Firstly, wow, and referance to my sig about MaRo. Secondly, like many have stated, its nice to have 4 wrath effects in a known deck archetype but it usually isn't needed for it. Living End decks now? Hooray... I guess. As a blue mage all I can say is /shrug. Nice to have black as an ally amirite? (along with red but you know how it goes)
Obligitory with addin: "Agro, is nearly dead, if not dead already."
[card=Dismal Failure]"Two magi could trade spells all day and never crown a victor.
The real battle is not one of power but of will.
If your confidence breaks, so too shall you." —Venser[/card]
Whoa! I didn't see that happening. I wonder if this means Wrath is out of 10th? I've always felt mass creature kill should be black, but we all know 4 mana is very cheap for such an effect. You pay 3 mana to kill one creature... or 4 to kill them all? I figured they might planeshift a white removal to black, but didn't think they'd do Wrath. Something reasonable like Final Judgment.
The price of this card is going to be sick. It's only available in one pack every box or two, depending on how many planeshifted rares there end up being, and exacly how the "one rare or uncommon per pack" distribution turns out. I don't think it'll be available for less than $20 a card at any point. Possible as high as $30 each, I imagine. Almost every player needs 4 (or more) of this. This card goes in just about every black deck in pretty much every format. And availability will be very low.
Solace nailed it as well. The ONLY reason White was ever the mass removal color is because of ***. They pulled Geddon for power reasons, not flavor. People need to realize that balance and/or symmetry effects are NOT the same as mass removal effects. Look at Barter in Blood. That is a symmetry effect, not mass removal. Each person sacs 2 creatures. You each do the same thing. *** scales it to the point of EVERYTHING. Why is that White again? Breaking the symmetry is a STRATEGY that we as players employ, you aways try to break the symmetry by having less creatures or more efficient creatures. White has never been about "I get this, you don't" it's either NO one gets it or you pay more (taxing). Black, however, is allowed to get what it wants for a PRICE. I want to kill all your creatures. The price? I have to kill all mine too. Black. Not White. Wrathing then laying down a bunch of 1/1's and 2/2's isn't White. White doesn't say "me me me, you get nothing!". That sounds a little SELFISH wouldn't you say? Gee, what color is that?
I'm fine with White saying NO for many things but from a flavor point, for creatures it does NOT make sense in a color about community, creatures and most importantly, WEENIES. And that doesn't take into account power reasons.
Also, each color has ways around each other's strengths and hosers. Traditionally, Black killed something, Green regen'd. Black says no regen, Green says can't target. Check and balances.
Black kills something, White says prevent ProB (can't target). Black says -x/-x, White says still can't target. Black has SOMETIMES gotten a sweeper around Protection, like Mutilate and Forced March but way overcosted to overcome the Protection of White. Damnation gives Black ONE way around Protection, at the cost of your own creatures. Totally Black. And for those about to go off on Black's edict effect, save your breath. Count the number of those cards vs. the number of counters White has to them and then realize it's a little in favor of White (think 'target player').
White has traditionaly had MANY answers to Black's strengths, while Black has not felt any reciprocation (enchantments anyone?). Black has had it's strength shored up vs. Green, which has only been due to Green's lack of power, which in turn has been shored up considerably over the past two years. Checks and balances. Where's the reciprocation for White? Power Creep, see the above.
Black Wrath>White Wrath. Love it. The new Standard.
This completely turns the game on its $#$#%#& head. That card will be 20 bucks and in demand in every format, bar none. Black is making out like a bandit with timewalk AND wrath!?!?! I hope you have your black dual lands saved up kiddies, because there's nothing else but b/x from now on.
This completely turns the game on its $#$#%#& head. That card will be 20 bucks and in demand in every format, bar none. Black is making out like a bandit with timewalk AND wrath!?!?! I hope you have your black dual lands saved up kiddies, because there's nothing else but b/x from now on.
I don't think it will be played in every format.
