Ok is this understanding correct though. Opponent is holdingReprisal i know from Gitaxian Probe he has a board full of blockers and i only have 1 Kiln Fiend while holding a Distortion Strike could i essentially ignore the kiln fiends triggered abilitly to stay out of range of the reprisal, make him an unblockable 2/2 or unblockable 1/2 and swing in for the kill?
Ok is this understanding correct though. Opponent is holdingReprisal i know from Gitaxian Probe he has a board full of blockers and i only have 1 Kiln Fiend while holding a Distortion Strike could i essentially ignore the kiln fiends triggered abilitly to stay out of range of the reprisal, make him an unblockable 2/2 or unblockable 1/2 and swing in for the kill?
No, Kiln Fiend has a triggered ability, however, it does none of the things listed under 1.4 changing it from Mandatory to Optional, and now that i am re-reading it, neither does Steppe Lynx from earlier, making me wrong on my answer regarding it.
It cleary says "Gives +x/+x or a beneficial ability to a target creature you control." along with triggered abilities i may be understanding this wrong but that sounds very clear which is why this is retarded it ruins a decent amount of cards.
It cleary says "Gives +x/+x or a beneficial ability to a target creature you control." along with triggered abilities i may be understanding this wrong but that sounds very clear which is why this is retarded it ruins a decent amount of cards.
Kiln fiend does not Gives +x/+x or a beneficial ability to a target creature you control.
It does nothing else on the list of exceptions either.
Right now it may appear not well thought out, however, 1.4 is starting to look more and more carefully worded as every exception tries to pop up
Kiln fiend had a mandatory trigger before, and still has one after, this change.
Kiln fiend does not Gives +x/+x or a beneficial ability to a target creature you control.
It does nothing else on the list of exceptions either.
Right now it may appear not well thought out, however, 1.4 is starting to look more and more carefully worded as every exception tries to pop up
Kiln fiend had a mandatory trigger before, and still has one after, this change.
Exactly, it gives +x/+x to Kiln Fiend specifically, not to a target creature you control.
In regards to MtGO, this should be beneficial for MtGO. Look at Innistrad, I'm sure not everyone noticed, but it has a lot of mandatory triggers where before there would have been optional triggers. This means less clicking in MtGO. By shifting may triggers from the cards to the rules, the game will be friendlier for MtGO and inexperienced players, while giving more options to experienced players at higher tournament levels (because now you really have to think of that trigger yourself, your opponent is no longer obliged to remind you).
The only thing to work out is which triggers exactly fall under 1.4. I'm counting on WotC to provide us with ample examples after the holidays.
Frost is not optional, since it can hit your own permanents but not your opponent. Plus, the stays-tapped bit isn't on the list.
Grave seems like it works...however technically it might not, since it puts 2 tokens into play and 1.4 only allows "Puts a permanent into play".
Inferno is another tricky one, since it can hit your opponent and damaging your opponent is not on the list (though opponent losing life is).
Frosty is covered here
Exiles, damages, destroys, taps, or gives -x/-x to an opponent's target permanent. If the ability could target your own permanents, it is not optional unless that ability could target an opponent.
Frost Titan's ability is Tap Target Permanent.
Inferno is covered here.
Exiles, damages, destroys, taps, or gives -x/-x to an opponent's target permanent. If the ability could target your own permanents, it is not optional unless that ability could target an opponent.
However with Inferno, i can see where some would argue that it is not covered under 1.4
Exiles, damages, destroys, taps, or gives -x/-x to an opponent's target permanent. If the ability could target your own permanents, it is not optional unless that ability could target an opponent.
Frost Titan's ability is Tap Target Permanent.
And it can target your permanents, so it is not optional unless the ability could target an opponent, which it can't.
Plus, the secondary effect of not untagging isn't on the list.
Inferno is covered here.
Exiles, damages, destroys, taps, or gives -x/-x to an opponent's target permanent. If the ability could target your own permanents, it is not optional unless that ability could target an opponent.
