I agree with the reasoning behind the changes but the loophole that allows someone to "miss" a trigger that would be bad instead of good is going to cause too many headaches. Hell, i wouldn't care if the opponent could point out the missed trigger and force it to resolve. The simple fact that you can "forget" to trigger Jin with >6 cards in the library and your opponent cannot force you to resolve that mandatory trigger is bunk.
Is emrakul's graveyard entering ability (or Progenitus') still mandatory under the new 1.4?
From Toby Eliot, the nice guy in charge of the IPG: no abuse of how a card work (Transcendence, Mind Unbound, and so on) by twisting the IPG. The HJ may deviate if a player try to rulelayer the IPG.
For those who have an hard time to get it, here are the new rules summed in three sentences:
Those changes only apply to competitive and profesisonal tournaments, not to regular and casual events: GPT, PTQ, NQ, Nationals, PT, 1k are the tournaments affected, not casual games, FNM, prereleases, local club or store events.
All your opponent's triggers are "may" triggers : he can forget it and you don't have to remind them to him or call a judge, you can do you it if you want but nothing force you to do so.
A list of beneficial effects has been created, if one of your own trigger is on its list, it's an optional trigger: you can refuse to apply it and if you forget it there is no penalty but also no rollback and it's to bad for you.
What I don't understand is why is the third bullet point there if we already have the second one. If you'd be allowed to ignore the beneficial triggers, but your opponent could force them to be applied if he wishes so, that would shut any exploits down, wouldn't it?
This is all too ridiculous. Please, e-mail WotC if you have any issues with this and let your voice be heard on the matter.
Having a set of rules that alters what the cards do in competitive play versus regular play is absurd. I'm not saying all the changes are bad but 1.4 definitely is too subjective.
-People who did not read or barely read the rule
-People who give scummy examples of things you can do in a Magic game that you could do before this rule was ever changed
-People who do not understand the rule
-Tragically common panic
For greater clarity the following is an extended summery of the changes:
Beginning from January 1st 2012, at competitive and professional REL events (PTQ, GPT, GP, PT, etc.), triggered abilities and enters-the-battlefield replacement effects that meet the following criteria are optional:
• Gains you life or causes an opponent to lose life.
• Puts cards from your library, graveyard, or exile zones into your hand or onto the battlefield. This includes drawing cards.
• Causes opponents to put objects from their hand or the battlefield into the library, graveyard or exile.
• Puts a permanent into play under your control or gives you control of a permanent.
• Puts +x/+x counters, or counters linked to a beneficial effect, on a permanent you control.
• Gives +x/+x or a beneficial ability to a target creature you control.
• Exiles, damages, destroys, taps, or gives -x/-x to an opponent's target permanent. If the ability could target your own permanents, it is not optional unless that ability could target an opponent.
• Gives you additional turns or phases.
• Counters a spell or conditionally counters a spell, but only when cast by an opponent.
If a triggered ability or enters-the-battlefield replacement effect would do anything that is not on that list it is still mandatory.
Additionally, a triggered ability is mandatory if it triggers at the same point in each players turn. This is regardless of whether or not it meets the above criteria.
The other change is that you no are no longer obligated to call a judge if you notice that your opponent has missed a mandatory trigger.
If your opponent notices they have missed a mandatory trigger, they must call a judge on themselves and have the judge fix it. Not doing so is still Cheating - Fraud. If a spectator notices a mandatory trigger has been missed, they are still permitted to halt the game and find the nearest judge to fix the problem.Word on high says this is false.
As far as I'm aware, if one of your teammates notices a missed trigger in your game, they must call a judge and have them fix it. Not doing so is still Cheating - Fraud.
Some examples:
Q. Cool, that means I can miss Phyrexian Arena if I'm low on life. A. NO. Phyrexian Arena does something that isn't on the list, it causes you to lose life. So it is still mandatory.
