mental edge. In fact, several players will not look at their lost cards specifically for that reason. I like messing with people's minds, it's one of the less admirable aspects of my personality, and is why I play only Mill at this time. Although a Deathtouch Commander deck is in the works, for the same kind of mind(expletive).
I won't say this Jace is garbage but it's very far from being excellent. In special in the current formats and the way these formats interract with graveyards meaning his Ultimate is not good, his -2/-0 isn't good enough and a flashback can only be done once. Nissa, Chandra and Liliana all have ways to win with their Planeswalker side. This Jace will never be able to win you the game. As you need great spells in the graveyard to actually do something. The card advantage he grands you is okay enough but his 0/2 body also doesn't do any decent blocking job.
- I would have liked this Jace if he was 0/4 or even 0/3. At 0/2 and with these abilities it's impact isn't good enough to be included into the 75.
He won't win the game on his own, but he certainly helps decks by giving them more flexibility with their graveyards. Whether it be Control, Mill, or some other way, he adds flexibility, more than Jace, Memory Adept.
Now I could be perfectly wrong. I've only played for 6 weeks. There's so many deck types I've never heard of, let alone played. I've got some playtesting to do, don't I? But my mill decks are winning the majority of their matches. Now I couldn't tell you the names or quality of the decks they are playing, except it smashes burn, and several green mana ramps using Sylvan Caryatids. As I learn more, and learn what cards to control or destroy in each particular deck type, I expect to be more competitive. I've got a lot to learn still. But I'm having a lot fun messing with people's minds, and thats what matters most, right? Having Fun!
Nissa seems too hard to consistently flip and Jace, while easy to flip, doesn't do all that much when flipped.
nissa is close to playable without flipping(the 3 mana 2/2 search a basic land has seen play in all 3 printings, in multiple decks, including a mono green one) and seeing as she adds a land drop, saying that getting to 7 eventually is not that difficult is quite an understatement, i think she is pretty close to good enough...
you misread the card.
in fairness, I initially did as well.
she only fetches a land to your hand, making her pretty awful as far as I can see for quick interactive formats where a 2/2 for 3 isn't what you want to be doing.
I believe they simply mispoke, as they are talking about Farhaven Elf, Borderland Ranger, and Civic Wayfinder. Who all made sure you hit your 4-drop on curve. Which is still fine. Provided CMC4 is strong and CMC3 isn't flooded with options.
If she ramped instead of curvefixed she'd automatically transform on T6 landcounts (which could be as early as T4 with the right support spells). Which is a bit much, even if Ultimate isn't very ultimatey.
For what it's worth though... T3: play Jace, T4: play Avaricious Dragon, discard hand and flip Jace. COMBO!
First her ability requires you to get and have a ton of lands in play. Logically speaking if my deck can get so many lands out fast then why Im not casing actual big stuff like Garruk, Caller of Beasts, Garruk, Apex Predator, Primeval Titan, Karn Liberated, Dragonlord Atarka etc. all which are far more powerful then her?
Ingnoring this for a bit let's take a look at her PW side.
Her starting loyalty is only 3. Considering at which point in the game she comes down your opponent is very likely to have stuff on the field already then can just kill her immediately.
Her +1 is Coiling Oracle. OK that's pretty decent I have to admit but that late in the game I kinda expect that to be the case.
Her -2 is just so bad. This may have story reasons but it's seriously holding the card back. A single legendary 4/4 token with no other abilities doesn't quite cut in a world of Siege Rhinos and Tasigur, the Golden Fangs. Compare this to Nissa, Worldwaker who repeatably turns your lands into 4/4s with Trample. Or Sarkhan Unbroken who repeatably poops out 4/4s with Flying.
I don't even want to mention the ulitmate since she will flip so late already and since her starting loyalty is 3 and it's a -7 it's basically a non-entity.
I actually wonder if she isn't a bit of a design failure. Her abilities are definitely more in line with her actual mana cost but the requirement to get to utilize them makes it so that you actually have to compare her to the big cards that you could cast instead at that point.
She's the only flipwalker that has an ETB ability, and the only one that can reliably be flipped the turn that she comes into play. I'd agree with the statement that she's generally a poor choice for other archetypes, but being able to cast her on turn 7 with Dissolve mana up in UGx control (I'd like to experiment with a ramp/control brew) ensures that you'll get at least two cards, a card and an extra land drop, or a card and a 4/4 out of her - all strong effects for 3 mana. Access to a strong wincon/CA engine at this CMC is great for draw-go decks.