However with Inferno, i can see where some would argue that it is not covered under 1.4
I just don't understand the logic of making some mandatory effects no longer mandatory, but only in certain tournaments. The cards should have the same functionality regardless of where you play them, and while for the majority of cases it would be identical, its the corner cases that *matter*, because they're the ones that get exploited.
1.4 only applies if everything it does is on the approved list.
I would assume that when they discuss an ability that damages a permanent and can target an opponent, they mean one that might be damaging the opponent with that ability.
I can see how this change will bring me hell, as a certified judge. My area will have several competitive REL events in the next two months as well. I have to notify my judge community right away.
I just don't understand the logic of making some mandatory effects no longer mandatory, but only in certain tournaments. The cards should have the same functionality regardless of where you play them, and while for the majority of cases it would be identical, its the corner cases that *matter*, because they're the ones that get exploited.
If i read that article excerpt correctly, this is exactly why this errata only applies to higher REL events. WotC wants 2 things.
1. Newer players (or cynically, bad players that only go to lower REL events) have a simplified ruleset that doesn't overly punish them for missed triggers, replacement effects, etc. EDIT - To elaborate, the article explains that WotC is actively trying to cut down on the number of "may" triggers as they appear on cards, even though some will continue to be "may" abilities at competitive REL events. So Joe Noobsauce gets to miss as many Shrine of Burning Rage triggers as he likes, while still getting to add counters as long as someone knows how the card should work. Meanwhile, Steve Progamer only gets a sad feeling in the pit of his stomach when he realizes he forgot 3 upkeep triggers on HIS shrine of burning rage.
2. Experienced players have an expanded ruleset that no longer requires them to notify opponent's of their missed triggers/replacement effects as long as those missed triggers fall under the new ruleset.
And it can target your permanents, so it is not optional unless the ability could target an opponent, which it can't.
It seems like that part of 1.4 should say "could target an opponent or a permanent he or she controls". It's very weird that it should just say "opponent" when the rest of the line deals with tapping permanents, giving -x/-x to a creature, and destroying permanents, all of which are actions that, by definition, can't be done to an opponent.
In that case, wouldn't it make more sense to print the cards with "may" triggers, but institute a special rule at Regular REL that opponents have to remind players of their triggers unless they specifically decline to use them? (This, incidentally, being also how it works on MTGO - I'm not allowed to forget Screeching Bat's may trigger even if I only have three lands in play.)
It's like how the distinction between Free and Derived Information doesn't apply at Regular; even though there's nothing in the CR saying that I have to remind my opponent of how big his Tarmogoyf is, we run it that way at Regular because it's easier on the new player.
The fact that we have so many Rules Advisors and Judges asking "How does XYZ work under the new Optional Abilities system?" in this thread alone should give an indication of how well your average PTQ grinder will understand this.
It seems like that part of 1.4 should say "could target an opponent or a permanent he or she controls". It's very weird that it should just say "opponent" when the rest of the line deals with tapping permanents, giving -x/-x to a creature, and destroying permanents, all of which are actions that, by definition, can't be done to an opponent.
Damage causes loss of life, but once again, it's strange not to mention this separately.
I agree that given the general intent of 1.4, Inferno Titan should work. It just doesn't at the moment. For several of the rules, it seems the wording should be somewhat more inclusive.
Another example: pumping should be allowable even if the power and toughness pump are not the same.
Quote from "~_Angel[us »
_~;7700871']I can see how this change will bring me hell, as a certified judge. My area will have several competitive REL events in the next two months as well. I have to notify my judge community right away.
Grave Titan enters the battle field, I go to begin combat. Swing. Main 2 I realize I missed the trigger, I no longer get 2/2 Zombies.
Same for every Titan now? Frost can miss tapping. Sun can miss recursion. Prime time can forgo looking for lands. Inferno can miss dealing 3.
Right? right?
