Good cards tend to be more expensive. Good cards that don't get reprinted, even more.
If a new player loves the wall in the WUR deck and wants to go full "don't touch me" now he has to spend $10+ buying Propaganda instead of the $4 he'd have to spend if they had put the card that does the same but they haven't been reprinting constantly instead.
I don't want to get rich buying precons, but I appreciate comodity a lot and they're not giving it to us. Signets don't cost much more than Lockets, why not give us Signets to begin with and not make players have to pay shipping to get a negligible cost increase but considerable power boost in their preconstructed deck? There's also a lot of cards that aren't very expensive but are 15+ years old and increasingly harder to get in good condition, did it really cost them so much to not ignore Onslaught block and fill the Morph deck with cards from the most opened block in history that are crawling out of every LGS' bulk bin?
Precons should be about comfort and accessibility, make it easier for people to get into the game. Getting the Morph deck and being recommended to drop a bunch of the cards in your box for inexpensive cards nobody carries in their binders and most stores that opened during the early 2010's boom have never had in stock is not a welcoming experience.
Personally I think magic is more fun when it’s a long journey toward perfection. Give someone a precon that’s already halfway optimised and there’s less to learn. I played for years with terrible decks until I learned and improved. It was a lot of fun gradually improving over time, instead of just being handed it easily.
Also more diversity is more fun imo. Sure lockets are usually worse but sometimes not. New Players should try lots of cards and see what they prefer imo, instead of falling into well-worn staples before they even know what they’re doing.
Also not super relevant but medallions are god-awful in 3c. It would really detract from playing well out of the box.
If you look through this thread, you’ll see a post of mine where Gavin Verhey, Wizards employee, acknowledges shortcoming in last years decks. Meaning, while not terrible, they weren’t great and could be improved upon. Quality of newly created cards is always debatable, cards that work for some, don’t work for all. There is NO REASON a deck can have good reprints along with the new cards. Gavin ADMITS IT. He also says they’re listening to players complaints and said they’d address it. 50% in, his words are untrue.
As for the list of cards I used, it’s not my personal want list. With the exception of the BAttlebond duals and the Medallions, the cards I listed WERE THE MOST POPULAR CARDS BY TYPE IN THE EDH FORMAT, in terms of their appearance in the quantities of decks on EDHREC. So save your pithy, condescending attitude and stop acting like requesting one or two $7 to $12 cards (most on that list are sub-$10) per deck and perhaps one or two of the $20 cards total across all four decks is an unreasonable request. They are the MOST PLAYED CARDS IN THE FORMAT. Yes, they may have been printed in the past, but some, like Propaganda haven’t been seen in 3 years, or 4 years since Arena. And just stop pretending like adding one or two of each of those cards per deck, which we haven’t seen in years is “reprinting the same decks as previous years”. Such a lame argument. Two cards per deck we haven’t seen in years is not the same deck. And BTW, Sun Titan says hello (for the third time).
So, to sum up:
-person that oversees the decks acknowledges the reprints have been lacking in the last years Commander product.
-that person said they’d improve on that, and 50% of the way through, that’s untrue.
-the cards on my list are among THE MOST PLAYED IN THE FORMAT (per the decks submitted to EDHREC) and are not too highly priced so as to deliver an unreasonable EV. I carefully avoided financially unreasonable cards.
-a good number of those cards on that list have seen an appearance in the Commander decks before.
So PLEASE, enlighten me as to why I’m being unreasonable, and try to do it where YOU’RE not the one looking foolish.
Ah yes, the “I’ll type in caps to make my POINT SOUND BETTER” approach.
How about this. How do those cards play into the deck themes, and how would you balance them?
And for HOW YOU ARE BEING UNREASONABLE? Well, for starters, I said most of those reprints you want were already printed in Commander products. So, no for that. Next, you suggested cards that foster games that aren’t incredibly enjoyable, so no to that too. Then you ask for cards that exist in other supplemental product, like Battlebond, so why share those cards with a product that’s basically the same thing? So no to that as well.
There, happy? No? Didn’t think so. And nobody cares...
