The issue isn't really card prices, it's card availability and access at newer stores. They don't want you to have to order most of your cards online for a PTQ.
Availability and prices are one in the same when it comes to Legacy; but that's just semantics. Both are issues that make fully supporting an Eternal Format season (Legacy/Vintage) impossible; or rather unfair to the majority of players.
And it is rather annoying that the 2 year old B&M store around this area only has an Enlightened Tutor and Living Wish in stock as Legacy staples.
--------
I'm really hoping Modern kicks off in one way or another; I don't really mind which set they start from; but I think starting at Invasion would be the best idea;
To add to the, "But people won't know which set came out when" argument against starting before Modern Frames, I think when you're getting into a format it's rather easy to Google, "Modern format Legal Sets". And be presented with a whole list of sets and thusly a whole list of cards that are legal;
5 years from now they're going to have printed a ton more extra products aside from sets that'll have more and more old cards in the 'modern frame'. So the confusion will only get worse, yes?
And i mean, what happens when in 10 years they switch the card-frames again and make them what they were in Future Sight? What will happen then? Fires in the streets? Rioting? Massive confusion?
My point being; picking the starting set from something as Arbitrary as card frames seems ludicrous. They should pick the beginning set given because it's the card-pool that seems more RIGHT for the format; Catering to people that can't use Google to see which sets are legal seems rather dumb.
How many infractions do you think will be given from people dropping Wild Mongrels in their decks when Modern PTQs roll around?
It's a logical fallacy to remedy confusion with a solution that also can and probably will cause confusion. The trick is the just make people be informed themselves; and personally i think just giving people the starter set and telling them from then on that's what's legal is a lot less confusing when learning the order of set releases is a google-search away. And using the catch-all, "Most everything in mordern frames is legal!" will end up leading to more confusion.
Availability and prices are one in the same when it comes to Legacy; but that's just semantics. Both are issues that make fully supporting an Eternal Format season (Legacy/Vintage) impossible; or rather unfair to the majority of players.
And it is rather annoying that the 2 year old B&M store around this area only has an Enlightened Tutor and Living Wish in stock as Legacy staples.
The same issues would pop up with Modern as a PTQ format as well. The prices would be much less of an issue, but there would still be issues with people simply not having them in stock at stores that have opened in the past few years.
The same issues would pop up with Modern as a PTQ format as well. The prices would be much less of an issue, but there would still be issues with people simply not having them in stock at stores that have opened in the past few years.
i think the difference here is the fact that if Wizards truly wanted to support Modern they'd be able to because of the lack of Reserved List; as in if a very expensive not widely avaible staple crops up it'd be rather easy to print an Event Deck; or some sort of bubble-gum Promo for it that you could find in a wal-mart booster pack? Or something of that nature.
Personally I never had a problem finding Allied Fetchies for my cube, or things like Desolation Angel, etc, etc.
And I don't have any problem finding Goyfs, despite their price and limited availability.
Granted; I generally find these cards from players and not any of the local GS's. But I suppose that's where the Event Decks come in. Or they could do Modern-Game Days where they have promos of said cards given to stores for these events, or they could make another Judge Promo type program where they print a decent number of certain promos and give them to local GS's for giving out or selling to the players.
Given the lack of Reserved List the possibilites for truly supporting this format WHILE also aiding Local GS's is close to being endless.
(And a full art game-day promo of Bob would be a wet-dream, yes?:cool2:)
Agreed. But if you're chatting at your LGS, it's a right pain to have to get your smartphone out and start googling. Or if you're thinking about decks in the shower.
I'm sure there are many, many examples (and better ones than mine) of when not having to google something is the far superior scenario.
But it's an imaginary scenario, since you still need to check no matter where the line is drawn.
I know if they said invasion forward I would know every legal set in the format right off the bat without having to look it up. Same with masques, mirrodin, ravnica, name the cutoff point and I will know what blocks are legal it isn't hard people. Magic as a game doesn't have that many blocks of sets and they're generally easy to remember since I dunno we only get one new set of cards every few months and if you're into the game you know every single set that's legal in a certain format.
