Yes. It was really difficult to win a multiple days event like a Pro Tour with a deck sporting Soul Warden because you got a warning the first two time you forgot, and then a game loss each additional time, leading you to losing games and matches because you were not bad at Magic but at bookkeeping.
This change is here to avoid that.
The answer to that was printing future cards like Soul's Attendant adding one word per card that has a positive trigger ("May") seems a far more elegant fix than adding a bunch of rules that only work in some tournaments.
Parinoid stated that quirks like Transcendance are against the intention of the rule (which either way will surely be clarified by the 1st or we have a big problem coming) and will therefore have exceptions made for such singular cards. While this is yet another inelegant fix to this problem (and I would assume that the prefered method would be to issue errata for transcendance so that it doesnt work rather than having exceptions to the new rule(hint - errata should of been issued to all no longer mandatory triggers, making them "May" in the first place)), this still doesnt cover cases like Jin-Gitaxis, Core Auger.
I understand the intention of helping new players by assisting them in not forgetting their may effects (this is what the difference would be if these abilities were just errata'd to "May"), but surely there is a better way if that is a worthy aspiration. Personally I think the best method to help forgetful new players remember their triggers is tough love. How many times does someone have to forget their sun titan trigger before they start to remember it.
Out of interest come january the 1st will I have to draw 7 off my Jin Gitaxis on MODO or will it be a may effect?
I don't think Bob's draw is optional because "Losing Life" is not covered on the criteria list.
ALL of the ability has to fit on the list or it is still mando.
Q. My opponent is playing Owling mine/Turbo fog and has several howling mine/Font of mythos out. They miscount and tell me to draw less cards than I should. Do I have to say anything? A. Nope. You are not obligated to do anything if you notice your opponent miss a mandatory trigger.
Q. What if my opponent later notices his mistake and calls a judge? A. Then the judge will asses what has happened and if they find that your opponent missed the trigger accidentally, then they will likely be issued with a Missed Trigger infraction, and the trigger will be put on the bottom of the stack.
When it comes to drawing many cards this could be difficult, but for simple things like just one mine, or a Phyrexian Arena it would be easier to see.
Wait wait wait. So if your opponent miscounts the number of cards that you have to draw, and tells you to draw x instead of y, even though it is mandatory for you to draw y, you can now legally draw x? Am I understanding this correctly? What the heck?
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Okay I have read these rules three times and skimmed through most of the thread and I am still very lost and confused. I am the default rules guru in my playgroup because I have been playing the longest and pay the most attention to the 'world of magic' so I really need to get this stuff if i want to help them enter events. Can anyone give me an everymans explaination of what is going on, it'd be much appreciated.
The IPG doesn't apply to Magic Online. Lot of things are handled differently (intentional draws, Slow Play and Tardiness, and so on) between the two games.
These issues you mentioned are to do with things not covered in the comp rules. These changes are effectively changing the way these cards work.
Even so assuming MODO handles this differently to how IRL, it still doesnt answer will drawing 7 off Jin on modo be optional come january the 1st?
If not how exactly are you supposed to test in a tournament setting if due to what ever context that Jin example becomes particularly relevant.
Loops for example are not handled in the same way on MTGO and on paper magic, making some decks impossible to play on Magic Online. This is not new.
As for your question, we have no idea, because right now we only have the IPG, and the IPG doesn't apply to Magic Online, so it doesn't say a word about it. If this will apply to MTGO, we'll get another notice, more likely on the MTGO official blog.
Again the reason for MODO not having loops built in causing decks to not be viable is because of the same time contraints process you mentioned before and not because you cant actually complete the loop.
As for your answer that seems poor that they would not clarify such things, infact this all seems like yet another hastily enacted change.
Having this for competitive but not casual RELs makes the game significantly more complicated and confusing . It should either apply to all RELs or none: the game's actual mechanical rules/interactions should not be different depending on what sanctioned tournament you play in... only the consequences and penalties for breaking or ignoring those rules should be shifting according to REL.
So if I have Liliana Vess and my opponent has one card in hand that I don't want them to have in their graveyard (say Bridge from Below), and I have a grip full of cards I don't want to discard, can I target them to +1 her, but not have them discard that card?
If your opponent miscount the number of triggers and tell you to draw less, you're under no obligation to remind him the triggers he missed. I think the example got you confused.
How many cards can I draw? Only the right number, or only the number he told me, or both?