And stop barking about wanting this to play with noobs, everyone benefits from having better cards
I don’t think that’s the point. These decks have a predetermined theme and are expected to play well against each other. Slamming reprints, specifically powerful ones like THAT ONE GUY ASKED FOR, into the decks creates gameplay issues out of the box.
So, the cards need to fit the theme and play well against each other. Unfortunately, that lops off quite a few cards. But it is to be expected.
I never “asked for” “Slamming reprints, specifically powerful ones”. Resorting to reductio ad absurdum OR attempting to put words in my mouth just demonstrates you have no argument. What I DID say was “1-2 cards of the $7 to $12 variety” per deck (so minimum 4, maximum 8), and “1-2 cards total across all four decks of the ~$20 variety”. So that’s a total of minimum 5 cards (4/1) or a maximum 10 cards (8/2) in total. That’s between 1.25 and 2.5 cards per deck, solely for the purpose of providing easy, affordable access to cards that are staples in the format. If 1.25 to 2.5 cards to you is “slamming” them into a deck in your mind, most would disagree with you.
As for gameplay balance, do you really think Wizards can’t design decks to accommodate the strength of 2 quality reprints per deck? LOL, whatever. Likewise, your argument is weak when you cherrypick certain cards in my list (which BTW was not meant to be comprehensive, but I thought nearly 40 examples was enough to make my point), such as the tutors and the feelbads, when cards like Chromatic Lantern, Thought Vessel, and Expedition Map were also valid suggestions and would serve my point and serve their purpose just as well.
This is just to say (since I'm pretty sure they won't) they should reprint Tortured Existence in the madness deck. That card is great and has literally never been reprinted for some reason.
I'll probably receive a lot of hate for this, but I had a look over some of the decklists for the Commander product as far back as the original. I'll say it the overall value doesn't seem that different.
The only real outliers are the Atraxa deck and the vampire deck with Teferi's Protection.
And the prices on those are like all high Magic prices, based on hindsight.
I'll probably receive a lot of hate for this, but I had a look over some of the decklists for the Commander product as far back as the original. I'll say it the overall value doesn't seem that different.
The only real outliers are the Atraxa deck and the vampire deck with Teferi's Protection.
And the prices on those are like all high Magic prices, based on hindsight.
The originals were very high value, one came with flusterstorm, mimeoplasm was loaded with value, kaalia is super expensive etc
Cyclonic rift is a 20$ card and came in the teferi deck, teferi is also a 30$ card.
The only set of commander decks I kind of regret purchasing is the most recent one, and this set is not looking much better.
I'll probably receive a lot of hate for this, but I had a look over some of the decklists for the Commander product as far back as the original. I'll say it the overall value doesn't seem that different.
The only real outliers are the Atraxa deck and the vampire deck with Teferi's Protection.
And the prices on those are like all high Magic prices, based on hindsight.
The originals were very high value, one came with flusterstorm, mimeoplasm was loaded with value, kaalia is super expensive etc
Cyclonic rift is a 20$ card and came in the teferi deck, teferi is also a 30$ card.
The only set of commander decks I kind of regret purchasing is the most recent one, and this set is not looking much better.
Well, you listed Commander Originals, so, kind of not on topic here. Obviously there is value in the new cards, they’re new.
I'll probably receive a lot of hate for this, but I had a look over some of the decklists for the Commander product as far back as the original. I'll say it the overall value doesn't seem that different.
The only real outliers are the Atraxa deck and the vampire deck with Teferi's Protection.
And the prices on those are like all high Magic prices, based on hindsight.
The originals were very high value, one came with flusterstorm, mimeoplasm was loaded with value, kaalia is super expensive etc
Cyclonic rift is a 20$ card and came in the teferi deck, teferi is also a 30$ card.
The only set of commander decks I kind of regret purchasing is the most recent one, and this set is not looking much better.
Well, you listed Commander Originals, so, kind of not on topic here. Obviously there is value in the new cards, they’re new.
You're right that the list he gave was of original cards but the first (and best) Commander product also contained a LOT of staples. New players are getting hustled by paying $40 for a box of Jank. When I started the product only cost $30 apiece and I got the following reprints and a whole lot more:
Also, how many of those were worth more than a few dollars when the product was released?
