makes me sad, as that is the way i've always played at my LGS. i've been at that LGS since i was a noob, and i would forget optional triggers. then when i would say oops i forgot my opponent would just be like sorry dude it's too late when he knew perfectly well that i was forgetting. is this saying that in the past he should have been punished in some way?
EDIT: oh, nvm. i just realized it was for mandatory triggers as well. i guess that is the main change, no?
Well, previously optional triggers could be accidentally missed. An opponent didn't have to point them out. Now optional triggers can be intentionally missed (by the looks of it).
Also mandatory triggers could be missed and both players would get a warning for Failure to Maintain Gamestate but now an opponent doesn't need to point out missed triggers at all under 3.1 and 3.7 of the IPG.
It's not an optional trigger under 1.4, but isn't this still covered by the change to 3.1 which removes the obligation to mention opponents missing triggers?
While it isn't your responsibility to point them out to your opponent, you are still responsible for alerting a judge when they miss a mandatory trigger. Since knowingly ignoring your opponent breaking a rule still falls under Cheating - Fraud and is a DQable offence.
Which is the main reason I don't like this change. Since players won't be 100% sure what to call their opponents on and what they're allowed to ignore.
Wait, so if certain enters-the-battlefield replacement effects are optional, can you in Legacy Dredge Dread Return a Golgari Grave-Troll and choose not to put any counters on it, thus killing it again? Sorry for all of the questions, I just want to understand this since it's sort of confusing.
Well, previously optional triggers could be accidentally missed. An opponent didn't have to point them out. Now optional triggers can be intentionally missed (by the looks of it).
there is a difference? either way, they are missed. it's optional. before you could intentionally miss it too, right? it was OPTIONAL....
While it isn't your responsibility to point them out to your opponent, you are still responsible for alerting a judge when they miss a mandatory trigger. Since knowingly ignoring your opponent breaking a rule still falls under Cheating - Fraud and is a DQable offence.
While it isn't your responsibility to point them out to your opponent, you are still responsible for alerting a judge when they miss a mandatory trigger. Since knowingly ignoring your opponent breaking a rule still falls under Cheating - Fraud and is a DQable offence.
Which is the main reason I don't like this change. Since players won't be 100% sure what to call their opponents on and what they're allowed to ignore.
The new IPG says
Quote from "IPG" »
Players other than the controller of a trigger are under no obligation to point out that a trigger has been missed, though they may do so if they wish.
Wait, so if certain enters-the-battlefield replacement effects are optional, can you in Legacy Dredge Dread Return a Golgari Grave-Troll and choose not to put any counters on it, thus killing it again? Sorry for all of the questions, I just want to understand this since it's sort of confusing.
Wait, so if certain enters-the-battlefield replacement effects are optional, can you in Legacy Dredge Dread Return a Golgari Grave-Troll and choose not to put any counters on it, thus killing it again? Sorry for all of the questions, I just want to understand this since it's sort of confusing.
You may choose not to point out mandatory triggers your opponent misses. But you may not choose to miss your own mandatory triggers.
Wait, so if certain enters-the-battlefield replacement effects are optional, can you in Legacy Dredge Dread Return a Golgari Grave-Troll and choose not to put any counters on it, thus killing it again? Sorry for all of the questions, I just want to understand this since it's sort of confusing.
That won't work. This change only affects Triggered abilities. Replacement effects are unaffected.
Adding the +1/+1 counters is not a triggered ability. If it was, you couldn't miss it intentionally because it would be mandatory and you can't miss your own mandatory triggers. Your opponent could not point it out though if it was a trigger and you did miss it.
That won't work. This change only affects Triggered abilities. Replacement effects are unaffected.
What you quoted was my response to someone responding to my own scenario. Which specifically called the setting as Comp+.
Yes
You are wrong on this.
1.4 states this.
Traditionally, some abilities include the word ‘may’ as part of their text, indicating that their effect is optional. At Competitive and Professional REL, some additional triggered abilities and enters-the-battlefield replacement effects are considered optional.
Grave Troll, has an ETB Replacement effect, that is specifically described under the rule.
Puts +x/+x counters, or counters linked to a beneficial effect, on a permanent you control.
In any case, I don't like these changes as they apply right now--because it makes some strategies only work at higher RELs. These changes should apply to all RELs. It would actually make people PAY ATTENTION TO THE GAME and not miss, say, their Shrine of Burning Rage triggers. More skill is always good for the game.
I think a better fix is to errata all the cards with abilities that would be affected by this change.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A mere ten days after the Mending, a young knight of Valeron and a young ranger of Eos made a discovery that would change Alara forever.
Adding the +1/+1 counters is not a triggered ability. If it was, you couldn't miss it intentionally because it would be mandatory and you can't miss your own mandatory triggers. Your opponent could not point it out though if it was a trigger and you did miss it.
1.4 covers "enters-the-battlefield replacement effects" as well as triggered abilities.
And it's optional under the new rules, as it does only things on the list in 1.4.