Well honestly, you can't play those actually powerful cards without the land in the first place, whereas Nissa can be played as early as turn 2 if you've got a Mystic, and then guarantees that you'll hit land #3 as well. Obviously on turn 7 or 8 or whatever, you'd rather have an Atarka, but you can't drop Atarka early.
I think Nissa is potentially good in Sultai Control. Her +1 is Courser of Kruphix on steroids. Her -2 isn't very good, that's for sure, but her +1 more than makes up for it and her ultimate is very relevant if you ever get there. If they print something that lets you dump land on the field then she'll be good, I believe, but if not then I guess only time will tell.
These were my initial thoughts. Nissa is great... if you can flip her. Jace is pretty good... when not flipped.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
In any case, I think she will be good in the right EDH deck and she will definitely be in my Hua Tuo's deck.
Jace will need to be built around probably. Played with delve spells, haste enablers, extra turns... I don't see him being really played in any format to be honest, and that's fine considering his historic.
I also totally fail to see how Chandra is good with storm? She doesn't work with Storm itself, but yes, Storm will cast enough rituals to make her flip the turn after she entered the battlefield. So she will do 5 damages the turn Storm goes off. Not sure it's worth 3 mana. Browbeat is 3 mana for 5 damages or even worse (3 cards) and isn't played in Legacy Storm. I'm not an experienced storm player, but in my experience, storm wants free spells, not a creature that doesn't do anything the turn it enters the battlefield.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
That depend on how you look at the card. You speak about her like she is a throw-away copy of Borderland Ranger that may have an upside later. I don't look at her this way.
Planeswalkers are supposed be a big deal. They are the main focus of the story, they are always Mythic Rare and many of them are quite powerful and can win games on their own potentially.
I don't think it was Wizards intention to look at Nissa, Jace and Chandra as Mythic Rare Borderland Rangers, Merfolk Looters and Goblin Fireslingers with upside respectively and yet that is what they basically are.
If you don't the see problem with that then I guess these cards could appear fine to you but I do have a big problem with those designs. Flipping them should be a big deal and the actual goal but the conditions of them are so hard to meet and the payoff is not even that high they are a basically cannon-fodder that you just play and hope that your opponent let's you untap with them and if they eat an Ultimate Price then whatever
Comments about Jace being better with a "may" ability so he doesn't have to flip just show the problem with those designs.
Many of you are looking at this all wrong. Now, I understand most of you might have a standard mindset. I don't. Having just started this game 6 weeks ago, I decided against playing standard, as I would have to purchase a bunch of cards that are soon to be rotating out. I might begin when BFZ comes out, IDK. So you standard players may have a point.
Now, I played Star Wars CCG (Decipher) back in the day, from 1996 - 2001. There were a series of cards in that game called EPP. What EPP stands for would mean nothing to you, but the E stood for Enhanced. They were main characters with weapons installed, thus the enhanced. They came down, shot their weapon, or swung their lightsaber, and stuff died. The EPP's died too because the price of gaining their weapon was that they had no staying power. In SW, the mains that became EPP's (Han, Leia, Luke, Vader, Obiwan, etc) had some sort of text that gave them staying power. Hard to explain, as MTG has nothing equivalent. Losing that staying power meant a lot of players grumbled, using exactl some of Galerions arguments about mains shouldnt be played like that. Eventually, people caught on that they could drop these EPP's into a problem, clear it up, and then the EPP's went away immediately. EPP's were like the Navy Seals or Delta Force of SWCCG. Fast, powerful problem solvers that do not stick around for the enemy to gang up on.
They became some of the most popular and powerful cards in the game, because they were so flexible.
Keep in mind, I play Modern, Commander, THG, etc. Specifically, I play Mill. Mono blue control mill, Phenax/Kruphix wall mill, and U/B draw-go mill. Commander, it's Phenax Fort mill.
I'm viewing Jace as EPP Jace. He's flexible. He's fast, and he solves problems, then goes away. In my mono blue mill decks, I can have my Snapcasters to run control, and my EPP Jace to reuse my Glimpse, Breaking, or Mind Funeral when I don't have a mill in hand. Then, EPP Jace goes away, having absorbed some damage for me. U/B mill, Snap and Jace do the same thing - mill from graveyard when my hand has none.