Yeah, I love how arguments are being made via the current prices of those cards, rather than what each card was worth when it was released. Using the cards listed recently, here's what the most recent printing of each was approximately worth in mid-2013 (using MTG Goldfish history):
Also, how many of those were worth more than a few dollars when the product was released?
Yeah, I love how arguments are being made via the current prices of those cards, rather than what each card was worth when it was released. Using the cards listed recently, here's what the most recent printing of each was approximately worth in mid-2013 (using MTG Goldfish history):
I think the point is that when the new player sits down for the first time and gets steamrolled, they're going to be unpleasantly surprised to find how exorbitant the costs can be to upgrade their deck (Cyclonic Rift is how much?!). Filling these commander products with needed reprints helps everyone trying to cultivate an EDH collection do so w/o having to apply for a line of credit. For example:
Seedborn Muse is a format staple that makes virtually every deck containing green better by its inclusion. Not long ago it was a $30 card. That's a LOT of money for a card that isn't played in any sort of competitive environment. This new reprint is preselling for under $10 and it's only going to go down.
The new player needs as many of these reprints as they can get. They don't need, nor do they want, 15 cent cards like Pristine Skywise when they're dolling out $40.
I think the point is that when the new player sits down for the first time and gets steamrolled, they're going to be unpleasantly surprised to find how exorbitant the costs can be to upgrade their deck (Cyclonic Rift is how much?!). Filling these commander products with needed reprints helps everyone trying to cultivate an EDH collection do so w/o having to apply for a line of credit. For example:
Seedborn Muse is a format staple that makes virtually every deck containing green better by its inclusion. Not long ago it was a $30 card. That's a LOT of money for a card that isn't played in any sort of competitive environment. This new reprint is preselling for under $10 and it's only going to go down.
The new player needs as many of these reprints as they can get. They don't need, nor do they want, 15 cent cards like Pristine Skywise when they're dolling out $40.
Cyclonic Rift is a bad example. It’s on the fence for banning as is for being casually problematic.
I think the point is that when the new player sits down for the first time and gets steamrolled, they're going to be unpleasantly surprised to find how exorbitant the costs can be to upgrade their deck (Cyclonic Rift is how much?!). Filling these commander products with needed reprints helps everyone trying to cultivate an EDH collection do so w/o having to apply for a line of credit. For example:
Seedborn Museis a format staple that makes virtually every deck containing green better by its inclusion. Not long ago it was a $30 card. That's a LOT of money for a card that isn't played in any sort of competitive environment. This new reprint is preselling for under $10 and it's only going to go down.
The new player needs as many of these reprints as they can get. They don't need, nor do they want, 15 cent cards like Pristine Skywise when they're dolling out $40.
I will be greatly saddened by the large number of people that now run Seedborn Muse or most 'staples' because they lessen diversity and usually fun. The same with Rift and a lot of cards people are asking for in this thread. EDH has a wide range of power level and for those playing at the high end basically, no product being made will ever be 'made for you' because no product could contain enough cards you would want that it would be made for you. For people playing at the lower end, these products are a great starting point. They function out of the box and have clear paths to upgrade depending on what theme you want to focus on and they lack a lot of the 'staples' that make the game more miserable. While I personally won't be happy with Pristine Skywise, to say no one will be happy is a toxic combination of arrogance and ignorance. The simple fact that it is a dragon will make someone happy, the added fact that its a non red dragon will make others happy. Learning that you can use Opt to make it into an immortal surprise blocker is a discovery event that will make others happy. I am almost 100% certain that the newer a player is the more they will like Pristine Skywise over Seedborn Muse.
I think it's important to remember that, in most groups, precons essentially form the floor for competitiveness. There was a time when you could expect at least one person at a given table to be playing a deck composed of draft chaff with a commander they liked from the story as the commander. Those days are long past.
In the theoretical universe where wotc prints precons strong enough that they can compete with 75% constructed decks, imo that really takes the fun out of making your own deck. The precons aren't super strong, but I've both won with them while playing against constructed decks, and I've even lost to one when playing my own constructed decks once or twice. They aren't garbage, they've got some game. If they're too strong, new players don't get the fun of the gradual improvement of their deck and seeing dramatic improvements as they cut the chaff for cool cards they discovered. That upward trajectory is, imo, critical to the drive of players. If you start off winning 20% of games and gradually climb to 25%, it's not super satisfying. If you start off winning 5% and make it to 15% after making some upgrades, that feels like a big improvement and is much more satisfying.
