Due to a simple targeted card draw being -1 on Jace. However WotC doesn't always play on the same page and may be trying to adjust a weak aspect of the original Jace so it could be -1 as well. It definitely is not a + arrow border. While neutral (-/+ 0) has never been seen, I don't see Brainstorm being a 0 cost ability.
The only objection I have to this argument of -2 for Brainstorm is that, given unsummon is listed below it, if Brainstorm is -2, unsummon is a minimum of -2 -- and I find that hard to believe.
That is why I favour the +2 -1 -1 -12 set.
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EDH UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
Due to a simple targeted card draw being -1 on Jace. However WotC doesn't always play on the same page and may be trying to adjust a weak aspect of the original Jace so it could be -1 as well. It definitely is not a + arrow border. While neutral (-/+ 0) has never been seen, I don't see Brainstorm being a 0 cost ability.
That would just plain suck, and I dont believe it.
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Garruk's -1 is put a 3/3 beast token into play
Ajani's -1 is to put +1/+1 counters AND vigilence on your guys
Lliana's -2 is vampiric tutor
Ajani V's -2 is Lightning Helix
Brainstorm is not necessararily greater than "draw a card"
Okay...lol...it IS, but its more of a -1.4 ability. Its nowhere near the level of vampiric tutor or lightning helix. It's closer to -1 (and is rightfully along the same lines as garruk's 3/3 beast token)
I think Brainstorm for -1 would be a bit too much to ask. Again, I'm not a designer, they COULD give blue a nice holyday gift after the last season without good cards...
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Alea iacta est
I'm a Spike Vorthos - I love lore and flavor, but only if the cards are competition worthy.
Honestly, I think that last ability MIGHT be a -X ability with X being the number of cards you can remove from the library. That's at least a lot more fair than Exiling the ENTIRE DAMN LIBRARY. It would promote you getting his loyalty fairly high too, but it does seem less efficient than milling 20. On the other hand, it is laser guided more or less....
The words on the last ability box are slightly reassuring me that it will not be Timetwister. For an ultimate, that would be meaningless to work up to. I do pray we find out it's the "Exile all cards, hand becomes new library" ability.
Correction: Star Wars taught us that George Lucas is a horrible, horrible person. And that WotC doesn't like doing licensed products for something they/Hasbro doesn't explicitly own.
I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
On the subject of Brainstorm's loyalty cost as compared to Jace Beleren's draw: bear in mind, it was -1 loyalty on a three mana planeswalker, I think -1 loyalty on a four mana planeswalker is significantly more costly.
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Having seen the abilities now, I must say I'm a tad disappointed. The first ability is okay, but nothing amazing. In standard you'll have to do anything and everything to keep him alive for his ultimate ability. I really don't know if it's even possible without practically all control, and maybe some 1 drops for extra protection. Even then it seems hard to imagine.
Second ability is okay I guess, but it's a weaker version of ponder, because you can't shuffle after. So if it's 3 islands, tough.
Third, pretty bad. Unsummon has 2 uses in control: Unsummon a creature so that you may cancel him when he comes back, or unsummon your own creature if it's targeted by an instant like bolt or terminate. Since it can't be activated instantly, you could only do the first one, and only if the creature doesn't have haste.
So you're pretty much playing for the 4th ability, which I hope is exile all cards in player's library, then shuffle hand into player's library. Still, again unless you're running an amazing control deck, probably with 4 mind controls, this isn't necessarily a game-ender unless you've done your job keeping everything he has off the table, and I'd have to try and think of how it would work in other decks. A blue-white deck may work with safe passage, journey, path, and what not.
If the second ability was a +, I'd say this is a pretty sweet Planeswalker, but as is I can't help but feel gyped a little. Again, here's to hoping monoblue gets some love in the expansion cards itself to supplement this card.
This Jace looks good so far. I honestly think the Brainstorm and Unsummon abilities would both be -1 while the ultimate would be along the lines of -10.
Im also glad one of the locations is in Canada, if I can, I'll go dropby and try to get a few pics.
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Will play Faeries every chance I get
Currently Playing:
Standard: WUB WUBstep Control WUB
Modern: U Faeries U
Legacy: UB Faeries UB
EDH: G Omnath, Locus of Mana G BR Bladewing, the Risen BR UB Oona, Queen of the Fae UB RUG Riku of Two Reflections WUR
unless the abilities are different than speculated or the unsummon is 0 or the brainstorm is 0 then I would much rather have the first jace. I thought that maybe jace would get cooler, maybe better, but unless something like the above happens, it's going to be very dissapointing :/
Having seen the abilities now, I must say I'm a tad disappointed. The first ability is okay, but nothing amazing. In standard you'll have to do anything and everything to keep him alive for his ultimate ability. I really don't know if it's even possible without practically all control, and maybe some 1 drops for extra protection. Even then it seems hard to imagine.