Mill is about either speed, or control, and I run speed. I'll gladly pay 4 (or 5) to drop EPP Jace, draw a card, discard a card, and play a Glimpse or a Mind Funeral from graveyard on a turn I don't have one in hand. Without a mill, it's a dead turn anyway. EPP Jace will replace Jace, Memory Adept and Visions of Beyond.
I always regretted Snapcaster Mage was so expensive. Jace won't be, not for a while, anyway. I can definitely see him getting up there though, being Snaplite, and mythic.
That's just mill (the only decks I run ATM). The more experienced of you, with your vast knowledge of cards, will be able to envision far more uses.
If you do not like EPP Jace, or EPP Nissa or any of the others, hang onto them until the Modern and EDH community discovers them, and the price rises. As I said, EPP Jace is Snapcaster lite #5 - 8. Modern will snap (haha) them up with that in mind. I don't see it being Legacy speed, but you never know what those devils will come up with.
So Jace, garbage? Hardly.
Edit: These 3cmc walkers may the the first sign of WOTC unofficially supporting the Tiny Leaders format. Just a thought. WOTC, in these Standard sets, also has to satisfy Modern and Commander/EDH players. First, they need to keep those formats healthy, and once a year or biannual Modern releases, and whatever-annual Commander releases will not do that. Plus, throwing them a few bones can only increase sales, and ultimately, that is what WOTC is all about.
how is jace not good? Once you flip him, you can immediately flashback your best spell in the graveyard. Good thing his tap ability (on the creature side) can't be activated on the turn he moves into play, or it would be Snapcaster Mage:Planeswalker Version. (ok, no flash makes him weaker, but still)
Ulti is crap, but then again, who ever uses Karn's ulti?
Retired: WUEphara, God of the PolisWU blink | WGerrard CapashenW lifegain | WUB Ertai, the CorruptedWUB combo | WAvacyn, Angel of HopeW
mono-white controlangel tribalPauper: UBDimirKittyUB | RBG Deathcycle RBG
Modern: GWUEnchantressGWU | GWUTurbofogGWU
Liliana is the best so far. We will definitely see decks playing her in Standard, maybe even Modern.
Nissa fits very well in any Standard control deck. +1 draw(~) a card? Yes, please. But I don't see her being played in Modern.
Looking forward to Gideon.
Well Narset Transcendent sold for something like $50 and was heralded as JTMS 2.0 by some people and look at her now.
Hype can blind people in big ways and make people a lot of money in the process. That's how it works I guess.
Chandra there are some cheap and easy tricks to make her transform fast, and after that she's a fairly effective clock. Not the best, but a clock that start T4 is okay. She wants more Fall of the Hammer functional reprints, as that makes her transform *very* easy to get off. Even to the point you can spotdodge removal off of it. Also, chump blocking her will still get her closer to transforming.
Nissa, well, she isn't going to be the star of her own deck. She does utility work. And Mono-G having a repeatable 100% sure draw is a deal. Especially if it triggers off doing the one thing Green likes doing, playing lands. And especially if Landfall is in BFZ where she can help support a Green Landfall deck and in turn be supported by things that support landfalling.
Liliana is also promising for Modern. But, it will be hard to surpass her veil version at that cmc range.
In Standard, do you know how often these planeswalkers are going to die in response to its controller activating their tap abilities?
And at a 0/2 he's get played and then die to shock the next turn. And you'll feel real bad
While this is true, I'm pretty sure that the reason he doesn't say "gains flashback" is actually because they didn't want to have flashback in Origins, but wanted to have a single card in Jace that has the ability to effectively give a card flashback.
your entire post can be summed up with this contradiction.
you might feel like you're getting a hang of the game and want to spout some wisdom, but trust me, you've got a long way to go.
(saying that, i think jace is ok. not "good", very slow, awful in terms of pressure compared to, say, snapcaster. but might see some fringe action in a durdly deck which doesn't exist yet. a big feather in his cap is coming down early enough to maybe avoid a targeted removal spell. opponent might ignore him and remove your higher priority targets. for low-cost incremental advantage and potential lategame threat i'd just play either snapcaster mage or Thassa, god of the sea, which seem to overlap quite well in function but are harder to remove or more impactful in the mid game)
you misread the card.
in fairness, I initially did as well.
she only fetches a land to your hand, making her pretty awful as far as I can see for quick interactive formats where a 2/2 for 3 isn't what you want to be doing.
As I said, I can't really say much for Standard as I do not play it. Recall my comment at the very end of my post, these 3cmc walkers may be intended more for Modern, EDH, and especially Tiny Leaders format. Putting them at mythic (if indeed they are) might have been a mistaken entry level. These are weaker than regular walkers.
