I dont follow standard at all, but I have heard many players say that The Haunt of Hightower is not a good card becuase it is only a 3/3 for 6 mana. But the 3 power enables Gruesome Menagerie to reanimate it, and Burglar Rat instantly makes it a 4/4, plus whatever simic 2/2 creature they print with +1/+1 counter synergies boosts the power even more.
Am I missing somthing here? Is Gruesome Menagerie just too slow? I just want to hear other people's opinions.
High CMC cards that don't win the game on the spot and don't do anything on their own if they're not surrounded by bad cards don't usually end up being good. Compare to Doom Whisperer, which is even one mana less and generates value even if it's removed immediately.
I dont follow standard at all, but I have heard many players say that The Haunt of Hightower is not a good card becuase it is only a 3/3 for 6 mana. But the 3 power enables Gruesome Menagerie to reanimate it, and Burglar Rat instantly makes it a 4/4, plus whatever simic 2/2 creature they print with +1/+1 counter synergies boosts the power even more.
Am I missing somthing here? Is Gruesome Menagerie just too slow? I just want to hear other people's opinions.
I like that you are asking without just outright slamming the card. It will not work with the menagerie but it could work with other reanimator effects and could do some work with a little protection. The problem is in standard, in particular, if you tap mana for a creature you want it to do something. 3 toughness in standard is softer than charmin and without hexproof or some other punishing effect for that cost, it will not live very long. Would have been nice to have, when this creature becomes a target of an ability an opponent controls, they discard a card or something. A nice 2 for one to go along with the +1 stuff or something. Can't be countered or hexproof would probably push him too much.
But for the most part, they'll just bolt/murder/price of fame/essence scatter/cancel it and you'll be out how ever much mana you spent to cast it.
As noted first up, Gruesome Menagerie keys off converted mana cost, and cannot help you reanimate the Haunt. You're going to have to pay the full six and can't wombo-combo up with Burglar Rat + Ravenous Chupacabra to start at 5/5.
A larger answer is that any card that costs more than the most common removal in any given format needs to be truly exceptional to see significant play. In particular, as much of the following needs to be true as possible. The more that is true, the more likely such a card is to see play. These are listed in priority order.
1. This card should generate instant impact. A card that generates an instant impact, such as removing an opposing card or drawing cards, is great because it means even if the card is immediately answered, you aren't necessarily down a card.
2. This card is incredibly hard to profitably remove. Maybe it has hexproof, or protection, or some punishment for removing it like a powerful death trigger. Maybe it generates tokens, so even if it is removed it leaves bodies around. Can't get blown out by removal if the card can't be removed
3. This card will end the game in just a turn or two if it is allowed to live. Opponents MUST remove it, or they just lose.
4. It at least resists some of the more conditional removal? That's a plus.
Looking at a few 5+ drops that are played in Standard now...
Carnage Tyrant: Hits "2" in spades as it is both uncounterable and hexproof - there's not a single removal spell on that list that can hit this. Also arguably hits #3, as it can easily end games in just a few swings. Despite that, it has bounced wildly between being a 4-of and being a sideboard card only for its tenure in standard since it is only borderline on "3" and it doesn't generate any value (so if an opponent kills it, even with Cleansing Nova or Settle the Wreckage, they're still technically coming out ahead).
Doom Whisperer: Effectively hits item #1, since as long as it actually gets on the table you can surveil as much as you're willing to sacrifice life for in response to any removal. Additionally, a 6/6 flying for 5 is an insane deadly rate that can end games and does, in a way, "impact the board" immediately since it can rumble with any creature in standard on defense. It does hit #4 as well, as it is so big that it can take a Lava Coil or Wizard's Retort and laugh it off and it can do good work and play around Seal Away. Despite that, sees fringe play at best.
Niv-mizzet, Parun: Hits both #1 and #2, as most removal used on it nets you a card AND deals damage to something. If allowed to live, can just run away with games. Also pairs great with Negate/Essence Scatter to cast him with mana up for protection. While its hitting of #1 and #2 is a bit shaky, it definitely hits #4 - big enough to tank the burn spells, and outright uncounterable so no fear of getting Scattered or Sabotaged. Not a format definer even with all that power because it hitting #1 and #2 is so situational; his popularity has ebbed and flowed.
Lyra Dawnbringer: Sorta kinda has immediate board impact - the +1/+1 can matter if you have other angels, and a 5/5 Flying First Strike Lifelink is a brick wall on defense against aggresive decks, netting not just a kill but 5 life as well. She resists burn spells.
Siege-gang Commander: Making tokens does double duty in hitting 1 and 2, since it has a big board impact AND makes opponents need more than 1 removal spell or need a sweeper.
In comparison, all we can say for The Haunt of Hightower is that it hits #4 - and even then, it's only immune to Csst Down and Baffling End (although it also generates value off of Seal Away since the discard is an attack trigger. If it attacks it does genereate value and obviously it can go buck wild with the right support, but in standard it's a death sentence to die to almost every removal spell, cost six mana, do nothing when cast, and need a lot of support to straight up win games.