Event decks for standard are kind of necessary because, in a 1v1 format, there's a lot less room for sucking. You'll be playing against meta decks in most LGSs and your deck will need to handle their strength in a straight-up 1v1 fight in order to have a chance.
But that's not true for commander. With multiplayer balance being what it is, a new players with precons can probably expect to draw a lot less attention than other players with better decks. Hence how it's actually feasible to win with one. I think my winrate with precons is probably like 20% or so...which is still a far cry from my winrate playing my own decks (or borrowed decks). But it's still not bad. If you've got the skills you can absolutely make up for the weakness of a precon. I still remember time when I lost to a guy playing a precon, because he absolutely knew what he was doing and it was damn impressive play.
I kinda lost track of what I was saying. I guess the point is - I don't really want to live in a world where precons are at the same power level as constructed decks out of the box. Flat power levels are good for other formats, but in commander a diversity of power levels is more fun imo.
Diversity made by keeping new players down is only fun for mediocre people who don't want to play up to the enfranchised player's level. Getting trounced as a noob (for what ammounts to being trained wrong, as a joke) is not fun, and winning vs people who can't defend themselves isn't fun either as an enfranchised player.
Decks also don't need to be 100% cEDH decks to be good, 75%+ of enfranchised players don't play at that level judging for the numbers at reddit/discord/deckstats/etc. Edgar, Breya, Meren, Freyalise, Ob and Daretti were all capable (not likely or favored but still able) of winning in an average 4 player casual table vs other popular commanders. They could do that because of a combination of great new cards and excellent reprints that complemented their strategy.
Wining is fun, playing good cards is fun, adapting your deck to your local meta is also more fun when the adaptation isn't "throw 80 of the 100 cards you paid $40 for in the trash". Just because some of us had to make do without the internet, without online shops delivering to our front step, LGS not having what we need in stock or having it drastically overpriced, dealing with sharks and abusive players more interested in finally having someone to bully than helping us get better, and all of the other terrible ***** that used to come with being a noob, doesn't mean we have to make new players live through that crap.
Seedborn Muse is a format staple that makes virtually every deck containing green better by its inclusion. Not long ago it was a $30 card. That's a LOT of money for a card that isn't played in any sort of competitive environment. This new reprint is preselling for under $10 and it's only going to go down.
A bit off topic but I think seedborne muse is one of the most overrated cards in commander. People started including it after prophet was banned but they are not at all 1-1 comparable in what they do.
Well, we've seen all 4 decks now and I think I can safely say no, these are NOT at all a bust. Are there things I'd like to see improved with these? Assuredly as well as a few things I don't understand. Big one is the lack of Smoldering Marsh in the Madness deck when all the others got a BFZ land. But I think they've addressed pretty much every criticism I saw from last year.
1. The decks didn't feel like the themes promised.
That's definitely not the case this time. The decks all feel like they leaned heavily into their themes. Each of the decks has about 20+ cards actually devoted to the theme. And not tangentially like last year's but directly referencing or interacting with what the average player thinks of when they think of the theme. The Morph deck especially looks alot like what you'd expect to see in a Morph deck. In fact, minus some of the much older cards I see a lot of overlap between the morph decks for Animar on EDHrec and the Morph Precon.
2. Low value.
There were more reprints in these than last years and the reprints actually look interesting. In multiple cases there are things here I don't have in my collection and I've got a pretty nice one at this point. People need to examine the reprints that were in the original decks at the time the decks were released, not now after EDH has exploded the way it has. As another post noted, stuff like Aura Shards were 2ish dollar cards at that time. Again, as the Command Zone noted you're generally getting 70+ bucks just in reprints. Nevermind that K'rrick, Son of Yawgmoth is a 30 dollar card right now by itself. Volrath, Shapestealer is 15, Elsha of the Infinite is 20. Now, those will inevitably drop when this gets out there but these precons also always rise back up in price after about a year.