This was mainly for curses/transformers, right? Because there's no way for you to know your opponent forgot his beginning of upkeep-triggering curse/transform, until he reaches out and draws a card? That's the way it seems, at least, coming off the limited PTQ season, where this is probably the highest reason for judge calls, from what I've seen.
I am under the impression that this means that mandatory triggers can not be retroactively applied if the game continues. Like if we both miss it, then it is gone. But If someone plays a creature with a Soul Warden in play and the person controlling the Soul Warden forgets, then the other player can still remind you and the trigger still happens as long as the game state has not progressed...
Liliana Vess's abilities are not triggered abilities (noticeable by starting by "At", "When" or "Whenever") and are absolutly not affected by those new rules.
Oops, I thought it was for all abilities, not just triggered, my mistake.
Regarding infinite scry 2:
"2) I want to set up my deck so that it is in an exact order.
Technically, this is possible - you just bubble sort your deck until it matches the order you want. However, you cannot say how many iterations it will take, and thus you aren't allowed to do it. Trying to do so now gets you a slow play warning and it's time to go do something else instead."
I don't know if this was mentioned before, but isn't this incorrect? You certainly CAN put a finite upper bound on sorting your deck into a given order, call it N. Now, if your deck gets properly sorted in less than N iterations, you specify that your algorithm will leave both cards on top until all N iterations are completed. Thus you can specify an exact number of iterations and an exact stopping condition. So why wouldn't you be allowed to do this? If you were required to ship the cards to the bottom every time, this might be a different story.
I greatly dislike these policies... I'd be extremely wary of anything that allows the game to legitimately function differently at different tournament levels. I'd also be extremely wary of anything that causes identically worded instructions on spells, triggered abilities, and activated abilities to function differently. Both of those just seems plain wrong to me, and this policy implements both of them simultaneously!
This sounds like a horrible change. If it's written as "may", I agree you should not be forced to remind your opponent. If it's not written as "may", then it should be mandatory. I do not understand this change at all. It feels like selective cheating...
A list of beneficial effects has been created, if one of your own trigger is on its list, it's an optional trigger: you can refuse to apply it and if you forget it there is no penalty but also no rollback and it's to bad for you.
This is the real problem with this change. They could individually list every effect on every card(which they haven't) as being beneficial or not and there will be situations where a generally beneficial effect will be detrimental.
What this rule want to do and what it actually does as written are two different things. They want sloppy players to be able to miss triggers as long as their opponent allows it.
Instead they've changed tons of cards to may.
All the massively different functionality will be worked around somehow, but cards should function 100% the same at every REL. Are people going to watch the PT wondering why some guy just missed a trigger that is mandatory at FNM?
This gets complicated real fast. They are saying they are changing these effects to "may", yet what is really going to happen is people are going to try to miss triggers that are bad for them because they are on this list. Their opponent is going to call a judge and the trigger will be mandatory.
Oh, and it says missed triggers should go on the bottom of the stack, so can you leave it on 0 counters then remember them all at once when your opponent plays something?
No. It's now an optional trigger. If you don't put a counter on (either by accident or on purpose), there's no going back.
Personally, I think the easiest fix for the myriad problems created by this rule is to change it so that triggers that fall into these categories are not optional, but if you miss them there is no penalty and you don't have to remind your opponent about them.
On the other hand, if you do remind your opponent, then he or she should have to do it.
That's a pretty easy fix, and it does create its own problems (do I have to remind you every single time you lose life that you need to use Transcendence?) but it seems a lot better than this version. At least that way the rules are still the same no matter where you're playing the game.
It's not different than the rules about Free and Derived informations: in Regular, you have to assist your opponent, and it's the same here, as you have to point out his triggers in thing like that.
In Competitive, your opponent is now playing by himself, and that means you can get an hedge by not pointing out stuff he forget, and again, it's the same here.
Except it is diferent because you can't choose to ignore your jin gitaxis trigger in Regular, its actually changing what your cards are capable of.
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The answer to that was printing future cards like Soul's Attendant adding one word per card that has a positive trigger ("May") seems a far more elegant fix than adding a bunch of rules that only work in some tournaments.
Parinoid stated that quirks like Transcendance are against the intention of the rule (which either way will surely be clarified by the 1st or we have a big problem coming) and will therefore have exceptions made for such singular cards. While this is yet another inelegant fix to this problem (and I would assume that the prefered method would be to issue errata for transcendance so that it doesnt work rather than having exceptions to the new rule(hint - errata should of been issued to all no longer mandatory triggers, making them "May" in the first place)), this still doesnt cover cases like Jin-Gitaxis, Core Auger.
