Goyf isn't banned because he is basically a vanilla creature.
Imagine a 20/20 vanilla for 2 mana. Isn't it ban worthy? There you go!
I'm sick of hearing the vanilla thing about goyf. If they haven't banned it already in any format it's because of wizard's fetish for aggro creatures, even if goyf is played in all kinds of control decks because of how busted it is. Hmm, does it ring any bell? Yeah... just like SFM.
1) You can't say "NO BANLIST" then say "Except Skullclamp". Cake and the Eating thereof etc.
Skullclamp is the only one really broken card on the list, it's banned in Legacy, I don't think any sane person would consider making it legal in a tournament format outside Vintage.
2) Newsflash: They DID test it. The data from Old Extended, coupled with, ya know, using your brain, had lead to a fine Banlist.
They just go like, oh, let's ban something blue, BAM Jace, Misstep and Vision just because they see play in top legacy decks. And also let's ban Bitterblossom just because we're afraid the PT may be full of Faeries. If they did even a little testing they would know how much the Burnwillows+Punishing Fire combo that WILL be everywhere hoses faeries.
How you can think they would test such a broad new format when they don't even test standard properely? (oh how unexpected that Stoneforge Mystic was good with equipments)
Imagine a 20/20 vanilla for 2 mana. Isn't it ban worthy? There you go!
I'm sick of hearing the vanilla thing about goyf. If they haven't banned it already in any format it's because of wizard's fetish for aggro creatures, even if goyf is played in all kinds of control decks because of how busted it is. Hmm, does it ring any bell? Yeah... just like SFM.
Stoneforge and Goyf are two VASTLY different things. Stoneforge was the engine for many bad combos, and more importantly it severely limited design for equipment because now every time a new one was made, the question would have to be asked "just how badly can this be abused with stoneforge?" In other words, for totally different reasons than why people think Goyf should go.
Goyf is a borderline mistake, but the sheer amount of spot removal that can kill it and the fact that it doesn't have any extra abilities like trample, protection, etc keeps it out from under the banhammer.
Are you forgetting that it was the format used in a rather big Magic online tournament with a much smaller banned list? I'm pretty sure that's where they derived a lot of their info from.
They just go like, oh, let's ban something blue, BAM Jace, Misstep and Vision just because they see play in top legacy decks. And also let's ban Bitterblossom just because we're afraid the PT may be full of Faeries. If they did even a little testing they would know how much the Burnwillows+Punishing Fire combo that WILL be everywhere hoses faeries.
The "we hadn't touched blue yet" was a tongue in cheek comment. Stop getting all worked up. Jace had to go. I'm sure the investors would have loved for him to stay, but the card is broken. Bitterblossom is a card that WotC has called a mistake on their part. I'm honestly surprised it never got banned when it was in Standard. And so what that ONE deck can beat it. If that deck can't beat anything else consistently, then it's not worth playing. It takes us back to the dirty black summer of Necro, when most of the field were Necropotence decks, then a small percentage were Sligh just because that had the best chance of beating Necro, and the last 1% were rogue decks designed to beat Sligh and hoping not to run into Necro. That era was worse than the recent Standard Caw-Blade fiasco, and I'm not interested in revisiting it yet again.
One more time, for you and every other chicken little out there. CALM DOWN. This is a new format, and there's going to be growing pains. If you can provide WotC with well-constructed intelligent feedback instead of screaming like a doomsayer on a message board, you might get a little more attention.
I'd rather they overban and then slowly unban cards than not ban enough cards.
The problem I see is that its much harder to get a card unbanned than it is to get a card banned. Cards have been on the banned list for Legacy for ages and have never really been offensive and it takes years for them to get unbanned. So unless they are more careful with how they manage the banned list, Overbanning will result in cards being on the banned list for ages and not really belonging which hurts Wizards credibility with the banned list.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
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But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
Goyf, the most powerful creature in the game besides dark confidant and stoneforge mystic. Nothing else comes close sans knight of the reliquary but notice how knight doesn't cost 2 mana or less.
Ancestral vision and mental misstep don't warrant bannings at all. So ancestral recall on turn 5 at the earliest is broke? Games are already decided by turn 5. Mental misstep? Really? Hopefully this is a foretelling that they ban it in legacy but I doubt it. The card just isn't banworthy at all WotC.
We haven't banned a blue card yet, let's ban jace, the mind sculptor. Oh and then misstep and visions as well.
