Starting with Hour of Destruction Wizards wanted to start making answers a bit better, letting that pendulum swing back just enough after we had multiple bannings and Standard doing poorly.
Looking over the set I honestly can't quite tell if they met their promise, but the removal is better than normal from a small set and from what we've had to work with. Yes, we got a fewboardwipes even if two have stipulations, the various Defeats (which may be playable depending on the format(s)), a couple of very decent counterspells, and other basic levels of removal with varying degree of quality.
To me it seems like they both did and didn't meet what they said, possibly because none of it is truly flashy, but it does look like a lot of it will get the job done.
What are your thoughts? Has WotC kept their promise with better removal and answers or do you feel that what's here is still not in keeping with what they said?
They brought ton of graveyard hate....wich its abit too late. When ixalan shows up, Delirium will leave standard so that graveyard hate its rather pointless.
They brought ton of graveyard hate....wich its abit too late. When ixalan shows up, Delirium will leave standard so that graveyard hate its rather pointless.
I totally forgot about that. There is oddly a lot of graveyard hate when there isn't much to hate for anymore. I understand they felt the need to make up for missing it for almost two years, but there does seem far too much.
My answer is No. While the big sweepers will hit planeswalkers they didn't print any standard direct planeswalker kills that are instant. The Defeat cycle might work out for sideboard but it's so narrow it pains me to put them in the board unless there's a known deck to beat (which there will be).
If they were intending to bring good removal to the table they didn't just fail, they failed spectacularly. Does wizards just live in a box and pretend to listen to people? I'm seriously starting to get that vibe...
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Hero's Downfall could have had really great art of the Gatewatch suffering before Bolas on it if it had been reprinted here
That could've done a epic art for that one. Something Like the old Wrath of God art would've been cool. The gatewatch all laid out on the ground and bolas shadow over top of them.
Abrade does feel better than By Force since it isn't dead against non-artifacts, so it has that going for it. I still think that it is just a better sideboard card than By Force as energy decks will still be running Harnessed Lightning and until rotation, red still has access to Incendiary Flow and Collective Defiance. Both of those cards I'd run over anything that is in Amonkhet for direct damage.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Hero's Downfall could have had really great art of the Gatewatch suffering before Bolas on it if it had been reprinted here
That could've done a epic art for that one. Something Like the old Wrath of God art would've been cool. The gatewatch all laid out on the ground and bolas shadow over top of them.
Or, better yet, they could have made five versions of Hero's Downfall, each one depicting a different member of the gatewatch.
Also, still no 2-cmc 3 damage to face or creature burn spell (à la Lightning Strike) yet. And before you say Abrade is a thing, not only it can't hit planeswalkers, but Lightning Strike would've actually been a good answer to Copter, and maybe WOTC wouldn't have had to ban things from Standard for 3 times in a row.
I don't understand that at all either. Burn has completely sucked since Magic Origins. That's two full years of burn being basically nonexistent in any marginally viable form.
And here's the thing, with eternalize and the cards that we've seen from HOU its obvious that 4 toughness is the magic number in this limited format. So its not even like printing Lightning Strike in this set would have destroyed limited. Like they could even rareshift it up to uncommon, I wouldn't care. I don't know, it just feels sad that we're begging for a 2 cmc lightning bolt. It sucks that we literally have a 3 cmc version as our only option unless we want to be strictly sorcery speed. This is why I was actually excited to see Shock again after all this time in Aether Revolt.
Considering when they said that the threat pendulum had swung too far. I am not sure they have had time to react yet. Curious to see the ixalan uncommons and commons. Even then I think it would be the set after Ixalan or the next. If we don't see anything by then, the answer is a definite no.
The sweepers are much better than the utter garbage we've been getting like Fumigate or Descend Upon the Sinful, but spot removal is still much weaker than the threats that WotC puts out. If there are a glut of 2-3CMC threats that are powerful and resilient (think Heart of Kiran), a 2CMC conditional answer, even one as flexible as Abrade, isn't all that hot. It's only an even tempo trade, and Abrade is a dead card in a lot of situations. And I'm none too excited about 4 mana as the baseline for unconditional, Instant-speed kill in one color; Hour of Glory is just too slow.
Then again, Hour might be too soon to judge. I'll wait until I've seen more of Ixalan before I start going full angry grognard.
This is definitely the beginning of swinging the pendulum back the other way. You're foolish if you thought they were going to abruptly switch back to Lightning Bolts and Doom Blades. Also, the promise was for better answers, not necessarily better burn. Abrade is certainly an answer to many problems, just not the problem of 'my opponent has 3 life too much.' Open Fire is a disappointment and was probably inflexible to the better answers plan, but Countervailing Winds and Supreme Will are very nice counterspells that are almost certainly the result of this philosophy change.
This is definitely the beginning of swinging the pendulum back the other way. You're foolish if you thought they were going to abruptly switch back to Lightning Bolts and Doom Blades. Also, the promise was for better answers, not necessarily better burn. Abrade is certainly an answer to many problems, just not the problem of 'my opponent has 3 life too much.' Open Fire is a disappointment and was probably inflexible to the better answers plan, but Countervailing Winds and Supreme Will are very nice counterspells that are almost certainly the result of this philosophy change.
The entire problem is all coming back to the format support system wizards originally tried to create that is now backfiring on them as they move to a newer development standard. What most people are expecting when it comes to answers are things that are competitive in modern as well as standard. People do want better answers in standard to try and have a more healthy and interactive meta, but in the long run the real driver that keeps the game going is the transition of cards into something people want to keep in their collection.