I understand the intention of helping new players by assisting them in not forgetting their may effects (this is what the difference would be if these abilities were just errata'd to "May"), but surely there is a better way if that is a worthy aspiration. Personally I think the best method to help forgetful new players remember their triggers is tough love. How many times does someone have to forget their sun titan trigger before they start to remember it.
Out of interest come january the 1st will I have to draw 7 off my Jin Gitaxis on MODO or will it be a may effect?
ALL of the ability has to fit on the list or it is still mando.
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Wait wait wait. So if your opponent miscounts the number of cards that you have to draw, and tells you to draw x instead of y, even though it is mandatory for you to draw y, you can now legally draw x? Am I understanding this correctly? What the heck?
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I see no reason for it to be optional. It doesn't do any of the stuff listed in the bullets (100% of the time anyway).
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I don't even know right now.
These issues you mentioned are to do with things not covered in the comp rules. These changes are effectively changing the way these cards work.
Even so assuming MODO handles this differently to how IRL, it still doesnt answer will drawing 7 off Jin on modo be optional come january the 1st?
If not how exactly are you supposed to test in a tournament setting if due to what ever context that Jin example becomes particularly relevant.
Again the reason for MODO not having loops built in causing decks to not be viable is because of the same time contraints process you mentioned before and not because you cant actually complete the loop.
As for your answer that seems poor that they would not clarify such things, infact this all seems like yet another hastily enacted change.
How many cards can I draw? Only the right number, or only the number he told me, or both?
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I am under the impression that this means that mandatory triggers can not be retroactively applied if the game continues. Like if we both miss it, then it is gone. But If someone plays a creature with a Soul Warden in play and the person controlling the Soul Warden forgets, then the other player can still remind you and the trigger still happens as long as the game state has not progressed...
So were the sixth edition rules, at the time.
There's both a lot of positive and a lot of negative in this change. I expect them to further revise things based on the feedback people are giving.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
Oops, I thought it was for all abilities, not just triggered, my mistake.
"2) I want to set up my deck so that it is in an exact order.
Technically, this is possible - you just bubble sort your deck until it matches the order you want. However, you cannot say how many iterations it will take, and thus you aren't allowed to do it. Trying to do so now gets you a slow play warning and it's time to go do something else instead."
I don't know if this was mentioned before, but isn't this incorrect? You certainly CAN put a finite upper bound on sorting your deck into a given order, call it N. Now, if your deck gets properly sorted in less than N iterations, you specify that your algorithm will leave both cards on top until all N iterations are completed. Thus you can specify an exact number of iterations and an exact stopping condition. So why wouldn't you be allowed to do this? If you were required to ship the cards to the bottom every time, this might be a different story.
I greatly dislike these policies... I'd be extremely wary of anything that allows the game to legitimately function differently at different tournament levels. I'd also be extremely wary of anything that causes identically worded instructions on spells, triggered abilities, and activated abilities to function differently. Both of those just seems plain wrong to me, and this policy implements both of them simultaneously!
This is the real problem with this change. They could individually list every effect on every card(which they haven't) as being beneficial or not and there will be situations where a generally beneficial effect will be detrimental.
What this rule want to do and what it actually does as written are two different things. They want sloppy players to be able to miss triggers as long as their opponent allows it.
Instead they've changed tons of cards to may.
All the massively different functionality will be worked around somehow, but cards should function 100% the same at every REL. Are people going to watch the PT wondering why some guy just missed a trigger that is mandatory at FNM?
This gets complicated real fast. They are saying they are changing these effects to "may", yet what is really going to happen is people are going to try to miss triggers that are bad for them because they are on this list. Their opponent is going to call a judge and the trigger will be mandatory.
The subjective may trigger rule...great.
Maybe there will be an oracle update to cards like these that say;
".....put an unbeneficial +1+1 counter on it".
=)
Noah Weil on scouting, an attorney from Seattle with 20 Pro Tour appearances.
No. It's now an optional trigger. If you don't put a counter on (either by accident or on purpose), there's no going back.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
On the other hand, if you do remind your opponent, then he or she should have to do it.
That's a pretty easy fix, and it does create its own problems (do I have to remind you every single time you lose life that you need to use Transcendence?) but it seems a lot better than this version. At least that way the rules are still the same no matter where you're playing the game.
Except it is diferent because you can't choose to ignore your jin gitaxis trigger in Regular, its actually changing what your cards are capable of.