Also the problem with the modern frames idea is what others have said. People could start whipping out wild mongrel's and co. from duel decks or what have you which is more confusing than having the cutoff set at masques or invasion IMO.
Also Torm the reason you find goyfs among players and not in stock at stores is because people generally hold onto their legacy staples or what have you because they're hard to find and if you don't have a playset of goyf or something you'll have to get it back sometime if you plan on playing in the format.
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I would definitely advocate removing the duals from the reserved list. Price may not come down too too much while they're in Standard, but they'd probably drop to $20-30 or so after they rotate. Maybe lower. Duals seem to be the biggest cost barrier for most players. FoW and goyf as well, but they *could* be reprinted at any time. Who knows?
If stoneforge mystic can be printed I see no reason why force and gofy couldn't be reprinted. Force is far more problematic than Goyf as it is one of the best cards ever printed, but it's still feels somewhat fair, as long as something like Big Jace isn't on the table to mitigate the CD. Goyf is still vanilla at the end of the day. I never really saw it as a 50 dollar card. I'd love for Duals to be reprinted as well, but I feel it's just a pipe dream as they are among the most collectible of all cards.
If stoneforge mystic can be printed I see no reason why force and gofy couldn't be reprinted. Force is far more problematic than Goyf as it is one of the best cards ever printed, but it's still feels somewhat fair, as long as something like Big Jace isn't on the table to mitigate the CD. Goyf is still vanilla at the end of the day. I never really saw it as a 50 dollar card. I'd love for Duals to be reprinted as well, but I feel it's just a pipe dream as they are among the most collectible of all cards.
The trouble with reprinting a card while it's value is at like 50$ is that it really makes the market screwy if it's a one-off reprinting like an event deck or a From The Vault.
All of the reprint product sells out instantly, the price fluctuates wildly, and everyone who wants anything but goyf out of that product becomes unhappy. And everyone whose goyfs lost value becomes unhappy.
It's one thing for a standard staple, where the card is still highly available, but for an older card like goyf that many people had to pay an arm and a leg to acquire...
I can only see wizards doing it if it becomes the lesser of two evils between that and it being too big a barrier to entry for the growth of a new format.
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Slingin' cardboard out of Yokohama, Japan. (if you're local and play EDH or want to test competitive, drop me a line!)
I don't know if this has been posted but here are a few links to some modern tourney's held on magic-league. Hypergenisis isn't really a problem. The combo deck of choice seems to be melira sylvok outcast persist decks. That could also be dealt with with a simple meddling mage.
Zoo seems to be making good appearances. Blood Moon I suspect is doing a lot of work. The Mystical teachings toolbox is also representing along with the stoneforge toolbox. Might want to keep them if you have them.
Zoo if it is to dominate needs to figure out how to beat the eldrazi big decks lifegain from the locus lands. I mean if virtually 2-for-ones as playing the locus lands give them lots of mana and also a lot of life. Some anti lifegain tech is surely needed as they are very slow and could easily be beat if the lifegain can be dealt with.
After doing some play testing and playing in a couple unsanctioned tournys of both modern and overextended, I am hoping they do both formats. I know this probably wont be the plan but I think there is enough of a difference in the meta that both could thrive with the right backing from Wotc. Either format would be amazing to play regularly.
I don't know if this has been posted but here are a few links to some modern tourney's held on magic-league. Hypergenisis isn't really a problem. The combo deck of choice seems to be melira sylvok outcast persist decks. That could also be dealt with with a simple meddling mage.
Zoo seems to be making good appearances. Blood Moon I suspect is doing a lot of work. The Mystical teachings toolbox is also representing along with the stoneforge toolbox. Might want to keep them if you have them.
Zoo if it is to dominate needs to figure out how to beat the eldrazi big decks lifegain from the locus lands. I mean if virtually 2-for-ones as playing the locus lands give them lots of mana and also a lot of life. Some anti lifegain tech is surely needed as they are very slow and could easily be beat if the lifegain can be dealt with.