3. Power of the Decks.
Precons have never been especially powerful. We won't know how these do until we get the chance to play with them but some of the new cards alone look powerful and interesting and I think, not only will these be fun to play against each other, but it might be more feasible to sneak wins in and have game at medium power level tables than people think. Nevermind that as enfranchised players, we should be doing a better job of scaling our decks to the power level to allow a newer player to have a good time anyway. I've seen lots of spurious claims here about new players getting steamrolled against actually tuned decks but this seems to me to be an example of experienced players needing to learn to be better stewards of the game than a problem with the decks Wizards puts out.
4. Interesting commanders to build around and cards for old characters.
We got Volrath, Gerard, Marisi, Chainer, Tangarth, a reference to Yawgmoth and Greven. In addition to a new Morph commander, a new Populate/token Commander, a legendary wall commander, a monk that screams "break me," and has fantastic art, an absurd madness enabler.
Now, I'm still not sure this is a product for me personally, but it's also the first year in a long time I'm not sure I want just one of these which is what I usually do (just buy one) and have no idea if I'll actually get the decks or just buy singles. The fact it's making someone like me who was probably going to just ignore this when he heard the themes rethink that stance says something positive about the product to me at least.
I'm gonna get booed and naysayed but I stand by the fact that while this could certainly be better, I do not think it is, in any way, shape or form, a bust.
I'm not certain it's a bust, as I think the new cards are pretty decent this time around, and there aren't too many generals that feel underthought. That's exciting.
However, as someone who's been playing for 20+ years and who knows that because Commander is so popular all of these new card values drop to single digits (under $5) within 3 months after release besides 2-4 cards (I'm pretty sure Sanctum of Eternity and Scroll of Fate are on that list), I don't feel too eager to buy. The only theme I was excited by was the Jeskai one and it felt like it didn't deliver.
I also have all these crappy bulk cards in my binders they reprinted this time around and I really don't wanna add bulk at this point. I don't think there was one needed reprint in this set except Garruk and Clever Impersonator-- besides that I think we got a lot of these reprinted recently?
Anyways, it's not a bust, but the reprint value just isn't there (for me), but I'll probably spend my $40 getting the singles I need and pass on actually buying the product itself -- a move I did last year that I don't regret at all. I personally feel WOTC should have one $10-$15 scarcity reprint per deck -- the market will adjust correctly and bring it back to healthy once enough get out.
That or just scrap precons down to 1 per year and do a commander booster set with its release so that the market can be tamed more, because some of these staples are ridiculous for new players to acquire (I doubt this will be a popular opinion).
That being said, the power level of the Madness Deck seems really damn strong. If you don't have the cards in that deck, def get that one.
Diversity made by keeping new players down is only fun for mediocre people who don't want to play up to the enfranchised player's level. Getting trounced as a noob (for what ammounts to being trained wrong, as a joke) is not fun, and winning vs people who can't defend themselves isn't fun either as an enfranchised player.
Decks also don't need to be 100% cEDH decks to be good, 75%+ of enfranchised players don't play at that level judging for the numbers at reddit/discord/deckstats/etc. Edgar, Breya, Meren, Freyalise, Ob and Daretti were all capable (not likely or favored but still able) of winning in an average 4 player casual table vs other popular commanders. They could do that because of a combination of great new cards and excellent reprints that complemented their strategy.
Wining is fun, playing good cards is fun, adapting your deck to your local meta is also more fun when the adaptation isn't "throw 80 of the 100 cards you paid $40 for in the trash". Just because some of us had to make do without the internet, without online shops delivering to our front step, LGS not having what we need in stock or having it drastically overpriced, dealing with sharks and abusive players more interested in finally having someone to bully than helping us get better, and all of the other terrible ***** that used to come with being a noob, doesn't mean we have to make new players live through that crap.
I feel like you're not hearing me. Every year's precons to date - and I highly doubt this years will be different - are perfectly capable of winning at a 75% table. If you're new, it'll be pretty hard. If you're good, it's pretty doable. But either way, possible. I think that's a good level for the precons to be at, personally. It's not a joke, a trick, or a scam. It's a huge improvement for players that otherwise would cobble something together from whatever jank they have lying around.