12post will win the pro tour for modern, it would suprise me if it didn't. Especially if people don't take it seriously. Zoo seems to be the "OMG THIS DECK IS BONKERS IT HAD NOTHING BANNED!!!!!!!!!111!!!!!!1111!!!1" despite getting crushed by 12post especially if moment's peace gets reprinted in Innistrad.
I'm almost surprised that dragonstorm didn't get banned with how liberal they were with the banlist. Although I guess it's a turn 4 combo deck what with lotus bloom entering the battlefield that turn and them having to sculpt their board and hand during the first three.
I guess we get gifts ungiven at least? I'm a bit sad they didn't extend modern back to invasion though. Makes the cardpool a lot better for brewing up decks and I just really wanted to play domain control with collective restraint.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Imagine a 20/20 vanilla for 2 mana. Isn't it ban worthy? There you go!
I'm sick of hearing the vanilla thing about goyf. If they haven't banned it already in any format it's because of wizard's fetish for aggro creatures, even if goyf is played in all kinds of control decks because of how busted it is. Hmm, does it ring any bell? Yeah... just like SFM.
A 20/20 for 2 mana would get banned. Tarmogoyf is at best a 8/9 for 2, and most of the time is probably a 4 or 5 power creature. I'm sick of hearing the 20/20 argument because everyone uses it, and it is just ridiculous.
Darn, I got a 4/5 or a 5/6 for 2 mana. I feel so depressed that tarmogoyf apparently doesn't do it for people anymore. Just when people thought "he just isn't that good" when goyf was going for 2 dollars a pop. When will you people understand that goyf is the standard beater of choice and will always be the beater of choice if he's allowed in a format. You're playing green? Well, you might as well start building a 56 card deck because 4 card's have already been decided in your maindeck.
Though WotC loves them some aggro decks; yeah, let's travel back in time to 1994 when the only thing people built were aggro decks with shivan dragons, juzam djinn's, and serra angel's. Yeah. I love turning these creatures sideways and winning with them at least that's wizards' opinion.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Are you forgetting that it was the format used in a rather big Magic online tournament with a much smaller banned list? I'm pretty sure that's where they derived a lot of their info from.
Have you checked any details about that tournament? By the way it was set up it just couldn't produce any worthwhile results, especially not show how
The "we hadn't touched blue yet" was a tongue in cheek comment. Stop getting all worked up. Jace had to go. I'm sure the investors would have loved for him to stay, but the card is broken. Bitterblossom is a card that WotC has called a mistake on their part. I'm honestly surprised it never got banned when it was in Standard. And so what that ONE deck can beat it. If that deck can't beat anything else consistently, then it's not worth playing. It takes us back to the dirty black summer of Necro, when most of the field were Necropotence decks, then a small percentage were Sligh just because that had the best chance of beating Necro, and the last 1% were rogue decks designed to beat Sligh and hoping not to run into Necro. That era was worse than the recent Standard Caw-Blade fiasco, and I'm not interested in revisiting it yet again.
One more time, for you and every other chicken little out there. CALM DOWN. This is a new format, and there's going to be growing pains. If you can provide WotC with well-constructed intelligent feedback instead of screaming like a doomsayer on a message board, you might get a little more attention.
For many many years they weren't banning any single card in Standard, they were just releasing more sets and letting players adapt to change. They finally had to drop the banhammer on the most overpowered card since Skullclamp that is SFM because the tournament attendance suffered a lot. But that's Standard. Modern is a much much wider format so there's no way a card like Bitterblossom would turn it into something like Necro-summer. No way, especially if you keep many other powerful decks viable.
Where has suddenly gone the idea of banning only cards that have PROVEN themselves to be badly format wrapping in THAT given format?
Sigh. I hope the shocklands get a reprint soon. The speculation has now just gone to stupid levels. I mean, seriously... all of them jumping 3 to 4 times in value, pretty much overnight? The format hasn't even started to see play yet. BOOOO!
For those of you hate and whine, I just want to throw in my two cents.
I have been investing rather heavily (by trade and purchase) to play blue and black in modern. I have finally got a hold of two Jaces, Three Bitterblossoms, Mental Missteps, Ancestral Visions and Stoneforge Packages and other important cards. I have yet to complain.
I honestly feel that the bannings are respectable. I realize that those cards are played too much and as Tom Lapille says, "Modern is not intended to permanently replace any existing format." They are trying their hardest to make a new, fresh format that is not the Old Extended or current Legacy. I find that this decision is rather wise of them to make as he said "Second, we can always unban cards in the future. In Vintage and Legacy, over time we have been continually picking away at the respective restricted and banned lists, and both are at historical lows in terms of the percentage of the card pool that is banned or restricted." In light of this, let's look forward to this new format and the different ideas we can come up with that doesn't include the old staples.