The No-Land Miracles deck really caught my eye. Looks like it's fun to play; and could sand-bag an unwary opponent. "Damn, i got land-screwed, guess i'll keep it."
The large number of UW Vial Fish shows that Stoneforge will be a staple in this format; And Yeah, Zoo is looking strong (it virtually only lost non-shock duals in it's transition from Legacy, so that's not too surprising.)
the 10-12 Post Big Green Eldrazi decks look pretty awesome, too.
The thing i'm most excited about though is being able to use my Figures of Destiny, again.
Overall, it's looking rather healthy with the current ban-list.
I really thought hypergenisis/Scapeshift would dominate this format. Wow i was wrong. Zoo/vile fish seem really nice i would never have suspected it. Also, what about fae? They have damnation back along with ancestral. I bet LSV would be playing something like that.
Also when do the constructed community cup rounds start?
So instead of change the reprint policy, you try to kill a format with a new lame one WOTC? Such laziness. Don't they get it, people want to play with these old cards. REPRINT THEM ALREADY. They constantly do this." we do not want to make collectors and card hoarders angry."
Also this SHADOW reserved list is getting annoying to. Maze of ith, Force of will, etc not being reprinted is a blatant way to let certain cards appreciate in value. They have a secret policy on certain cards. We will NEVER see cards that are on the reserve list back in the people's hands who can afford them.Magic has always been a game of the haves and have nots. Wotc has decided to favor the HAVES.
People hate the standard and Legacy formats because of WOTCs refusal to print more cards and creating mythics. The prices are SO high in alot of these formats, your average player cannot play in them. Caw-blade costs what? 600-700$$$ to build? I have been playing Magic for 15 years and that price is ridiculous. These high prices are all of WOTCs making. Now they want to dodge the real solutions and come up with another crap format, that will just elevate prices of newer cards even more. PRINT MORE CARDS WOTC! Give the people what they want. Stop listening to the secondary market robber barons.
I don't agree with Mythic rares, but i agree with the fact thar some cards should stay out of standard... NOT BECAUSE OF PRICE, but BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT FUN!!!
I mean... imagine FoW in standard... turn one countermagic (counters anything) is not fun... caw blade has been a dominant archetype witout this... imagine if it were legal... the same argument can be made for many of the legacy staples.
As for modern magic... i would have wanted it to be invasion fwd... but its way better than the current extended.
I don't agree with Mythic rares, but i agree with the fact thar some cards should stay out of standard... NOT BECAUSE OF PRICE, but BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT FUN!!!
I mean... imagine FoW in standard... turn one countermagic (counters anything) is not fun... caw blade has been a dominant archetype witout this... imagine if it were legal... the same argument can be made for many of the legacy staples.
fow is actually quite crappy if it's get reprinted in standard. it's 2 for 1 yourself. standard isn't fast like legacy where everything revolves around the first four turns and there are no broken combo decks, so you don't need turn 0 or 1 counter.
it's moderate or a complete garbage in standard. just like when tarmogoyf was in standard, he was mediocre in standard as oppose as in legacy.
i saw a lot of people complaning about the mytics and never said anything about it, but would you want to crack a pack you bought for 4 and have sure you lost money because you cant get a card that is worth more that you paid for the pack, and that you be true just look at the prices of rares now, the game grew a lot and there are too many rares avaliable,so the value of them for trade would be very very low.
i do bellive that could hurt the player base more that the mythics done our could do
The reason rares are rarely worth much now is because of mythics. When they added mythics they made rares more common.
Without mythics, you have more moderate-value cards but fewer ultra-expensive cards and fewer bulk-value cards.
You may think that... i mean yes there'e no broken combos in estandar but counter's are always like that you get 1 for 1 at best... but counters are meant to only get you so far... (ie turn3 in legacy, turn 5 or 6 in standard) after that no aggro deck can reliably beat a control deck because control decks generate card advantage wich usually offsets the one for ones and two for ones thaat you give out in the early turns to stay alive so your CA spells start paying out.