I'd say maybe 5% of edh players play cEDH in my personal experience. Even players who "play cEDH" are usually playing tier 2 or 3 decks at best. I've never run into anyone playing flash hulk or food chain combo at any group I've played in. And I've played in a lot of groups.
I think you're taking the way an experienced player would approach the precons and assuming that a new player would, or should, want to do it the same way. Most new players who start with precons that I've played against make gradual improvements - cut a card they don't like, find a card they do like, and improve their deck bit by bit. They don't generally just leap immediately from precon to fully-optimized in one fell swoop, like an enfranchised player would. Sure, after a year of playing the deck, maybe they've replaced more than half of it, but that's fine, they've been learning the whole time - both about how to play and build the deck, and about what they personally like and don't like about the deck, and building the deck to accentuate those features.
Why would you want to intruduce new players to commander? Edh is one of the most complex formats and people who are just starting with mtg shouldn't really play it first.
If a new player loves the wall in the WUR deck and wants to go full "don't touch me" now he has to spend $10+ buying Propaganda instead of the $4 he'd have to spend if they had put the card that does the same but they haven't been reprinting constantly instead.
I don't want to get rich buying precons, but I appreciate comodity a lot and they're not giving it to us. Signets don't cost much more than Lockets, why not give us Signets to begin with and not make players have to pay shipping to get a negligible cost increase but considerable power boost in their preconstructed deck? There's also a lot of cards that aren't very expensive but are 15+ years old and increasingly harder to get in good condition, did it really cost them so much to not ignore Onslaught block and fill the Morph deck with cards from the most opened block in history that are crawling out of every LGS' bulk bin?
Precons should be about comfort and accessibility, make it easier for people to get into the game. Getting the Morph deck and being recommended to drop a bunch of the cards in your box for inexpensive cards nobody carries in their binders and most stores that opened during the early 2010's boom have never had in stock is not a welcoming experience.
Also more diversity is more fun imo. Sure lockets are usually worse but sometimes not. New Players should try lots of cards and see what they prefer imo, instead of falling into well-worn staples before they even know what they’re doing.
Also not super relevant but medallions are god-awful in 3c. It would really detract from playing well out of the box.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I never “asked for” “Slamming reprints, specifically powerful ones”. Resorting to reductio ad absurdum OR attempting to put words in my mouth just demonstrates you have no argument. What I DID say was “1-2 cards of the $7 to $12 variety” per deck (so minimum 4, maximum 8), and “1-2 cards total across all four decks of the ~$20 variety”. So that’s a total of minimum 5 cards (4/1) or a maximum 10 cards (8/2) in total. That’s between 1.25 and 2.5 cards per deck, solely for the purpose of providing easy, affordable access to cards that are staples in the format. If 1.25 to 2.5 cards to you is “slamming” them into a deck in your mind, most would disagree with you.
As for gameplay balance, do you really think Wizards can’t design decks to accommodate the strength of 2 quality reprints per deck? LOL, whatever. Likewise, your argument is weak when you cherrypick certain cards in my list (which BTW was not meant to be comprehensive, but I thought nearly 40 examples was enough to make my point), such as the tutors and the feelbads, when cards like Chromatic Lantern, Thought Vessel, and Expedition Map were also valid suggestions and would serve my point and serve their purpose just as well.
Low-power cube enthusiast!
My 1570 card cube (no longer updated)
My 415 Peasant+ Artifact and Enchantment Cube
Ever-Expanding "Just throw it in" cube.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
The only real outliers are the Atraxa deck and the vampire deck with Teferi's Protection.
And the prices on those are like all high Magic prices, based on hindsight.
It can’t. Because it completely undermines the point made in the OP. After one deck, this set was a bust, remember?
The originals were very high value, one came with flusterstorm, mimeoplasm was loaded with value, kaalia is super expensive etc
Cyclonic rift is a 20$ card and came in the teferi deck, teferi is also a 30$ card.
The only set of commander decks I kind of regret purchasing is the most recent one, and this set is not looking much better.
Well, you listed Commander Originals, so, kind of not on topic here. Obviously there is value in the new cards, they’re new.
Aura Shards
Grave Pact
Oblivion Stone
Austere Command
Insurrection
Lightning Greaves
Solemn Simulacrum
Skullclamp
Scavenging Ooze
Eternal Witness
Signets
The list literally keeps going on and on...