Q. What about Howling Mine, I can miss that if I want right? A. If it's your Mine then you must remember it.
But, if it is your opponent's mine you are allowed to ignore it until your opponent remembers and calls a judge.
Q. How about if I have a Charmbreaker Devils and a Mystic Enforcer on the battlefield, and only seven cards in my graveyard (one is an instant). Can I miss the Devils' trigger to maintain threshold? A. Yes, you can do that. Charmbreaker Devils' triggered ability only does things on the list (specifically point 2), so it is now purely optional.
Q. Does that mean I can remove my hand permanently with Bottled Cloister by ignoring it's second ability? A. Yes, if you wanted to you can do that. While an ability of Bottled Cloister triggers at the same time each turn, they are two separate abilities. So while the fist ability does something not on the list (exiles your hand) the second one does only things on the list (point #2).
Q. What happens if I later chose to acknowledge Bottled Cloister's second ability? A. The cards it exiled before are still 'cards you own exiled with Bottled Cloister', so you will get them back and draw a card.
Q. I only play at FNM. How does this affect me? A. It won't affect you at all. This change only affects higher level events like Pro Tour, Grand Prix, Nationals and their qualifiers.
A good rule of thumb is that: if you have to fill in a decklist and there is a big prize (and invite to a large event, a trip somewhere, etc.) then the even is likely Comp+ REL and covered by these new rules.
Q. My opponent is playing Owling mine/Turbo fog and has several howling mine/Font of mythos out. They miscount and tell me to draw less cards than I should. Do I have to say anything? A. Nope. You are not obligated to do anything if you notice your opponent miss a mandatory trigger.
Q. What if my opponent later notices his mistake and calls a judge? A. Then the judge will asses what has happened and if they find that your opponent missed the trigger accidentally, then they will likely be issued with a Missed Trigger infraction, and the trigger will be put on the bottom of the stack.
When it comes to drawing many cards this could be difficult, but for simple things like just one mine, or a Phyrexian Arena it would be easier to see.
Q. Sweet that means Transcendence is stupid broken, I'm going to clean out the LGS! A. Not at all. This issue has been noticed and is in the process of being fixed. Any new 'optional' interaction that will break cards will likely be enforced as a mandatory trigger.
I tend to believe that was the intention, but only because I can't think of anything else, under the "target your own permanents that also can target an opponent. Some judges on here, were just saying that as written it would not cover "damaging an opponent"
EDIT:
In fact I'm 99% sure reading that line, that damage is the intention and therefor inferno is most likely optional. Simply because as stated
"Exiles, damages, destroys, taps, or gives -x/-x to an opponent's target permanent. If the ability could target
your own permanents, it is not optional unless that ability could target an opponent."
You can't exile, destroy tap or give -x/-x to your opponent so it must be referring to damage. Since it's part of the same bullet.
I asked to my local L4, who in turn asked to Toby Elliot, and the answer was "We don't intervene and don't allow spectators to intervene for
missed triggers."
So no, spectators remain silent and judges only intervene if a player notice that a mandatory trigger has been forgot and call us.
Thanks for that, I'll change my post to reflect it.
I do, however, find it unusual to say the least. I'm guessing missed trigger is changing from a common occurrence to a hard-core cheat tracker.
It should also be noted that the JAR has not been updated recently. Keep that in mind when talking about Regular REL, until it is said to be one way or the other.
I think this is the wrong change. I understand the purpose but I think it is poorly implemented because it makes the rules of the game different at different RELs in a very fundamental way. At FNM, if I get to the beginning of my draw step with Grafted Skullcap and one card in my library, I die. At a PTQ, I live. This should not be considered acceptable.
If the triggers are to be optional, please make them actually optional, in all situations, not just when we happen to be at a tournament run at a high REL.
/\ /\ /\ With Flametongue Kavu, if your opponent has a legit target for it and you forget to shoot something, too bad for you. But if you're the only one with creatures out and you cast it, it's mandatory to shoot one of your own guys.
That's how I understand the ruling anyways.
No.