Second ability is okay I guess, but it's a weaker version of ponder, because you can't shuffle after. So if it's 3 islands, tough.
Third, pretty bad. Unsummon has 2 uses in control: Unsummon a creature so that you may cancel him when he comes back, or unsummon your own creature if it's targeted by an instant like bolt or terminate. Since it can't be activated instantly, you could only do the first one, and only if the creature doesn't have haste.
So you're pretty much playing for the 4th ability, which I hope is exile all cards in player's library, then shuffle hand into player's library. Still, again unless you're running an amazing control deck, probably with 4 mind controls, this does very little for mono-blue non-mill, and I'd have to try and think of how it would work in other decks. A blue-white deck may work with safe passage and what not.
If the second ability was a +, I'd say this is a pretty sweet Planeswalker, but as is I can't help but feel gyped a little. Again, here's to hoping monoblue gets some love in the expansion cards itself to supplement this card.
I'll assume you're not being sarcastic for the sake of argument.
the first ability is OK, not great, but gives 2 counters. That and it has sinergy with the second.
the second ability is Brainstorm. I'll have to assume you never used brainstorm. Believe me, it's MUCH better than ponder. You can have THREE new cards and put those islands you had on your hand on top, you see? Then put one of them at the bottom with ability 1 next turn?
Also, drawing cards trigger a lot of abilities in a lot of cards. Think about lorescale coatl, etc. (ok, to be fair - also think about runeflare trap
the 3rd ability kills any token, makes any creature without haste unable to attack you (if you have enough loyalty counters, of course, since we don't know the cost yet). Buying time in control = good.
the 4th... c'mon it WINS the game. the guy even looses his hand and have 7 turns - TOPS - to die without a library.
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I'm a Spike Vorthos - I love lore and flavor, but only if the cards are competition worthy.
Having seen the abilities now, I must say I'm a tad disappointed. The first ability is okay, but nothing amazing. In standard you'll have to do anything and everything to keep him alive for his ultimate ability. I really don't know if it's even possible without practically all control, and maybe some 1 drops for extra protection. Even then it seems hard to imagine.
Second ability is okay I guess, but it's a weaker version of ponder, because you can't shuffle after. So if it's 3 islands, tough.
Third, pretty bad. Unsummon has 2 uses in control: Unsummon a creature so that you may cancel him when he comes back, or unsummon your own creature if it's targeted by an instant like bolt or terminate. Since it can't be activated instantly, you could only do the first one, and only if the creature doesn't have haste.
So you're pretty much playing for the 4th ability, which I hope is exile all cards in player's library, then shuffle hand into player's library. Still, again unless you're running an amazing control deck, probably with 4 mind controls, this does very little for mono-blue non-mill, and I'd have to try and think of how it would work in other decks. A blue-white deck may work with safe passage and what not.
If the second ability was a +, I'd say this is a pretty sweet Planeswalker, but as is I can't help but feel gyped a little. Again, here's to hoping monoblue gets some love in the expansion cards itself to supplement this card.
Brainstorm is "okay"?
Seriously?
We do have fetchlands in Standard now. You can always use them in conjunction with the brainstorm ability and shuffle away those useless Islands. Not to mention the +2 compliments Brainstorm exceptionally well.
Unsummon isn't that bad of an ability either. As a card, it blows. On a PW, it's actually solid I think. You have a repeatable way to bounce problematic critters back to their hand. You can bounce half of a Broodmate Dragon away and only have to deal with the original (hello Sphinxy). Or send a Baneslayer Angel home so you can get through some damage in the air.
And yes it does have some synergy with your own creatures, a la Sphinx of the Lost Truths. Perhaps we'll get some additional CITP effect creatures to make it better. But overall, I don't think it's weak at all.
Being able to send Baneslayer Angels home so I can get through doesn't sound like a bad proposition to me at all.
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I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
Having seen the abilities now, I must say I'm a tad disappointed. The first ability is okay, but nothing amazing. In standard you'll have to do anything and everything to keep him alive for his ultimate ability. I really don't know if it's even possible without practically all control, and maybe some 1 drops for extra protection. Even then it seems hard to imagine.