I for one will cheer at Wizards for their decision despite my loss.
For those of you hate and whine, I just want to throw in my two cents.
I have been investing rather heavily (by trade and purchase) to play blue and black in modern. I have finally got a hold of two Jaces, Three Bitterblossoms, Mental Missteps, Ancestral Visions and Stoneforge Packages and other important cards. I have yet to complain.
I honestly feel that the bannings are respectable. I realize that those cards are played too much and as Tom Lapille says, "Modern is not intended to permanently replace any existing format." They are trying their hardest to make a new, fresh format that is not the Old Extended or current Legacy. I find that this decision is rather wise of them to make as he said "Second, we can always unban cards in the future. In Vintage and Legacy, over time we have been continually picking away at the respective restricted and banned lists, and both are at historical lows in terms of the percentage of the card pool that is banned or restricted." In light of this, let's look forward to this new format and the different ideas we can come up with that doesn't include the old staples.
I for one will cheer at Wizards for their decision despite my loss.
Good to see someone who is actually looking at these bannings with a bit of rationality instead of flipping out and running around screaming the sky is falling. I know the opinion of a random person on the internet doesn't mean a lot but I still salute you here good sir. You deserve and internet cookie.
Ancestral vision and mental misstep don't warrant bannings at all. So ancestral recall on turn 5 at the earliest is broke? Games are already decided by turn 5.
Sure, and you do realize decks exist out there to exploit it having 0 casting cost right? I mean I would hope you know that, but sure we'll go with your idea that casting it turn 5.
i wonder why goyf isnt it the ban list....we'll return to the format where every deck starts with 4 tarmogoyfs and then 56 other cards to fill the deck.
Sadly 'Goyf's best friend from legacy, Careful Study, wasn't invited to the Modern party.
I'm glad they were liberal with the bannings at the start. Much easier to remove things later than to add things. The only card I'm not sure I understand on there is Mental Misstep, but I'd rather them be liberal in the early going than more conservative.
Imagine a 20/20 vanilla for 2 mana. Isn't it ban worthy? There you go!
I'm sick of hearing the vanilla thing about goyf. If they haven't banned it already in any format it's because of wizard's fetish for aggro creatures, even if goyf is played in all kinds of control decks because of how busted it is. Hmm, does it ring any bell? Yeah... just like SFM.
Skullclamp is the only one really broken card on the list, it's banned in Legacy, I don't think any sane person would consider making it legal in a tournament format outside Vintage.
Have you read the article at all? Here, link for you: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/155
no mentions of any testing at all. They're just making assumptions based on other formats.
They just go like, oh, let's ban something blue, BAM Jace, Misstep and Vision just because they see play in top legacy decks. And also let's ban Bitterblossom just because we're afraid the PT may be full of Faeries. If they did even a little testing they would know how much the Burnwillows+Punishing Fire combo that WILL be everywhere hoses faeries.
How you can think they would test such a broad new format when they don't even test standard properely? (oh how unexpected that Stoneforge Mystic was good with equipments)
Stoneforge and Goyf are two VASTLY different things. Stoneforge was the engine for many bad combos, and more importantly it severely limited design for equipment because now every time a new one was made, the question would have to be asked "just how badly can this be abused with stoneforge?" In other words, for totally different reasons than why people think Goyf should go.
Goyf is a borderline mistake, but the sheer amount of spot removal that can kill it and the fact that it doesn't have any extra abilities like trample, protection, etc keeps it out from under the banhammer.
Once again, calm down Beavis.
Are you forgetting that it was the format used in a rather big Magic online tournament with a much smaller banned list? I'm pretty sure that's where they derived a lot of their info from.
The "we hadn't touched blue yet" was a tongue in cheek comment. Stop getting all worked up. Jace had to go. I'm sure the investors would have loved for him to stay, but the card is broken. Bitterblossom is a card that WotC has called a mistake on their part. I'm honestly surprised it never got banned when it was in Standard. And so what that ONE deck can beat it. If that deck can't beat anything else consistently, then it's not worth playing. It takes us back to the dirty black summer of Necro, when most of the field were Necropotence decks, then a small percentage were Sligh just because that had the best chance of beating Necro, and the last 1% were rogue decks designed to beat Sligh and hoping not to run into Necro. That era was worse than the recent Standard Caw-Blade fiasco, and I'm not interested in revisiting it yet again.