*** doesn't see play in Vintage and I really doubt this will see play in Vintage. *** barely sees play in Legacy because Control isn't able to deal with Goblins & Reset/High Tide. Black is barely played in Legacy. There is a chance this will open the door to a new deck in Legacy. Being able to Wrath/Damnnation with two land a Dark Ritual seems pretty cool.
Ehh I beg to differ Kell. You are too quick to make general statements like that until PC has been completely unfolded. :symu:/x without black still looks promising in spite of this card and the time walk. Of course this is merely subjective since I am a blue mage and not a black one.
[card=Dismal Failure]"Two magi could trade spells all day and never crown a victor.
The real battle is not one of power but of will.
If your confidence breaks, so too shall you." —Venser[/card]
Standard... Who knows. I think Disenchant and Lightning Helix is the only reason to play white in control anymore.
Extended - Red Rock can play this with one in the board with Burning Wish and Tog could get a boost.
Legacy & Vintage - no effect. Wrath is barely played anyways in these formats at least in competitive decks.
Block - This will be the absolute nutz in block. With Tendrils of Corruption, Smallpox, Stronghold Overseer, and other very solid cards Damnnation will be the format (which is looking like an aggro format) defining card. $20 a pop. Easily.
B/W won't be good. It just allows decks to play a more interesting reanimator or such. It's gonna be BU or BUX if anything. I mean, cmon, what more creature removal does B/W control need that white doesn't already have? I do like the rock with this and B/U tron ideas with it though.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Glok loved storms! He'd sit an' watch an' laugh through the whole thing. I miss him." -Squee, goblin cabin hand
The thing I am seeing here is a entrance for power creep. If you give control boosted cards, then you must give aggro more powerful cards to compensate. We've already seen just a glimpse of this with cards such as the white Blastoderm. I wouldn't go calling aggro dead just yet......
In any case, this is certainly a solid card, while not the end-all-be-all that some people are making it out to be. It will be played, and many decks will have 5+ Wraths between maindeck and sideboard.
I've been hoping for something like this for a while, I'm tired of having to fit white into control decks to play Wrath screwing up the mana in the process.
The thing I am seeing here is a entrance for power creep. If you give control boosted cards, then you must give aggro more powerful cards to compensate. We've already seen just a glimpse of this with cards such as the white Blastoderm. I wouldn't go calling aggro dead just yet......
Amen, or say this is going to even warp the meta. First, only what? 11 cards are spoiled? out of 165? We dont know what they have.
Im hoping the power creep is only for this set, I can see it, and Can even accept it. I just hope it slowly creeps down again.
If anyone knows why G0-DRAW was banned I would love it if they would PM me. That guy was pure entertainment 100% of the time. Plus he never publicly responded to his Contraptions "Proof" that never panned out.
Watching the page of wizards today was just like, I dunno, watching Carmen Electra pull of her top right in front of you...slowly.....
I'm gonna go to sleep and watch the animation in my head, once and again.
And I thought standard was complicated until time spiral
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I know the perfect guy for the third faction:
"When you show up to the Mirrodin Besieged Prerelease, you'll be asked to choose a faction: Mirran, Phyrexian, or Jaded A-Hole" Aaron Forsythe, on Twitter
Everything changes, nothing remains without a change - Buddha
I still disagree strongly that Wrath should be a black effect. Black doesn't care about killing all creatures, it cares about killing creatures that don't have the 'black mindset'. That's why so much black removal can only target non-black creatures.
White & black are the two strongest direct creature removal colors(with red being the strongest indirect through burn). The split is:
White:
pacifism effects
combat based removal(Condemn, Reciprocate, etc.)
'destroy all creatures' effects(Wrath effects)
Black:
-X/-X effects(Mutilate, Sudden Death, etc.)
'life-draining'
'destroy/scare the non-believer' effects(Terror, Dark Banishing, etc.)