You may think that... i mean yes there'e no broken combos in estandar but counter's are always like that you get 1 for 1 at best... but counters are meant to only get you so far... (ie turn3 in legacy, turn 5 or 6 in standard) after that no aggro deck can reliably beat a control deck because control decks generate card advantage wich usually offsets the one for ones and two for ones thaat you give out in the early turns to stay alive so your CA spells start paying out.
So yes... FoW can't be in standard
if i'm an aggro player, i would gladly let u force of will my t1 lacerator or a t3 kalastria highborn. you just 2 for 1 yourself, and the other blue card u pitch can be a jace or a preordain or another counter. that's just lol.
just look at aggro vs. control deck in legacy. force of will is easily one of the worst card against zoo or merfolk. control deck takes them out g2 and g3 since boarding in spot removals are just 100x better against aggros than trying to counter them.
I just dont see why people dont say what they mean. non-creature spells used to be game winning cards. Now its about creature spells that are awesome and protect your planes walking game winners. The solution go back to the way it used to be people liked it more an complained less. Ok so why dont they just print good creature an non-creature spells and dial back the planes walkers to a more reasonable power level not this one card will win me the game. I think things just need to be balanced out regardless of weather or not is "unfun" or new players will cry themselves to sleep because they dont understand the fundamentals. But no they go and make a new format. Im glad they did because standard and extended are stale but instead of fixing the other formats they try to dodge it or ignore it they need to fix the ones we already have. Seriously wizards/Hasbro is becoming Nintendo and forgetting the old customer base for the sake of the new. That is why the game is the way it is now Because new players dont like Pain lands, having there spells countered, having there creature dealt with the list goes on. Seriously guys if they want to be good business men/women they need to focus on the old as well as the new player base.
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So.. yeah... against weenies i would definitely board it out... but how about i counter your fauna shaman? Koth? Basicly... counter whatever is relevant enough for me to counter... all that while being capable of tapping out to play jace or whatever gives me CA and i roll over you afterwards....
i would still take fauna shaman for force of will since the other blue card u pitch can be crucial. also, caw blade would still rather dismember fauna shaman than trying to fow it. the impact for fauna shaman is not high enough in this standard. caw blade can deal with it just fine. we'd be seeing a lot more fauna shaman decks but we don't.
and i don't know why you bring up koth. by the time aggro can land koth, u already got mana leak or sfm + spell pierce back up, or just take a hit and flashes in batterskull and beat koth.
anyway there is nothing broken about force of will. it's one of the most balance card and keep everything in tact in legacy, so i don't mind they print it in set. thou highly unlikely.
I don't agree with Mythic rares, but i agree with the fact thar some cards should stay out of standard... NOT BECAUSE OF PRICE, but BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT FUN!!!
I mean... imagine FoW in standard... turn one countermagic (counters anything) is not fun... caw blade has been a dominant archetype witout this... imagine if it were legal... the same argument can be made for many of the legacy staples.
As for modern magic... i would have wanted it to be invasion fwd... but its way better than the current extended.
Best regards
Standard: Card advantage.
Legacy: Tempo.
What I'm trying to say is that in Legacy, the game is drawn out and is decided on one to two cards played at the right time or sticking around. As for standard, you cycle through cards at ridiculous speeds and you tend to need a lot of fodder for that. Pitching two cards from your hand to counter one card is horrible in standard. The more cards you have at your disposal, the better. In standard, this is the lifeline.
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Availability and prices are one in the same when it comes to Legacy; but that's just semantics. Both are issues that make fully supporting an Eternal Format season (Legacy/Vintage) impossible; or rather unfair to the majority of players.
And it is rather annoying that the 2 year old B&M store around this area only has an Enlightened Tutor and Living Wish in stock as Legacy staples.
--------
I'm really hoping Modern kicks off in one way or another; I don't really mind which set they start from; but I think starting at Invasion would be the best idea;
To add to the, "But people won't know which set came out when" argument against starting before Modern Frames, I think when you're getting into a format it's rather easy to Google, "Modern format Legal Sets". And be presented with a whole list of sets and thusly a whole list of cards that are legal;
5 years from now they're going to have printed a ton more extra products aside from sets that'll have more and more old cards in the 'modern frame'. So the confusion will only get worse, yes?