And your opponent is still allowed to point out missed triggers, though he or she is not obligated to.
I really hope the JAR gets a similar update. Because otherwise this is going to get weird. As Raikou said, decks that only work at higher-level tournaments...blech. I'm sure it's going to happen though.
I read that section as being applicable to the opponent.
(ie. Players other than the controller of a trigger are under no obligation to point out [to their opponent] that a trigger has been missed, though they may do so if they wish.)
After all it also says:
Additionally, it is Fraud if a player (or teammate) notices an offense in his or her match and does not immediately call attention to it.
I read that section as being applicable to the opponent.
(ie. Players other than the controller of a trigger are under no obligation to point out [to their opponent] that a trigger has been missed, though they may do so if they wish.)
If that had been the intent, it would have said that. It just says "no obligation." Or, as the change summary says, "Opponents are no longer responsible for triggers."
Do you really think they intend that if your opponent misses a trigger you may or may not tell them, but you still have to call a judge either way?
Not at Regular REL, 1.4 is not in play during Regular REL
Ive never seen Either played at Competitive or Professional REL.
1.4 is only in effect during those specific tournament settings.
Well, previously optional triggers could be accidentally missed. An opponent didn't have to point them out. Now optional triggers can be intentionally missed (by the looks of it).
Also mandatory triggers could be missed and both players would get a warning for Failure to Maintain Gamestate but now an opponent doesn't need to point out missed triggers at all under 3.1 and 3.7 of the IPG.
But it may get played now that it's so much more powerful.
Kinda like Flash didn't see play until they removed the power-level errata — then it saw lots of play.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
While it isn't your responsibility to point them out to your opponent, you are still responsible for alerting a judge when they miss a mandatory trigger. Since knowingly ignoring your opponent breaking a rule still falls under Cheating - Fraud and is a DQable offence.
Which is the main reason I don't like this change. Since players won't be 100% sure what to call their opponents on and what they're allowed to ignore.
This is obvious. The IPG hasn't applied to Regular REL for over a year now.
does this mean certain cards will effectively function differently at regular REL and not regular REL?
…( `\(o),,_/` ¯ : o : : : o `-, …. Beyond the hard times from now
have/want: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/80-quattros-trade-thread
there is a difference? either way, they are missed. it's optional. before you could intentionally miss it too, right? it was OPTIONAL....
I wrote this, as in one of your above replies, you applied it to a Regular REL question.
That is exactly what this change means.
The New IPG disagrees with this.
The new IPG says
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
UUUJin-Gitaxias, Core AugurUUU
Modern
WWWHatebearsWWW
Yup, that appears to work.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
Yeah, re-reading that has me scratching my head.
You may choose not to point out mandatory triggers your opponent misses. But you may not choose to miss your own mandatory triggers.
That won't work. This change only affects Triggered abilities. Replacement effects are unaffected.
What you quoted was my response to someone responding to my own scenario. Which specifically called the setting as Comp+.
Yes
Um, yes you can, thats the whole discussion surrounding 1.4
You can decline the counters on the troll, as they fall directly under 1.4
Adding the +1/+1 counters is not a triggered ability. If it was, you couldn't miss it intentionally because it would be mandatory and you can't miss your own mandatory triggers. Your opponent could not point it out though if it was a trigger and you did miss it.
See above. The counters are not a triggered ability
They don't, as Golgari-Grave Troll's ability is not triggered.
UUUJin-Gitaxias, Core AugurUUU
Modern
WWWHatebearsWWW
You are wrong on this.
1.4 states this.
Traditionally, some abilities include the word ‘may’ as part of their text, indicating that their effect is optional. At Competitive and Professional REL, some additional triggered abilities and enters-the-battlefield replacement effects are considered optional.
Grave Troll, has an ETB Replacement effect, that is specifically described under the rule.
Puts +x/+x counters, or counters linked to a beneficial effect, on a permanent you control.
I think a better fix is to errata all the cards with abilities that would be affected by this change.
Emille, Seven-Sting Dancer Shalin Nariya
Oh wow. Just realized that that's not the relevant part.
UUUJin-Gitaxias, Core AugurUUU
Modern
WWWHatebearsWWW
But the rule says
1.4 covers "enters-the-battlefield replacement effects" as well as triggered abilities.
And it's optional under the new rules, as it does only things on the list in 1.4.
And your opponent is still allowed to point out missed triggers, though he or she is not obligated to.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
I read that section as being applicable to the opponent.
(ie. Players other than the controller of a trigger are under no obligation to point out [to their opponent] that a trigger has been missed, though they may do so if they wish.)
After all it also says:
So I see.
My mistake; didn't realize that that particular wording represented a replacement effect.
UUUJin-Gitaxias, Core AugurUUU
Modern
WWWHatebearsWWW
If that had been the intent, it would have said that. It just says "no obligation." Or, as the change summary says, "Opponents are no longer responsible for triggers."
Do you really think they intend that if your opponent misses a trigger you may or may not tell them, but you still have to call a judge either way?
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)