Now, the thing to keep in mind is that black doesn't mind sacrificing it's own creatures to do this, as long as they are serving a purpose, beyond just dieing. Decree of Pain is a great example. Yes it kills everything which is slightly off color, but that is not the real flavor of the card. The real flavor is converting creatures into other resources, which is very, very black(do I even need to bother listing examples?). Mutilate is not a 'destroy all creatures' card, it is an 'all creatures get -X/-X card' which is a black effect, not a white one. Yes, most of the time Mutilate will kill everything, but not always and that's the key difference.
Ignoring the flavor, historically it should still be obvious that 'destroy all creatures' effects are 100% white:
And there are others. Would these be white if Wrath of God wasn't around? That's a moot point. It's like asking "Would counters be blue without Counterspell in alpha?" or "What if disenchant was red in alpha?".
Black wrath? Gosh, this is the most awesome card i've seen so far. It's more exciting than first seeing kokusho, or even avatar of woe. I'm a black man at heart, dawg.
Definitely Lesurgo. Power creep is an issue but the recent CMC 4 and 3 creatures of late have been pretty good...dare I say because of White having access to pinpoint removal, mass removal, lifegain (getting much better as of late), weenies, extra control AND fatties? Which one of those DOESN'T make sense in White?
No wonder R, R/G, U/G got such a kick in the pants. It was needed when one color has such wonderful access.
I buy Black getting around SSS's untargetability. White? Not so much. I mean, U/G is the ally colors for crying out loud.
I still disagree strongly that Wrath should be a black effect. Black doesn't care about killing all creatures, it cares about killing creatures that don't have the 'black mindset'. That's why so much black removal can only target non-black creatures.
White & black are the two strongest direct creature removal colors(with red being the strongest indirect through burn). The split is:
White:
pacifism effects
combat based removal(Condemn, Reciprocate, etc.)
'destroy all creatures' effects(Wrath effects)
Black:
-X/-X effects(Mutilate, Sudden Death, etc.)
'life-draining'
'destroy/scare the non-believer' effects(Terror, Dark Banishing, etc.)
Now, the thing to keep in mind is that black doesn't mind sacrificing it's own creatures to do this, as long as they are serving a purpose, beyond just dieing. Decree of Pain is a great example. Yes it kills everything which is slightly off color, but that is not the real flavor of the card. The real flavor is converting creatures into other resources, which is very, very black(do I even need to bother listing examples?). Mutilate is not a 'destroy all creatures' card, it is an 'all creatures get -X/-X card' which is a black effect, not a white one. Yes, most of the time Mutilate will kill everything, but not always and that's the key difference.
Ignoring the flavor, historically it should still be obvious that 'destroy all creatures' effects are 100% white:
And there are others. Would these be white if Wrath of God wasn't around? That's a moot point. It's like asking "Would counters be blue without Counterspell in alpha?" or "What if disenchant was red in alpha?".
Its like bashing your head against a wall, I think most these people got thier decks handed to them in shreds by a deck packing *** and they have been scarred for life.
I just emailed MaRo, you know he says he reads ALL his email, so I asked him if he could finally clear something up for me and a certain board I think he knows about.
Heres to hopeing that in a couple weeks I can post up here a thread to get stickied saying, dont ever speculate about *** being removed again.
If anyone knows why G0-DRAW was banned I would love it if they would PM me. That guy was pure entertainment 100% of the time. Plus he never publicly responded to his Contraptions "Proof" that never panned out.
1) These are not as rare as your average rare. You get 1 rare in each booster out of 63 or so in a normal small set. These will be coming at a rate of 1 in every 45. That will lower the price substantially.
2) It is in flavor, but White has and will again be the foremost color for mass removal. White is #1, Black is #2. Anyone saying otherwise hasn't actually thought about it. White gets sweepers WAY more often. 1 in TS, 1 in Coldsnap, 1 in Rav Block (not counting Culling Sun), at least 1 in Kamiblock that comes to mind. Black, on the other hand, gets...Hideous Laughter in the same time frame.