You can't forget drawbacks, they're still mandatory. You can only forget triggers that help you, like gaining a life from Soul Warden, etc. And your opponent is no longer obligated to remind you of your effects that benefit yourself.
I like this change a lot.
That could be interpreted differently to a dredge player wanting to discard
So, it sounds like the entire impetus for this change was the desire to not require opponents to remind you about your "Mandatory" triggers. That makes a certain amount of sense as I understand the frustration an opponent can feel when he is required by the rules to tell you something you have forgotten that is detrimental to himself. Now it's on you to remember those kind of things even if, technically, they are "mandatory." That seems reasonable.
What I am not understanding is why they are changing certain triggers to say that they are now "optional" even though they are not optional as written on the cards. Basically, saying you can ignore certain effects if you feel like it, even if it's "mandatory" and even if your opponent points it out to you. Did they do this just because they don't want rules lawyers calling judges and trying to get people penalized for missing mandatory triggers that, clearly, they weren't missing on purpose (because those triggers are usually beneficial for the players in question). So they just say those abilities are "optional" (even when they really weren't) and your opponent, who now has no obligation to remind you of the trigger, can't also try to penalize you for missing it?
Is that it?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Nice recap, parinoid. That cleared about a lot of my concerns.
I see some good and bad with this change, but I think this clears up a lot of the 'stupid' warnings players would get for simple stuff that they didn't really deserve.
That said, players will need to focus to be certain their opponent isn't angle-shooting to gain advantage. Which they should probably be doing anyway.
So will we see a massive errata update, or is this rule just going to cover that?
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So will we see a massive errata update, or is this rule just going to cover that?
Apparently, the rule is going to cover it. I asked Matt Tabak on Twitter about issuing errata to clarify which abilities are optional now, but he said that they will not be changing any card wordings.
I feel like issuing mass errata would have been (and is) the best way to go about instituting such a change. Having the rules basically contradict the Oracle wording of so many cards, in order to have cards function differently depending on the REL, seems poor and confusing to me.
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Ok I dont really understand that. Lets say my oponent misses his shrine trigger at upk/casting a spell am I now allowed not to tell him so he will have one less counter?
What if he plays skinrender and forgets to put 3 -1/-1 counters?
Finally, the fiat. I hate to do this, because it sets a bad precedent, but the alternatives are worse. It has been noted several times that there's a weird quirk with werewolves. If you don't play a spell and miss the transform trigger, then the next player doesn't play a spell, you can end up with two "transform this" triggers on the stack. That results in the werewolf ending up back where it started, despite the presence of two triggers that want it to be on the other side.
Fixing this in policy without breaking a ton of other stuff turns out to be remarkably hard. We only have transforming werewolves for one more set, and we'll see if there are any constructed-playable ones after that. In the interim, if you have one or more missed triggers (and possibly a non-missed trigger) trying to transform a werewolf, just resolve one of them to produce the intuitive result and ignore the rest. Note that some transform cards and other effects may cause this dual transformation naturally. Those are fine. This ruling is just to handle the case where there's a missed trigger.
Slightly different topic, but I fail to see how 2 Transform triggers on the stack would end up with the Werewolves back at the start.
If you have a Reckless Waif in play, and pass without casting a spell, miss the transform trigger, then your opponent passes without casting a spell, and you remember the triggers, then would you not have 2 "Transform Reckless Waif" triggers on the stack?
The first trigger resolves, turning Reckless Waif into Merciless Predator. Then the second trigger tries to resolve, and fails to find a Reckless Waif and fizzles right?
On the other hand, this could get sticky once you add in that idea of 'putting triggers on the BOTTOM of the stack'. Same scenario as above, but this time your opponent plays 2 spells on his turn.
If you had remembered your triggers, then Reckless Waif would have become a Merciless Predator and then gone back to a Reckless Waif. But instead, you can 'remember' the Waif trigger at the beginning of the upkeep, and transform her, and because Merciless Predator wasn't on the board, the transform back trigger never happened, leaving you a Predator when you should have had a Waif. I may be misunderstanding this though.