No, Kiln Fiend has a triggered ability, however, it does none of the things listed under 1.4 changing it from Mandatory to Optional, and now that i am re-reading it, neither does Steppe Lynx from earlier, making me wrong on my answer regarding it.
Right Right, all of the Titan ETB Triggered Abilities, fall under the acceptable ones for optional under 1.4
Warning for Inapropriate Language
Kiln fiend does not Gives +x/+x or a beneficial ability to a target creature you control.
It does nothing else on the list of exceptions either.
Right now it may appear not well thought out, however, 1.4 is starting to look more and more carefully worded as every exception tries to pop up
Kiln fiend had a mandatory trigger before, and still has one after, this change.
Is anything on MTGO run at any REL?
I dont think this impacts MTGO at all.
Exactly, it gives +x/+x to Kiln Fiend specifically, not to a target creature you control.
In regards to MtGO, this should be beneficial for MtGO. Look at Innistrad, I'm sure not everyone noticed, but it has a lot of mandatory triggers where before there would have been optional triggers. This means less clicking in MtGO. By shifting may triggers from the cards to the rules, the game will be friendlier for MtGO and inexperienced players, while giving more options to experienced players at higher tournament levels (because now you really have to think of that trigger yourself, your opponent is no longer obliged to remind you).
The only thing to work out is which triggers exactly fall under 1.4. I'm counting on WotC to provide us with ample examples after the holidays.
No changes to Bloodgift Demon under 1.4
Can i ask, why you think there may have been?
Nope.
Primeval and Sun are optional as worded.
Frost is not optional, since it can hit your own permanents but not your opponent. Plus, the stays-tapped bit isn't on the list.
Grave seems like it works...however technically it might not, since it puts 2 tokens into play and 1.4 only allows "Puts a permanent into play".
Inferno is another tricky one, since it can hit your opponent and damaging your opponent is not on the list (though opponent losing life is).
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
Frosty is covered here
Exiles, damages, destroys, taps, or gives -x/-x to an opponent's target permanent. If the ability could target your own permanents, it is not optional unless that ability could target an opponent.
Frost Titan's ability is Tap Target Permanent.
Inferno is covered here.
Exiles, damages, destroys, taps, or gives -x/-x to an opponent's target permanent. If the ability could target your own permanents, it is not optional unless that ability could target an opponent.
However with Inferno, i can see where some would argue that it is not covered under 1.4
And it can target your permanents, so it is not optional unless the ability could target an opponent, which it can't.
Plus, the secondary effect of not untagging isn't on the list.
There's no allowance for damaging an opponent.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
It's one of the cards that I tend to forget the trigger.
What he is saying, is it can also Damage an opponent, which is not on the list, which makes it mandatory.
But it can also damage an opponent.
1.4 only applies if everything it does is on the approved list.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
I would assume that when they discuss an ability that damages a permanent and can target an opponent, they mean one that might be damaging the opponent with that ability.
The whole thing is a mess.
This post said it best
It seems like that part of 1.4 should say "could target an opponent or a permanent he or she controls". It's very weird that it should just say "opponent" when the rest of the line deals with tapping permanents, giving -x/-x to a creature, and destroying permanents, all of which are actions that, by definition, can't be done to an opponent.
Damage causes loss of life, but once again, it's strange not to mention this separately.
It's like how the distinction between Free and Derived Information doesn't apply at Regular; even though there's nothing in the CR saying that I have to remind my opponent of how big his Tarmogoyf is, we run it that way at Regular because it's easier on the new player.
The fact that we have so many Rules Advisors and Judges asking "How does XYZ work under the new Optional Abilities system?" in this thread alone should give an indication of how well your average PTQ grinder will understand this.
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I agree that given the general intent of 1.4, Inferno Titan should work. It just doesn't at the moment. For several of the rules, it seems the wording should be somewhat more inclusive.
Another example: pumping should be allowable even if the power and toughness pump are not the same.
It's a nice time for a vacation IMO.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)