3) The only reason Wizards would have designed this spell is to phase out ***. First of all, anyone who thinks about it for even a second has got to realize that the odds of Wizards allowing a format-defining 8 4cc full-blown sweepers in Standard for TWO WHOLE YEARS are so low as to be nonexistant. This'll be a 4-month anomaly, and then we'll go back to having a single 4cc sweeper, and it'll be where it belongs: in the Expert-level sets.
Second of all, we've seen Wizards do this already with Tenth, when they printed Birds of Paradise in Rav. Both cards have commonly and publicly been decried as overpowered as a staple in Magic. Wizards put Birds in Rav as a move that is now commonly recognized as a move to phase them out of the Core Set, and this is no different.
10th Edition will have something relatively harmless in it, like Final Judgment, or, one can hope, Cataclysm. Then, next year, we'll finally see a 5cc sweeper spell in white that doesn't completely cut off design space that will be designed for the Core Set, and Magic will proceed from there.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
I doubt it will happen, but I sincerely hope this replaces Wrath in the core sets.
One thing that makes me happy to see a card like this is the fact that they will make the aggro cards better, so that they offset each other. This card will affect several areas of the format, and I can't wait to see exactly how it does so.
Tis, coupled with some of the other leaked Black cards, will make Black a force in its own right. THis is a long time coming, in my book.
I doubt it will happen, but I sincerely hope this replaces Wrath in the core sets.
Gah!
Come on, people! Think for a minute. Wizards has said that they think that Wrath is too restrictive. We know that Wizards refuses to print 5-mana white sweepers because they'd be overpowered alongside Wrath. Why on EARTH would Wizards consider replacing an overpowered staple card with an equally overpowered staple card in a color that needs it less (Wizards having said that their list of things that black does by the color pie being longer than White's)?
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Obligitory with addin: "Agro, is nearly dead, if not dead already."
:symr::symu: Reality Bites
:symr::symu: Delver Cyclops
:symr::symu: Niv Control EDH
:symg::symw: Sigarda EDH
The real battle is not one of power but of will.
If your confidence breaks, so too shall you."
—Venser[/card]
Counter, counter, counter, Persecute, Damn, draw, draw, counter, Damn, draw, win.
Yeah, I think I could have fun doing that.
Record: 3-2
Simpsons Mafia (Newbie) - Vanilla Mafia - Win
The Fiasco Corporation - Town Reporter - Loss
Doomsday Mafia - Mafia Roleblocker - Win
Battle Royale Mafia - Serial Daykiller - Loss
Danger City Mafia - Vanilla Town - Win
The price of this card is going to be sick. It's only available in one pack every box or two, depending on how many planeshifted rares there end up being, and exacly how the "one rare or uncommon per pack" distribution turns out. I don't think it'll be available for less than $20 a card at any point. Possible as high as $30 each, I imagine. Almost every player needs 4 (or more) of this. This card goes in just about every black deck in pretty much every format. And availability will be very low.
.
Zoo is dead.... but Zoo isn't the only aggro build.
Yeah. I need to make some more money now. These are going to be important for the Post Planar JSS Events.
I'm fine with White saying NO for many things but from a flavor point, for creatures it does NOT make sense in a color about community, creatures and most importantly, WEENIES. And that doesn't take into account power reasons.
Also, each color has ways around each other's strengths and hosers. Traditionally, Black killed something, Green regen'd. Black says no regen, Green says can't target. Check and balances.
Black kills something, White says prevent ProB (can't target). Black says -x/-x, White says still can't target. Black has SOMETIMES gotten a sweeper around Protection, like Mutilate and Forced March but way overcosted to overcome the Protection of White. Damnation gives Black ONE way around Protection, at the cost of your own creatures. Totally Black. And for those about to go off on Black's edict effect, save your breath. Count the number of those cards vs. the number of counters White has to them and then realize it's a little in favor of White (think 'target player').
White has traditionaly had MANY answers to Black's strengths, while Black has not felt any reciprocation (enchantments anyone?). Black has had it's strength shored up vs. Green, which has only been due to Green's lack of power, which in turn has been shored up considerably over the past two years. Checks and balances. Where's the reciprocation for White? Power Creep, see the above.