Ok... let me make sure that I totally understand 1.4. At upper REL levels, any trigger or ETB ability (with the exception of those that happen at the same time every turn) that has a POSITIVE effect to me is now optional. Any trigger or ETB that has a NEGATIVE effect to me is mandatory.
Ok I dont really understand that. Lets say my oponent misses his shrine trigger at upk/casting a spell am I now allowed not to tell him so he will have one less counter?
What if he plays skinrender and forgets to put 3 -1/-1 counters?
From Toby Eliot, the nice guy in charge of the IPG: no abuse of how a card work (Transcendence, Mind Unbound, and so on) by twisting the IPG. The HJ may deviate if a player try to rulelayer the IPG.
I really hope this is a temporary measure, as allowing the HJ to change the game rules is dangerous. I don't want to see the following:
Quote from "Hypothetical GP Coverage" »
Transcendence.dec was back in force at GP:Hypothetical, with 30% of the players running it. It made a triumphant return after being completely absent at last week's GP, since the HJ there decided to deviate.
I asked to my local L4, who in turn asked to Toby Elliot, and the answer was "We don't intervene and don't allow spectators to intervene for missed triggers."
So no, spectators remain silent and judges only intervene if a player notice that a mandatory trigger has been forgot and call us.
This doesn't apply if the spectator/judge suspects that the player is missing triggers on purpose (cheating), right?
Bitterblossom is clearly a bad example, since the life loss is part of the same ability. However, if I have a Blood Seeker in play and my opponent, who is on one life and can win next turn, has a Howlpack Alpha in play, he can decline to get another wolf token to avoid my blood seeker killing him?
I'm most bothered by this kind of interaction with the new rules. You get to ignore the effect, because it's "beneficial", except it's really not beneficial in this situation and you ought to be dead. That penalizes your opponent.
I think he was asking what happens if the opponent "forgot" to do his mandatory Skinrender trigger. Under these new rules, you are not obligated to remind him that he gets to put the counters on, right? So if he remembers it later, what happens?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Wait, so if I Mind Rot someone and they make it seem like they've put 2 cards in their graveyard when they've only put 1 and I don't catch it doesn't this make them able to use sleight of hand to cheat?
It would actually make people PAY ATTENTION TO THE GAME and not miss, say, their Shrine of Burning Rage triggers. More skill is always good for the game.
Sometimes it makes significantly less skill. If my opponent cast golgari grave troll, and says go, and then moves to put counters on his troll, i can just go "NOOOOOO, I gotcha! No counters for you!!!"
That seems much less like skill and more about making everyone be really tedious about everything obvious.
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Of course!
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Is emrakul's graveyard entering ability (or Progenitus') still mandatory under the new 1.4?
My wife was on MTV with this video.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUutIZg2EpU
What I don't understand is why is the third bullet point there if we already have the second one. If you'd be allowed to ignore the beneficial triggers, but your opponent could force them to be applied if he wishes so, that would shut any exploits down, wouldn't it?
Having a set of rules that alters what the cards do in competitive play versus regular play is absurd. I'm not saying all the changes are bad but 1.4 definitely is too subjective.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10800035#post10800035
If Damaging an opponent is not the list, I am having trouble thinking of an effect that targets both your permanents and an opponent.
Help me think of the answer! This clause has to be referring to something right?
Visual Spoiler by Cycle GW The Art of Return to Ravnica
-People who did not read or barely read the rule
-People who give scummy examples of things you can do in a Magic game that you could do before this rule was ever changed
-People who do not understand the rule
-Tragically common panic
Apparently,
"damaging an opponent" is not on the list, thus negating Inferno's eligibility for membership in the 1.4 club.