And i mean, what happens when in 10 years they switch the card-frames again and make them what they were in Future Sight? What will happen then? Fires in the streets? Rioting? Massive confusion?
My point being; picking the starting set from something as Arbitrary as card frames seems ludicrous. They should pick the beginning set given because it's the card-pool that seems more RIGHT for the format; Catering to people that can't use Google to see which sets are legal seems rather dumb.
How many infractions do you think will be given from people dropping Wild Mongrels in their decks when Modern PTQs roll around?
It's a logical fallacy to remedy confusion with a solution that also can and probably will cause confusion. The trick is the just make people be informed themselves; and personally i think just giving people the starter set and telling them from then on that's what's legal is a lot less confusing when learning the order of set releases is a google-search away. And using the catch-all, "Most everything in mordern frames is legal!" will end up leading to more confusion.
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The same issues would pop up with Modern as a PTQ format as well. The prices would be much less of an issue, but there would still be issues with people simply not having them in stock at stores that have opened in the past few years.
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
i think the difference here is the fact that if Wizards truly wanted to support Modern they'd be able to because of the lack of Reserved List; as in if a very expensive not widely avaible staple crops up it'd be rather easy to print an Event Deck; or some sort of bubble-gum Promo for it that you could find in a wal-mart booster pack? Or something of that nature.
Personally I never had a problem finding Allied Fetchies for my cube, or things like Desolation Angel, etc, etc.
And I don't have any problem finding Goyfs, despite their price and limited availability.
Granted; I generally find these cards from players and not any of the local GS's. But I suppose that's where the Event Decks come in. Or they could do Modern-Game Days where they have promos of said cards given to stores for these events, or they could make another Judge Promo type program where they print a decent number of certain promos and give them to local GS's for giving out or selling to the players.
Given the lack of Reserved List the possibilites for truly supporting this format WHILE also aiding Local GS's is close to being endless.
(And a full art game-day promo of Bob would be a wet-dream, yes?:cool2:)
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But it's an imaginary scenario, since you still need to check no matter where the line is drawn.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
Also the problem with the modern frames idea is what others have said. People could start whipping out wild mongrel's and co. from duel decks or what have you which is more confusing than having the cutoff set at masques or invasion IMO.
Also Torm the reason you find goyfs among players and not in stock at stores is because people generally hold onto their legacy staples or what have you because they're hard to find and if you don't have a playset of goyf or something you'll have to get it back sometime if you plan on playing in the format.
Currently Playing:
Retired
If stoneforge mystic can be printed I see no reason why force and gofy couldn't be reprinted. Force is far more problematic than Goyf as it is one of the best cards ever printed, but it's still feels somewhat fair, as long as something like Big Jace isn't on the table to mitigate the CD. Goyf is still vanilla at the end of the day. I never really saw it as a 50 dollar card. I'd love for Duals to be reprinted as well, but I feel it's just a pipe dream as they are among the most collectible of all cards.
The trouble with reprinting a card while it's value is at like 50$ is that it really makes the market screwy if it's a one-off reprinting like an event deck or a From The Vault.
All of the reprint product sells out instantly, the price fluctuates wildly, and everyone who wants anything but goyf out of that product becomes unhappy. And everyone whose goyfs lost value becomes unhappy.
It's one thing for a standard staple, where the card is still highly available, but for an older card like goyf that many people had to pay an arm and a leg to acquire...
I can only see wizards doing it if it becomes the lesser of two evils between that and it being too big a barrier to entry for the growth of a new format.
Anyhow here's the links
http://www.magic-league.com/tournament/info.php?id=71156&view=decks
http://www.magic-league.com/tournament/info.php?id=71196&view=decks
http://www.magic-league.com/tournament/info.php?id=71188&view=decks
http://www.magic-league.com/tournament/info.php?id=71148&view=decks
http://www.magic-league.com/tournament/info.php?id=71078&view=decks
Zoo seems to be making good appearances. Blood Moon I suspect is doing a lot of work. The Mystical teachings toolbox is also representing along with the stoneforge toolbox. Might want to keep them if you have them.