Black Wrath>White Wrath. Love it. The new Standard.
Or unholy as it may be.
This completely turns the game on its $#$#%#& head. That card will be 20 bucks and in demand in every format, bar none. Black is making out like a bandit with timewalk AND wrath!?!?! I hope you have your black dual lands saved up kiddies, because there's nothing else but b/x from now on.
apart from that the art is very cool....
Thanks to Ye Olde Sig and Avatar Shoppe and specially a_passer_bye for the cool avy!
and thanks also to R&Doom for the awsome Sig
Don't you miss this guy's comics! he's great! http://www.ugmadness.net/
50 posts!
100 posts!
22ND PLACE ON THE MTGS STD. TOURNEY 2007
Standard
WRBoros Deck Wins
RUDragonstorm Combo
GWGlare
Extended
WGHaterator
RBDestroy Land
Casual
GBThallid Season
I don't think it will be played in every format.
*** doesn't see play in Vintage and I really doubt this will see play in Vintage. *** barely sees play in Legacy because Control isn't able to deal with Goblins & Reset/High Tide. Black is barely played in Legacy. There is a chance this will open the door to a new deck in Legacy. Being able to Wrath/Damnnation with two land a Dark Ritual seems pretty cool.
:symr::symu: Reality Bites
:symr::symu: Delver Cyclops
:symr::symu: Niv Control EDH
:symg::symw: Sigarda EDH
The real battle is not one of power but of will.
If your confidence breaks, so too shall you."
—Venser[/card]
Decks that benefit -
Standard... Who knows. I think Disenchant and Lightning Helix is the only reason to play white in control anymore.
Extended - Red Rock can play this with one in the board with Burning Wish and Tog could get a boost.
Legacy & Vintage - no effect. Wrath is barely played anyways in these formats at least in competitive decks.
Block - This will be the absolute nutz in block. With Tendrils of Corruption, Smallpox, Stronghold Overseer, and other very solid cards Damnnation will be the format (which is looking like an aggro format) defining card. $20 a pop. Easily.
This is gonna make a B/W Haakon, knight deck rediculous.
I hear.
I touch.
I speak.
Do you?
"Glok loved storms! He'd sit an' watch an' laugh through the whole thing. I miss him."
-Squee, goblin cabin hand
In any case, this is certainly a solid card, while not the end-all-be-all that some people are making it out to be. It will be played, and many decks will have 5+ Wraths between maindeck and sideboard.
I've been hoping for something like this for a while, I'm tired of having to fit white into control decks to play Wrath screwing up the mana in the process.
Amen, or say this is going to even warp the meta. First, only what? 11 cards are spoiled? out of 165? We dont know what they have.
Im hoping the power creep is only for this set, I can see it, and Can even accept it. I just hope it slowly creeps down again.
QFT!
My Extendo Sig! Because I want to be Cool!!
If anyone knows why G0-DRAW was banned I would love it if they would PM me. That guy was pure entertainment 100% of the time. Plus he never publicly responded to his Contraptions "Proof" that never panned out.
I'm gonna go to sleep and watch the animation in my head, once and again.
And I thought standard was complicated until time spiral
"When you show up to the Mirrodin Besieged Prerelease, you'll be asked to choose a faction: Mirran, Phyrexian, or Jaded A-Hole" Aaron Forsythe, on Twitter
Everything changes, nothing remains without a change - Buddha
Magic Rules Advisor
White & black are the two strongest direct creature removal colors(with red being the strongest indirect through burn). The split is:
White:
pacifism effects
combat based removal(Condemn, Reciprocate, etc.)
'destroy all creatures' effects(Wrath effects)
Black:
-X/-X effects(Mutilate, Sudden Death, etc.)
'life-draining'
'destroy/scare the non-believer' effects(Terror, Dark Banishing, etc.)