Visual Spoiler by Cycle GW The Art of Return to Ravnica
Beginning from January 1st 2012, at competitive and professional REL events (PTQ, GPT, GP, PT, etc.), triggered abilities and enters-the-battlefield replacement effects that meet the following criteria are optional:
If a triggered ability or enters-the-battlefield replacement effect would do anything that is not on that list it is still mandatory.
Additionally, a triggered ability is mandatory if it triggers at the same point in each players turn. This is regardless of whether or not it meets the above criteria.
The other change is that you no are no longer obligated to call a judge if you notice that your opponent has missed a mandatory trigger.
If your opponent notices they have missed a mandatory trigger, they must call a judge on themselves and have the judge fix it. Not doing so is still Cheating - Fraud.
If a spectator notices a mandatory trigger has been missed, they are still permitted to halt the game and find the nearest judge to fix the problem.Word on high says this is false.As far as I'm aware, if one of your teammates notices a missed trigger in your game, they must call a judge and have them fix it. Not doing so is still Cheating - Fraud.
Some examples:
A. NO. Phyrexian Arena does something that isn't on the list, it causes you to lose life. So it is still mandatory.
Q. What about Howling Mine, I can miss that if I want right?
A. If it's your Mine then you must remember it.
But, if it is your opponent's mine you are allowed to ignore it until your opponent remembers and calls a judge.
Q. How about if I have a Charmbreaker Devils and a Mystic Enforcer on the battlefield, and only seven cards in my graveyard (one is an instant). Can I miss the Devils' trigger to maintain threshold?
A. Yes, you can do that. Charmbreaker Devils' triggered ability only does things on the list (specifically point 2), so it is now purely optional.
Q. Does that mean I can remove my hand permanently with Bottled Cloister by ignoring it's second ability?
A. Yes, if you wanted to you can do that. While an ability of Bottled Cloister triggers at the same time each turn, they are two separate abilities. So while the fist ability does something not on the list (exiles your hand) the second one does only things on the list (point #2).
Q. What happens if I later chose to acknowledge Bottled Cloister's second ability?
A. The cards it exiled before are still 'cards you own exiled with Bottled Cloister', so you will get them back and draw a card.
Q. I only play at FNM. How does this affect me?
A. It won't affect you at all. This change only affects higher level events like Pro Tour, Grand Prix, Nationals and their qualifiers.
A good rule of thumb is that: if you have to fill in a decklist and there is a big prize (and invite to a large event, a trip somewhere, etc.) then the even is likely Comp+ REL and covered by these new rules.
A. Nope. You are not obligated to do anything if you notice your opponent miss a mandatory trigger.
Q. What if my opponent later notices his mistake and calls a judge?
A. Then the judge will asses what has happened and if they find that your opponent missed the trigger accidentally, then they will likely be issued with a Missed Trigger infraction, and the trigger will be put on the bottom of the stack.
When it comes to drawing many cards this could be difficult, but for simple things like just one mine, or a Phyrexian Arena it would be easier to see.
Q. Sweet that means Transcendence is stupid broken, I'm going to clean out the LGS!
A. Not at all. This issue has been noticed and is in the process of being fixed. Any new 'optional' interaction that will break cards will likely be enforced as a mandatory trigger.
I hope I've touched on everything.
I tend to believe that was the intention, but only because I can't think of anything else, under the "target your own permanents that also can target an opponent. Some judges on here, were just saying that as written it would not cover "damaging an opponent"
EDIT:
In fact I'm 99% sure reading that line, that damage is the intention and therefor inferno is most likely optional. Simply because as stated
You can't exile, destroy tap or give -x/-x to your opponent so it must be referring to damage. Since it's part of the same bullet.
Visual Spoiler by Cycle GW The Art of Return to Ravnica
Thanks for that, I'll change my post to reflect it.
I do, however, find it unusual to say the least. I'm guessing missed trigger is changing from a common occurrence to a hard-core cheat tracker.
It should also be noted that the JAR has not been updated recently. Keep that in mind when talking about Regular REL, until it is said to be one way or the other.