Second ability is okay I guess, but it's a weaker version of ponder, because you can't shuffle after. So if it's 3 islands, tough.
Third, pretty bad. Unsummon has 2 uses in control: Unsummon a creature so that you may cancel him when he comes back, or unsummon your own creature if it's targeted by an instant like bolt or terminate. Since it can't be activated instantly, you could only do the first one, and only if the creature doesn't have haste.
So you're pretty much playing for the 4th ability, which I hope is exile all cards in player's library, then shuffle hand into player's library. Still, again unless you're running an amazing control deck, probably with 4 mind controls, this isn't necessarily a game-ender unless you've done your job keeping everything he has off the table, and I'd have to try and think of how it would work in other decks. A blue-white deck may work with safe passage, journey, path, and what not.
If the second ability was a +, I'd say this is a pretty sweet Planeswalker, but as is I can't help but feel gyped a little. Again, here's to hoping monoblue gets some love in the expansion cards itself to supplement this card.
Joke post?
First ability - use after the second ability to put junk at the bottom of your library
Second ability - use to draw cards!
Third ability - use when necessary to slow the opponent down
Fourth ability - never going to happen
Plenty of planeswalkers are played without people thinking about their ultimates. Some decks that play Jace are fine just drawing cards.
Most of the time Elspeth is just plopping counters on, Ajani is not making a token, etc.
You don't look at a planeswalker and say 'ehh too hard to get to ultimate, it sucks'.
Brainstorm > Ponder. You are drawing three cards. You dig three deep either way, but with Jace, if you draw into garbage, you can push through it faster with the first ability.
This card's least useful ability is the last one, no matter what it does.
It is all about the first three.
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I like the abilities a lot. I guess now its just a matter of his loyalty counters requirement for the rest of those 3 abilities. I'm pretty sure that the WotC made it sure that you can play jace's final ability in turn 2 after playing him, just like 'most' of the other planeswalker.
One thing that actually annoys me is his starting loyalty counter. 3?? I'm sure Jace will ditch you as soon as he sees a lightning bolt in his face when he comes into play.
On the other irrelevant note, Is the WotC going to keep doing the slow spoiler for every upcoming set? I guess this time is much less painful than Sorin Markov's spoiler.
EDIT: WOW I guess I was completely wrong about the ultimate. It takes 5 TURNS after playing Jace to play his ultimate. 5 TURNS.
He might as well as be a planeswalker with 3 awesome abilities.
I'd like to point out that Security Detail and Angelic Blessing are also considered weak cards. Yet, repeatable and together, they are worth $30+. There is no reason whatsoever to think repeatable Opt, Brainstorm, Unsummon, and You Win the Game will make a bad planeswalker.
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The text of the card would not indicate that it would be a weaker ponder, rather it would be similar to the effect of brainstorm. I feel that this Jace will see play in constructed because of several of his abilites. First, he allows you to deal with threats that your opponent might have on top of their library, or, even better if they want to be drawing land, you can siphon that down to the bottom, and that is only his plus two ability. Moving on, we have his second ability, which gives for continual draw. Following that we hve his third ability. It could actually be return two target creatures to their owners hands, it would make feel more confident about it being a minus ability. As for the final ability, it would serve as a great finisher in jacerator. I feel that any blue control deck is going to play this card. Now worldwake just needs a counterspell that is horrible.
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Pauper Cube
I cube, I play EDH, and I can't afford Legacy. The other formats can suck it.
The only objection I have to this argument of -2 for Brainstorm is that, given unsummon is listed below it, if Brainstorm is -2, unsummon is a minimum of -2 -- and I find that hard to believe.
That is why I favour the +2 -1 -1 -12 set.
UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls
RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty
UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
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Garruk's -1 is put a 3/3 beast token into play
Ajani's -1 is to put +1/+1 counters AND vigilence on your guys
Lliana's -2 is vampiric tutor
Ajani V's -2 is Lightning Helix
Brainstorm is not necessararily greater than "draw a card"
Okay...lol...it IS, but its more of a -1.4 ability. Its nowhere near the level of vampiric tutor or lightning helix. It's closer to -1 (and is rightfully along the same lines as garruk's 3/3 beast token)
+2
-1
-2
-7
for the abilities. So the third one is 'put' instead of 'return'? Isn't that new? (Return doesn't fit, I think.)
I'm a Spike Vorthos - I love lore and flavor, but only if the cards are competition worthy.
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Unsummon being -2 makes zero sense to me too. -2 is for super powerful abilities like lightning helix.
Use the quote BUTTON next time.
Do not copy/paste posts.