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Is it possible that people are looking at this a little wrong? If played in a control shell, then it's not slammed on T6, but T8-9 with counter backup. Every time you then counter a removal spell, it gets bigger. Every time you kill another creature, it gets bigger. Every time you counter ANYTHING it gets bigger. It has the potential to take over the game pretty quickly. So, arguably, when cast at the right time, it certainly hits point 3.
i doubt this one will make it into standard, the moment he gets big it will probably just a "win more" card, but it doesnt enable winning all on its own
but this card is strange designvise, even for casual
doesnt feel very legendary to me. looks like an ordinary vampire, has no real name... dont even get why it is legendary tbh
I agree mechanics-wise, but to play devil's advocate, it could be legendary is flavor as in saying its a ghost or something haunting the tower. Similar to the headless horsemen. He doesn't have a name per se, but there is a legend that many people know about him. Maybe on Ravnica, there is a legend that many people know about something terrible haunting the highest tower.
Am I missing somthing here? Is Gruesome Menagerie just too slow? I just want to hear other people's opinions.
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I like that you are asking without just outright slamming the card. It will not work with the menagerie but it could work with other reanimator effects and could do some work with a little protection. The problem is in standard, in particular, if you tap mana for a creature you want it to do something. 3 toughness in standard is softer than charmin and without hexproof or some other punishing effect for that cost, it will not live very long. Would have been nice to have, when this creature becomes a target of an ability an opponent controls, they discard a card or something. A nice 2 for one to go along with the +1 stuff or something. Can't be countered or hexproof would probably push him too much.
But for the most part, they'll just bolt/murder/price of fame/essence scatter/cancel it and you'll be out how ever much mana you spent to cast it.
A larger answer is that any card that costs more than the most common removal in any given format needs to be truly exceptional to see significant play. In particular, as much of the following needs to be true as possible. The more that is true, the more likely such a card is to see play. These are listed in priority order.
1. This card should generate instant impact. A card that generates an instant impact, such as removing an opposing card or drawing cards, is great because it means even if the card is immediately answered, you aren't necessarily down a card.
2. This card is incredibly hard to profitably remove. Maybe it has hexproof, or protection, or some punishment for removing it like a powerful death trigger. Maybe it generates tokens, so even if it is removed it leaves bodies around. Can't get blown out by removal if the card can't be removed
3. This card will end the game in just a turn or two if it is allowed to live. Opponents MUST remove it, or they just lose.
4. It at least resists some of the more conditional removal? That's a plus.
Currently, the most played unconditional removal in standard is 4 mana - Vraska's Contempt, Ixalan's Binding, Conclave Tribunal, Ravenous Chupacabra. There's also some relevant, powerful, but situational stuff at a lower cost - Wizard's Retort, Baffling End, Sinister Sabotage, Wizard's Lightning, Lava Coil, Cast Down, Essence Scatter, Seal Away. So any card that is 5+ plus faces some intense scrutiny.
Looking at a few 5+ drops that are played in Standard now...
Carnage Tyrant: Hits "2" in spades as it is both uncounterable and hexproof - there's not a single removal spell on that list that can hit this. Also arguably hits #3, as it can easily end games in just a few swings. Despite that, it has bounced wildly between being a 4-of and being a sideboard card only for its tenure in standard since it is only borderline on "3" and it doesn't generate any value (so if an opponent kills it, even with Cleansing Nova or Settle the Wreckage, they're still technically coming out ahead).
Doom Whisperer: Effectively hits item #1, since as long as it actually gets on the table you can surveil as much as you're willing to sacrifice life for in response to any removal. Additionally, a 6/6 flying for 5 is an insane deadly rate that can end games and does, in a way, "impact the board" immediately since it can rumble with any creature in standard on defense. It does hit #4 as well, as it is so big that it can take a Lava Coil or Wizard's Retort and laugh it off and it can do good work and play around Seal Away. Despite that, sees fringe play at best.
Niv-mizzet, Parun: Hits both #1 and #2, as most removal used on it nets you a card AND deals damage to something. If allowed to live, can just run away with games. Also pairs great with Negate/Essence Scatter to cast him with mana up for protection. While its hitting of #1 and #2 is a bit shaky, it definitely hits #4 - big enough to tank the burn spells, and outright uncounterable so no fear of getting Scattered or Sabotaged. Not a format definer even with all that power because it hitting #1 and #2 is so situational; his popularity has ebbed and flowed.
Lyra Dawnbringer: Sorta kinda has immediate board impact - the +1/+1 can matter if you have other angels, and a 5/5 Flying First Strike Lifelink is a brick wall on defense against aggresive decks, netting not just a kill but 5 life as well. She resists burn spells.
Siege-gang Commander: Making tokens does double duty in hitting 1 and 2, since it has a big board impact AND makes opponents need more than 1 removal spell or need a sweeper.
In comparison, all we can say for The Haunt of Hightower is that it hits #4 - and even then, it's only immune to Csst Down and Baffling End (although it also generates value off of Seal Away since the discard is an attack trigger. If it attacks it does genereate value and obviously it can go buck wild with the right support, but in standard it's a death sentence to die to almost every removal spell, cost six mana, do nothing when cast, and need a lot of support to straight up win games.
RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR
WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG
GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG
GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G)
RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW
UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B)
WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
I agree mechanics-wise, but to play devil's advocate, it could be legendary is flavor as in saying its a ghost or something haunting the tower. Similar to the headless horsemen. He doesn't have a name per se, but there is a legend that many people know about him. Maybe on Ravnica, there is a legend that many people know about something terrible haunting the highest tower.
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=89082
-1 Mana
Zombie VS Vampire
Not Legendary
Not Lifelink
No Discardtrigger