Zoo if it is to dominate needs to figure out how to beat the eldrazi big decks lifegain from the locus lands. I mean if virtually 2-for-ones as playing the locus lands give them lots of mana and also a lot of life. Some anti lifegain tech is surely needed as they are very slow and could easily be beat if the lifegain can be dealt with.
Insert witty phrase here
The No-Land Miracles deck really caught my eye. Looks like it's fun to play; and could sand-bag an unwary opponent. "Damn, i got land-screwed, guess i'll keep it."
The large number of UW Vial Fish shows that Stoneforge will be a staple in this format; And Yeah, Zoo is looking strong (it virtually only lost non-shock duals in it's transition from Legacy, so that's not too surprising.)
the 10-12 Post Big Green Eldrazi decks look pretty awesome, too.
The thing i'm most excited about though is being able to use my Figures of Destiny, again.
Overall, it's looking rather healthy with the current ban-list.
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Also when do the constructed community cup rounds start?
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/other/06132011e&dcmp=ilc-mtgrss
Cheers
Also this SHADOW reserved list is getting annoying to. Maze of ith, Force of will, etc not being reprinted is a blatant way to let certain cards appreciate in value. They have a secret policy on certain cards. We will NEVER see cards that are on the reserve list back in the people's hands who can afford them.Magic has always been a game of the haves and have nots. Wotc has decided to favor the HAVES.
People hate the standard and Legacy formats because of WOTCs refusal to print more cards and creating mythics. The prices are SO high in alot of these formats, your average player cannot play in them. Caw-blade costs what? 600-700$$$ to build? I have been playing Magic for 15 years and that price is ridiculous. These high prices are all of WOTCs making. Now they want to dodge the real solutions and come up with another crap format, that will just elevate prices of newer cards even more. PRINT MORE CARDS WOTC! Give the people what they want. Stop listening to the secondary market robber barons.
EDH:
Zur, The Enchanter
Modern:
Burn
Legacy:
Cheeri0s
Burn
I mean... imagine FoW in standard... turn one countermagic (counters anything) is not fun... caw blade has been a dominant archetype witout this... imagine if it were legal... the same argument can be made for many of the legacy staples.
As for modern magic... i would have wanted it to be invasion fwd... but its way better than the current extended.
Best regards
fow is actually quite crappy if it's get reprinted in standard. it's 2 for 1 yourself. standard isn't fast like legacy where everything revolves around the first four turns and there are no broken combo decks, so you don't need turn 0 or 1 counter.
it's moderate or a complete garbage in standard. just like when tarmogoyf was in standard, he was mediocre in standard as oppose as in legacy.
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The reason rares are rarely worth much now is because of mythics. When they added mythics they made rares more common.
Without mythics, you have more moderate-value cards but fewer ultra-expensive cards and fewer bulk-value cards.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
So yes... FoW can't be in standar
if i'm an aggro player, i would gladly let u force of will my t1 lacerator or a t3 kalastria highborn. you just 2 for 1 yourself, and the other blue card u pitch can be a jace or a preordain or another counter. that's just lol.
just look at aggro vs. control deck in legacy. force of will is easily one of the worst card against zoo or merfolk. control deck takes them out g2 and g3 since boarding in spot removals are just 100x better against aggros than trying to counter them.
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:symu:::symr:UR Facts:symu::symr:
and i don't know why you bring up koth. by the time aggro can land koth, u already got mana leak or sfm + spell pierce back up, or just take a hit and flashes in batterskull and beat koth.
anyway there is nothing broken about force of will. it's one of the most balance card and keep everything in tact in legacy, so i don't mind they print it in set. thou highly unlikely.
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Standard: Card advantage.
Legacy: Tempo.
What I'm trying to say is that in Legacy, the game is drawn out and is decided on one to two cards played at the right time or sticking around. As for standard, you cycle through cards at ridiculous speeds and you tend to need a lot of fodder for that. Pitching two cards from your hand to counter one card is horrible in standard. The more cards you have at your disposal, the better. In standard, this is the lifeline.