Then again, I see them as perfectly powered for Tiny Leaders..... if it weren't for the rarity.
A mill deck that does not have at least one way to exile the graveyard is not much of a mill deck. Leyline of the Void and Bojuka Bog being just 2.
And you can get out of here with the Goyf. Same thing for exiling goes for creature removal. Goyf's worth $20 for what he can do. Which is be a weaker Consuming Aberration for 2 drop. Consuming Aberration on turn 5 in my U/B mill deck is at least a 20/20, and usually more like a 30/30 or more. Pfft! Scary Goyf! And lets not even mention other U/B ways to deal with him, such as, Murder, Doom Blade, Go For the Throat, Mana Leak, Surgical Extraction, Cancel, and all the other control cards. Goyf is blockable, exilable, destroyable, and cancelable. I can even steal him to use as my own. I'm more worried about planeswalkers or El Drazi graveyard recyclers than Goyf, tbh.
Chances are, after I mill my opponent for 10 cards, my 1 drop Jace's Phantasm as 5/5 will still have as much or more power than Goyf.
Creatures I can get rid of. Graveyard recyclers, I have to pray one of my 3 exilers comes up, and soon.
Try again?
You either give me too much credit, or your reading comprehension sucks. Let me repeat: I've been playing MTG for 6 weeks. To clarify, I do not play Legacy. My pockets aren't *that* deep. If they were, I'd have started my business, and all my hobby time would be spent there. That said, Legacy Mill would probably get its rear end handed to it, although the challenge of it would be fun. I've found the best form of Control in Mill is not Unsummon, Remand, Dissolve, or even Force of Will. It's called 'Mill 10. Now Mill till you mill 4 lands.' 'Hmmm, lets Surgical Extraction this card.' Followed by 'Bojuka Bog.' Can't play what you can't draw, right?
If you cannot see the value in the ability to play a Glimpse The Unthinkable, Mind Funeral or Breaking // Entering from the graveyard when you otherwise would not be able to mill, then I cannot help you.
If you cannot see the value of 4 cards adding 12 cards to your deck, I don't know what to say. To me, at least, it's patently obvious. Let's just leave it at that.
Funny, that. He's flexible because he allows me to stretch out and eliminate dead turns. Those turns where I have no mill cards, my Jace's Phantasm (5/5) and Fog Bank are already out. Those turns where I draw a card, sigh, because it's a dead draw Jace, Memory Adept on turn 4, and look at my opponent, and say, Pass Turn. Now I can drop EPP Jace, knowing that if I do not draw into a mill on turn 5, I can tap EPP Jace, draw a 2nd card, discard a card, flip him, and play the Glimpse I used on turn 2. Is there value in that? I hope so. It's certainly more valuable than Anime Jace, for the card draw and CMC.
We've already discussed creature removal. I've never had an issue with being overwhelmed by creatures, except aggro tokens. Mill is susceptible to that regardless. Snap can get the creature removal, and in a pinch, EPP Jace could too.
I've generally found that few things cause an opponent pressure like a Twincasted Glimpse or Funeral.
It certainly makes them feel like they are on a clock, and the devastation of seeing key cards to their deck graveyarded gives me a mental edge. In fact, several players will not look at their lost cards specifically for that reason. I like messing with people's minds, it's one of the less admirable aspects of my personality, and is why I play only Mill at this time. Although a Deathtouch Commander deck is in the works, for the same kind of mind(expletive).
He won't win the game on his own, but he certainly helps decks by giving them more flexibility with their graveyards. Whether it be Control, Mill, or some other way, he adds flexibility, more than Jace, Memory Adept.
Now I could be perfectly wrong. I've only played for 6 weeks. There's so many deck types I've never heard of, let alone played. I've got some playtesting to do, don't I? But my mill decks are winning the majority of their matches. Now I couldn't tell you the names or quality of the decks they are playing, except it smashes burn, and several green mana ramps using Sylvan Caryatids. As I learn more, and learn what cards to control or destroy in each particular deck type, I expect to be more competitive. I've got a lot to learn still. But I'm having a lot fun messing with people's minds, and thats what matters most, right? Having Fun!
If she ramped instead of curvefixed she'd automatically transform on T6 landcounts (which could be as early as T4 with the right support spells). Which is a bit much, even if Ultimate isn't very ultimatey.