Also, how many of those were worth more than a few dollars when the product was released?
Yeah, I love how arguments are being made via the current prices of those cards, rather than what each card was worth when it was released. Using the cards listed recently, here's what the most recent printing of each was approximately worth in mid-2013 (using MTG Goldfish history):
Aura Shards: $2
Grave Pact: $5.50
Oblivion Stone: $10
Austere Command: $3.50
Insurrection: $1.50
Lightning Greaves: $4
Solemn Simulacrum: $3
Skullclamp: $2.50
Eternal Witness: $3.50
Mr. Jiggles comin' to town and gonna take you on down to the hootenanny, so y'all best be lookin' out for a good, jiggly time.
Yeah, thanks for doing the leg work. It should quiet the whiners, considering it’s straight facts, but it won’t.
Seedborn Muse is a format staple that makes virtually every deck containing green better by its inclusion. Not long ago it was a $30 card. That's a LOT of money for a card that isn't played in any sort of competitive environment. This new reprint is preselling for under $10 and it's only going to go down.
The new player needs as many of these reprints as they can get. They don't need, nor do they want, 15 cent cards like Pristine Skywise when they're dolling out $40.
Cyclonic Rift is a bad example. It’s on the fence for banning as is for being casually problematic.
In the theoretical universe where wotc prints precons strong enough that they can compete with 75% constructed decks, imo that really takes the fun out of making your own deck. The precons aren't super strong, but I've both won with them while playing against constructed decks, and I've even lost to one when playing my own constructed decks once or twice. They aren't garbage, they've got some game. If they're too strong, new players don't get the fun of the gradual improvement of their deck and seeing dramatic improvements as they cut the chaff for cool cards they discovered. That upward trajectory is, imo, critical to the drive of players. If you start off winning 20% of games and gradually climb to 25%, it's not super satisfying. If you start off winning 5% and make it to 15% after making some upgrades, that feels like a big improvement and is much more satisfying.
Event decks for standard are kind of necessary because, in a 1v1 format, there's a lot less room for sucking. You'll be playing against meta decks in most LGSs and your deck will need to handle their strength in a straight-up 1v1 fight in order to have a chance.
But that's not true for commander. With multiplayer balance being what it is, a new players with precons can probably expect to draw a lot less attention than other players with better decks. Hence how it's actually feasible to win with one. I think my winrate with precons is probably like 20% or so...which is still a far cry from my winrate playing my own decks (or borrowed decks). But it's still not bad. If you've got the skills you can absolutely make up for the weakness of a precon. I still remember time when I lost to a guy playing a precon, because he absolutely knew what he was doing and it was damn impressive play.
I kinda lost track of what I was saying. I guess the point is - I don't really want to live in a world where precons are at the same power level as constructed decks out of the box. Flat power levels are good for other formats, but in commander a diversity of power levels is more fun imo.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Decks also don't need to be 100% cEDH decks to be good, 75%+ of enfranchised players don't play at that level judging for the numbers at reddit/discord/deckstats/etc. Edgar, Breya, Meren, Freyalise, Ob and Daretti were all capable (not likely or favored but still able) of winning in an average 4 player casual table vs other popular commanders. They could do that because of a combination of great new cards and excellent reprints that complemented their strategy.
Wining is fun, playing good cards is fun, adapting your deck to your local meta is also more fun when the adaptation isn't "throw 80 of the 100 cards you paid $40 for in the trash". Just because some of us had to make do without the internet, without online shops delivering to our front step, LGS not having what we need in stock or having it drastically overpriced, dealing with sharks and abusive players more interested in finally having someone to bully than helping us get better, and all of the other terrible ***** that used to come with being a noob, doesn't mean we have to make new players live through that crap.
A bit off topic but I think seedborne muse is one of the most overrated cards in commander. People started including it after prophet was banned but they are not at all 1-1 comparable in what they do.
1. The decks didn't feel like the themes promised.
That's definitely not the case this time. The decks all feel like they leaned heavily into their themes. Each of the decks has about 20+ cards actually devoted to the theme. And not tangentially like last year's but directly referencing or interacting with what the average player thinks of when they think of the theme. The Morph deck especially looks alot like what you'd expect to see in a Morph deck. In fact, minus some of the much older cards I see a lot of overlap between the morph decks for Animar on EDHrec and the Morph Precon.