Now, the thing to keep in mind is that black doesn't mind sacrificing it's own creatures to do this, as long as they are serving a purpose, beyond just dieing. Decree of Pain is a great example. Yes it kills everything which is slightly off color, but that is not the real flavor of the card. The real flavor is converting creatures into other resources, which is very, very black(do I even need to bother listing examples?). Mutilate is not a 'destroy all creatures' card, it is an 'all creatures get -X/-X card' which is a black effect, not a white one. Yes, most of the time Mutilate will kill everything, but not always and that's the key difference.
Ignoring the flavor, historically it should still be obvious that 'destroy all creatures' effects are 100% white:
Rout
Hour of Reckoning
Final Judgement
Akroma's Vengeance
Winds of Rath
And there are others. Would these be white if Wrath of God wasn't around? That's a moot point. It's like asking "Would counters be blue without Counterspell in alpha?" or "What if disenchant was red in alpha?".
Banner by Mr. Stuff
My Trades
No wonder R, R/G, U/G got such a kick in the pants. It was needed when one color has such wonderful access.
I buy Black getting around SSS's untargetability. White? Not so much. I mean, U/G is the ally colors for crying out loud.
Its like bashing your head against a wall, I think most these people got thier decks handed to them in shreds by a deck packing *** and they have been scarred for life.
I just emailed MaRo, you know he says he reads ALL his email, so I asked him if he could finally clear something up for me and a certain board I think he knows about.
Heres to hopeing that in a couple weeks I can post up here a thread to get stickied saying, dont ever speculate about *** being removed again.
I can dream.
QFT!
My Extendo Sig! Because I want to be Cool!!
If anyone knows why G0-DRAW was banned I would love it if they would PM me. That guy was pure entertainment 100% of the time. Plus he never publicly responded to his Contraptions "Proof" that never panned out.
2) It is in flavor, but White has and will again be the foremost color for mass removal. White is #1, Black is #2. Anyone saying otherwise hasn't actually thought about it. White gets sweepers WAY more often. 1 in TS, 1 in Coldsnap, 1 in Rav Block (not counting Culling Sun), at least 1 in Kamiblock that comes to mind. Black, on the other hand, gets...Hideous Laughter in the same time frame.
3) The only reason Wizards would have designed this spell is to phase out ***. First of all, anyone who thinks about it for even a second has got to realize that the odds of Wizards allowing a format-defining 8 4cc full-blown sweepers in Standard for TWO WHOLE YEARS are so low as to be nonexistant. This'll be a 4-month anomaly, and then we'll go back to having a single 4cc sweeper, and it'll be where it belongs: in the Expert-level sets.
Second of all, we've seen Wizards do this already with Tenth, when they printed Birds of Paradise in Rav. Both cards have commonly and publicly been decried as overpowered as a staple in Magic. Wizards put Birds in Rav as a move that is now commonly recognized as a move to phase them out of the Core Set, and this is no different.
10th Edition will have something relatively harmless in it, like Final Judgment, or, one can hope, Cataclysm. Then, next year, we'll finally see a 5cc sweeper spell in white that doesn't completely cut off design space that will be designed for the Core Set, and Magic will proceed from there.
Mafia MVP BM Mafia
Mafia MVP Matrix Mafia
One thing that makes me happy to see a card like this is the fact that they will make the aggro cards better, so that they offset each other. This card will affect several areas of the format, and I can't wait to see exactly how it does so.
Tis, coupled with some of the other leaked Black cards, will make Black a force in its own right. THis is a long time coming, in my book.
Gah!
Come on, people! Think for a minute. Wizards has said that they think that Wrath is too restrictive. We know that Wizards refuses to print 5-mana white sweepers because they'd be overpowered alongside Wrath. Why on EARTH would Wizards consider replacing an overpowered staple card with an equally overpowered staple card in a color that needs it less (Wizards having said that their list of things that black does by the color pie being longer than White's)?
Mafia MVP BM Mafia
Mafia MVP Matrix Mafia