One more time, for you and every other chicken little out there. CALM DOWN. This is a new format, and there's going to be growing pains. If you can provide WotC with well-constructed intelligent feedback instead of screaming like a doomsayer on a message board, you might get a little more attention.
The problem I see is that its much harder to get a card unbanned than it is to get a card banned. Cards have been on the banned list for Legacy for ages and have never really been offensive and it takes years for them to get unbanned. So unless they are more careful with how they manage the banned list, Overbanning will result in cards being on the banned list for ages and not really belonging which hurts Wizards credibility with the banned list.
Ancestral vision and mental misstep don't warrant bannings at all. So ancestral recall on turn 5 at the earliest is broke? Games are already decided by turn 5. Mental misstep? Really? Hopefully this is a foretelling that they ban it in legacy but I doubt it. The card just isn't banworthy at all WotC.
We haven't banned a blue card yet, let's ban jace, the mind sculptor. Oh and then misstep and visions as well.
12post will win the pro tour for modern, it would suprise me if it didn't. Especially if people don't take it seriously. Zoo seems to be the "OMG THIS DECK IS BONKERS IT HAD NOTHING BANNED!!!!!!!!!111!!!!!!1111!!!1" despite getting crushed by 12post especially if moment's peace gets reprinted in Innistrad.
I'm almost surprised that dragonstorm didn't get banned with how liberal they were with the banlist. Although I guess it's a turn 4 combo deck what with lotus bloom entering the battlefield that turn and them having to sculpt their board and hand during the first three.
I guess we get gifts ungiven at least? I'm a bit sad they didn't extend modern back to invasion though. Makes the cardpool a lot better for brewing up decks and I just really wanted to play domain control with collective restraint.
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A 20/20 for 2 mana would get banned. Tarmogoyf is at best a 8/9 for 2, and most of the time is probably a 4 or 5 power creature. I'm sick of hearing the 20/20 argument because everyone uses it, and it is just ridiculous.
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Though WotC loves them some aggro decks; yeah, let's travel back in time to 1994 when the only thing people built were aggro decks with shivan dragons, juzam djinn's, and serra angel's. Yeah. I love turning these creatures sideways and winning with them at least that's wizards' opinion.
Currently Playing:
Retired
Have you checked any details about that tournament? By the way it was set up it just couldn't produce any worthwhile results, especially not show how
For many many years they weren't banning any single card in Standard, they were just releasing more sets and letting players adapt to change. They finally had to drop the banhammer on the most overpowered card since Skullclamp that is SFM because the tournament attendance suffered a lot. But that's Standard. Modern is a much much wider format so there's no way a card like Bitterblossom would turn it into something like Necro-summer. No way, especially if you keep many other powerful decks viable.
Where has suddenly gone the idea of banning only cards that have PROVEN themselves to be badly format wrapping in THAT given format?
I have been investing rather heavily (by trade and purchase) to play blue and black in modern. I have finally got a hold of two Jaces, Three Bitterblossoms, Mental Missteps, Ancestral Visions and Stoneforge Packages and other important cards. I have yet to complain.
I honestly feel that the bannings are respectable. I realize that those cards are played too much and as Tom Lapille says, "Modern is not intended to permanently replace any existing format." They are trying their hardest to make a new, fresh format that is not the Old Extended or current Legacy. I find that this decision is rather wise of them to make as he said "Second, we can always unban cards in the future. In Vintage and Legacy, over time we have been continually picking away at the respective restricted and banned lists, and both are at historical lows in terms of the percentage of the card pool that is banned or restricted." In light of this, let's look forward to this new format and the different ideas we can come up with that doesn't include the old staples.
I for one will cheer at Wizards for their decision despite my loss.
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Good to see someone who is actually looking at these bannings with a bit of rationality instead of flipping out and running around screaming the sky is falling. I know the opinion of a random person on the internet doesn't mean a lot but I still salute you here good sir. You deserve and internet cookie.
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Sure, and you do realize decks exist out there to exploit it having 0 casting cost right? I mean I would hope you know that, but sure we'll go with your idea that casting it turn 5.
Sadly 'Goyf's best friend from legacy, Careful Study, wasn't invited to the Modern party.
I would suggest that Emrakul, the Aeons Torn is the most powerful creature in the game. Tarmogoyf is probably the most effecient vanilla beater. Stoneforge Mystic and Dark Confidant probably qualify as the best unitility creatures tho.
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