We have a button for a reason.
-7 to exile a library.... seriously?
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Second ability is okay I guess, but it's a weaker version of ponder, because you can't shuffle after. So if it's 3 islands, tough.
Third, pretty bad. Unsummon has 2 uses in control: Unsummon a creature so that you may cancel him when he comes back, or unsummon your own creature if it's targeted by an instant like bolt or terminate. Since it can't be activated instantly, you could only do the first one, and only if the creature doesn't have haste.
So you're pretty much playing for the 4th ability, which I hope is exile all cards in player's library, then shuffle hand into player's library. Still, again unless you're running an amazing control deck, probably with 4 mind controls, this isn't necessarily a game-ender unless you've done your job keeping everything he has off the table, and I'd have to try and think of how it would work in other decks. A blue-white deck may work with safe passage, journey, path, and what not.
If the second ability was a +, I'd say this is a pretty sweet Planeswalker, but as is I can't help but feel gyped a little. Again, here's to hoping monoblue gets some love in the expansion cards itself to supplement this card.
haha
and hope its worth it
this jace is crazy!!
Which do you think is better?
I already have my opinion, what's yours?
Im also glad one of the locations is in Canada, if I can, I'll go dropby and try to get a few pics.
Currently Playing:
Standard:
WUB WUBstep Control WUB
Modern:
U Faeries U
Legacy:
UB Faeries UB
EDH:
G Omnath, Locus of Mana G
BR Bladewing, the Risen BR
UB Oona, Queen of the Fae UB
RUG Riku of Two Reflections WUR
I'll assume you're not being sarcastic for the sake of argument.
the first ability is OK, not great, but gives 2 counters. That and it has sinergy with the second.
the second ability is Brainstorm. I'll have to assume you never used brainstorm. Believe me, it's MUCH better than ponder. You can have THREE new cards and put those islands you had on your hand on top, you see? Then put one of them at the bottom with ability 1 next turn?
Also, drawing cards trigger a lot of abilities in a lot of cards. Think about lorescale coatl, etc. (ok, to be fair - also think about runeflare trap
the 3rd ability kills any token, makes any creature without haste unable to attack you (if you have enough loyalty counters, of course, since we don't know the cost yet). Buying time in control = good.
the 4th... c'mon it WINS the game. the guy even looses his hand and have 7 turns - TOPS - to die without a library.
I'm a Spike Vorthos - I love lore and flavor, but only if the cards are competition worthy.
Brainstorm is "okay"?
Seriously?
We do have fetchlands in Standard now. You can always use them in conjunction with the brainstorm ability and shuffle away those useless Islands. Not to mention the +2 compliments Brainstorm exceptionally well.
Unsummon isn't that bad of an ability either. As a card, it blows. On a PW, it's actually solid I think. You have a repeatable way to bounce problematic critters back to their hand. You can bounce half of a Broodmate Dragon away and only have to deal with the original (hello Sphinxy). Or send a Baneslayer Angel home so you can get through some damage in the air.
And yes it does have some synergy with your own creatures, a la Sphinx of the Lost Truths. Perhaps we'll get some additional CITP effect creatures to make it better. But overall, I don't think it's weak at all.
Being able to send Baneslayer Angels home so I can get through doesn't sound like a bad proposition to me at all.
UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls
RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty
UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
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Joke post?
First ability - use after the second ability to put junk at the bottom of your library
Second ability - use to draw cards!
Third ability - use when necessary to slow the opponent down
Fourth ability - never going to happen
Plenty of planeswalkers are played without people thinking about their ultimates. Some decks that play Jace are fine just drawing cards.
Most of the time Elspeth is just plopping counters on, Ajani is not making a token, etc.
You don't look at a planeswalker and say 'ehh too hard to get to ultimate, it sucks'.
Brainstorm > Ponder. You are drawing three cards. You dig three deep either way, but with Jace, if you draw into garbage, you can push through it faster with the first ability.
This card's least useful ability is the last one, no matter what it does.
It is all about the first three.
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One thing that actually annoys me is his starting loyalty counter. 3?? I'm sure Jace will ditch you as soon as he sees a lightning bolt in his face when he comes into play.
On the other irrelevant note, Is the WotC going to keep doing the slow spoiler for every upcoming set? I guess this time is much less painful than Sorin Markov's spoiler.
EDIT: WOW I guess I was completely wrong about the ultimate. It takes 5 TURNS after playing Jace to play his ultimate. 5 TURNS.
He might as well as be a planeswalker with 3 awesome abilities.
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