If the triggers are to be optional, please make them actually optional, in all situations, not just when we happen to be at a tournament run at a high REL.
That could be interpreted differently to a dredge player wanting to discard
WBG Karador GBW
R Daretti R
RG Omnath GR
WRG Modern Burn GRW
WB Modern Tokens BW
DCI Rules Advisor as of 5/18/2015
What I am not understanding is why they are changing certain triggers to say that they are now "optional" even though they are not optional as written on the cards. Basically, saying you can ignore certain effects if you feel like it, even if it's "mandatory" and even if your opponent points it out to you. Did they do this just because they don't want rules lawyers calling judges and trying to get people penalized for missing mandatory triggers that, clearly, they weren't missing on purpose (because those triggers are usually beneficial for the players in question). So they just say those abilities are "optional" (even when they really weren't) and your opponent, who now has no obligation to remind you of the trigger, can't also try to penalize you for missing it?
Is that it?
I see some good and bad with this change, but I think this clears up a lot of the 'stupid' warnings players would get for simple stuff that they didn't really deserve.
That said, players will need to focus to be certain their opponent isn't angle-shooting to gain advantage. Which they should probably be doing anyway.
So will we see a massive errata update, or is this rule just going to cover that?
Apparently, the rule is going to cover it. I asked Matt Tabak on Twitter about issuing errata to clarify which abilities are optional now, but he said that they will not be changing any card wordings.
I feel like issuing mass errata would have been (and is) the best way to go about instituting such a change. Having the rules basically contradict the Oracle wording of so many cards, in order to have cards function differently depending on the REL, seems poor and confusing to me.
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What if he plays skinrender and forgets to put 3 -1/-1 counters?
Slightly different topic, but I fail to see how 2 Transform triggers on the stack would end up with the Werewolves back at the start.
If you have a Reckless Waif in play, and pass without casting a spell, miss the transform trigger, then your opponent passes without casting a spell, and you remember the triggers, then would you not have 2 "Transform Reckless Waif" triggers on the stack?
The first trigger resolves, turning Reckless Waif into Merciless Predator. Then the second trigger tries to resolve, and fails to find a Reckless Waif and fizzles right?
On the other hand, this could get sticky once you add in that idea of 'putting triggers on the BOTTOM of the stack'. Same scenario as above, but this time your opponent plays 2 spells on his turn.
If you had remembered your triggers, then Reckless Waif would have become a Merciless Predator and then gone back to a Reckless Waif. But instead, you can 'remember' the Waif trigger at the beginning of the upkeep, and transform her, and because Merciless Predator wasn't on the board, the transform back trigger never happened, leaving you a Predator when you should have had a Waif. I may be misunderstanding this though.
Is this it in a nutshell?
Yes that is the way shrine works now.
No Skinrender is still mandatory.
He would be optional if he
a. only could target your opponents creatures or
b. could also target your opponent
To recap.
Skinrender - Mandatory
Flametongue Kavu - Mandatory
Inferno Titan - Optional (Can target opponent as well)
Acidic Slime - Mandatory
Marshdrinker Giant - Optional (Only targets opponents permanents)
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I really hope this is a temporary measure, as allowing the HJ to change the game rules is dangerous. I don't want to see the following:
This doesn't apply if the spectator/judge suspects that the player is missing triggers on purpose (cheating), right?
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
I'm most bothered by this kind of interaction with the new rules. You get to ignore the effect, because it's "beneficial", except it's really not beneficial in this situation and you ought to be dead. That penalizes your opponent.
I think he was asking what happens if the opponent "forgot" to do his mandatory Skinrender trigger. Under these new rules, you are not obligated to remind him that he gets to put the counters on, right? So if he remembers it later, what happens?
Sometimes it makes significantly less skill. If my opponent cast golgari grave troll, and says go, and then moves to put counters on his troll, i can just go "NOOOOOO, I gotcha! No counters for you!!!"
That seems much less like skill and more about making everyone be really tedious about everything obvious.