2. Low value.
There were more reprints in these than last years and the reprints actually look interesting. In multiple cases there are things here I don't have in my collection and I've got a pretty nice one at this point. People need to examine the reprints that were in the original decks at the time the decks were released, not now after EDH has exploded the way it has. As another post noted, stuff like Aura Shards were 2ish dollar cards at that time. Again, as the Command Zone noted you're generally getting 70+ bucks just in reprints. Nevermind that K'rrick, Son of Yawgmoth is a 30 dollar card right now by itself. Volrath, Shapestealer is 15, Elsha of the Infinite is 20. Now, those will inevitably drop when this gets out there but these precons also always rise back up in price after about a year.
3. Power of the Decks.
Precons have never been especially powerful. We won't know how these do until we get the chance to play with them but some of the new cards alone look powerful and interesting and I think, not only will these be fun to play against each other, but it might be more feasible to sneak wins in and have game at medium power level tables than people think. Nevermind that as enfranchised players, we should be doing a better job of scaling our decks to the power level to allow a newer player to have a good time anyway. I've seen lots of spurious claims here about new players getting steamrolled against actually tuned decks but this seems to me to be an example of experienced players needing to learn to be better stewards of the game than a problem with the decks Wizards puts out.
4. Interesting commanders to build around and cards for old characters.
We got Volrath, Gerard, Marisi, Chainer, Tangarth, a reference to Yawgmoth and Greven. In addition to a new Morph commander, a new Populate/token Commander, a legendary wall commander, a monk that screams "break me," and has fantastic art, an absurd madness enabler.
Now, I'm still not sure this is a product for me personally, but it's also the first year in a long time I'm not sure I want just one of these which is what I usually do (just buy one) and have no idea if I'll actually get the decks or just buy singles. The fact it's making someone like me who was probably going to just ignore this when he heard the themes rethink that stance says something positive about the product to me at least.
I'm gonna get booed and naysayed but I stand by the fact that while this could certainly be better, I do not think it is, in any way, shape or form, a bust.
However, as someone who's been playing for 20+ years and who knows that because Commander is so popular all of these new card values drop to single digits (under $5) within 3 months after release besides 2-4 cards (I'm pretty sure Sanctum of Eternity and Scroll of Fate are on that list), I don't feel too eager to buy. The only theme I was excited by was the Jeskai one and it felt like it didn't deliver.
I also have all these crappy bulk cards in my binders they reprinted this time around and I really don't wanna add bulk at this point. I don't think there was one needed reprint in this set except Garruk and Clever Impersonator-- besides that I think we got a lot of these reprinted recently?
Anyways, it's not a bust, but the reprint value just isn't there (for me), but I'll probably spend my $40 getting the singles I need and pass on actually buying the product itself -- a move I did last year that I don't regret at all. I personally feel WOTC should have one $10-$15 scarcity reprint per deck -- the market will adjust correctly and bring it back to healthy once enough get out.
That or just scrap precons down to 1 per year and do a commander booster set with its release so that the market can be tamed more, because some of these staples are ridiculous for new players to acquire (I doubt this will be a popular opinion).
That being said, the power level of the Madness Deck seems really damn strong. If you don't have the cards in that deck, def get that one.
I'd say maybe 5% of edh players play cEDH in my personal experience. Even players who "play cEDH" are usually playing tier 2 or 3 decks at best. I've never run into anyone playing flash hulk or food chain combo at any group I've played in. And I've played in a lot of groups.
I think you're taking the way an experienced player would approach the precons and assuming that a new player would, or should, want to do it the same way. Most new players who start with precons that I've played against make gradual improvements - cut a card they don't like, find a card they do like, and improve their deck bit by bit. They don't generally just leap immediately from precon to fully-optimized in one fell swoop, like an enfranchised player would. Sure, after a year of playing the deck, maybe they've replaced more than half of it, but that's fine, they've been learning the whole time - both about how to play and build the deck, and about what they personally like and don't like about the deck, and building the deck to accentuate those features.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6