The trouble is they can't really print for modern anymore via standard. The cards people want in modern (going by past articles) are too strong for standard, don't fit the theme of the plane they are frequenting, or are cards they are unsure about and don't really want to reprint. This has lead them to printing two different sets of cards every year and at two completely different price points, with one set way high due to conflicting interests on the corporate level.
So, now it seems the company has its eyes on EDH / Commander as the new non-rotating format due to it's stability on the secondary market compared to modern, which spikes all over the place due to the way decks get constructed and how only the best of the best cards can make the cut, which usually are all mythics and rares these days.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Honestly, from a Standard perspective? I think they have. Look at the colour self hate, look at the 3 mana-5 mana 'wrath' type cards, the exile effects.
I think there is a fair bit of hate in this block.
We received some incredibly powerful Answers, such as Solemnity and Crook of Condemnation to shut down linear Energy and Graveyard strategies. The sideboard hits keep on rolling with the "Defeat" cycle - eat it pushed Planeswalkers! So that part of the promise was kept. We also got a very versatile maindeckable artifact destruction spell in Abrade, which is a nice pick-up against the Heart of Kiran menace.
I still don't think we've got powerful REMOVAL, however. We're still at five-mana wraths, and while expecting more Fatal Push is unreasonable, I think a stronger counter at two and better burn/exile would be beneficial. Hour of Glory and Open Fire are a bit insulting given the speed of the meta.
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I very much doubt they changed anything in this block prior to printing. If HoD wasn't in can it was in process when the standard ban game started.
The powerful hate is part of their newer design philosophy, push the new set and its mechanics HARD. So naturally they print hate for the previous set. Hate isn't good removal, it's situational hoser cards that you usually don't maindeck... unless the meta is broke as... well it has been. Fatal Push in a land where most the good stuff in Gideon or 5 CMC is weaksauce. Look at all the 5/5 creatures that dodge Grasping Darkness.
When we're talking about keeping a promise we mean removal that comes up to par with creatures like Rogue Refiner.
You get a body, energy, and a card. Even if I Magma Spray on your end step you still got energy and a card and I lost a card.
If they're not going to stop stupid OP creature prints, then removal needs to look like;
'Destroy target creature, gain life equal to its toughness, scry 1'
'Counter target spell, gain life equal to its CMC, scry 1'
'Exile target creature, scry 2'
You get the picture. Instead we get Hour of Glory. They give us removal to poop on!
Nope. I have called that promise broken before and i will do so again. they did not 'swing' anything in answers. they brought the power level closer by taking most of the power out of the threats. I had thought I would give them a chance, this was the set they promised would be different, I was hoping for answers that were as strong as the threats they printed during Kaladesh. Just Kaladesh, I wasn't looking for them to match BFZ nuttiness. they failed. the 'better answers' in this set are narrow and weak. I understand that few cards will be good enough for Modern, but I started really playing formats when M12 was around. I stand by that being a FANTASTIC set, this weaksauce set would contribute almost nothing in a Standard with that Core Set. People used to call those sets weak, but Doom Blade, Bolt, Titans....that set would stomp this entire Standard
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Nope. I have called that promise broken before and i will do so again. they did not 'swing' anything in answers. they brought the power level closer by taking most of the power out of the threats. I had thought I would give them a chance, this was the set they promised would be different, I was hoping for answers that were as strong as the threats they printed during Kaladesh. Just Kaladesh, I wasn't looking for them to match BFZ nuttiness. they failed. the 'better answers' in this set are narrow and weak. I understand that few cards will be good enough for Modern, but I started really playing formats when M12 was around. I stand by that being a FANTASTIC set, this weaksauce set would contribute almost nothing in a Standard with that Core Set. People used to call those sets weak, but Doom Blade, Bolt, Titans....that set would stomp this entire Standard
I think a lot of people feel the same way. They did make some strictly better answers here and there, such as Abrade being strictly better than By Force most of the time, but when they can't even give a good Lightning Strike reprint or Heroes Downfall that starting to feel a bit suspect.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Nope. I have called that promise broken before and i will do so again. they did not 'swing' anything in answers. they brought the power level closer by taking most of the power out of the threats. I had thought I would give them a chance, this was the set they promised would be different, I was hoping for answers that were as strong as the threats they printed during Kaladesh. Just Kaladesh, I wasn't looking for them to match BFZ nuttiness. they failed. the 'better answers' in this set are narrow and weak. I understand that few cards will be good enough for Modern, but I started really playing formats when M12 was around. I stand by that being a FANTASTIC set, this weaksauce set would contribute almost nothing in a Standard with that Core Set. People used to call those sets weak, but Doom Blade, Bolt, Titans....that set would stomp this entire Standard
I think a lot of people feel the same way. They did make some strictly better answers here and there, such as Abrade being strictly better than By Force most of the time, but when they can't even give a good Lightning Strike reprint or Heroes Downfall that starting to feel a bit suspect.
well not 'strictly better' as they are not the same thing at different costs, that is Bolt vs Searing Spear, and some people take it way too seriously. but yeah, the idea that this is the pendulum swinging the other way is laughable. if the removal has to be compared to Amonkhet, or any set without at LEAST that awakening Downfall thing from BFZ, it's pretty pathetic.
On a related note, doesn't this hurt limited formats? I know they don't test for Modern, they obviously don't test for Standard either, but I thought limited was the primary focus these days, and in my (admittedly small sample) experience, a Limited format with decent removal at all rarities is generally good, a format without good removal sucks almost as bad as Standard has recently. Look at what the original MM had, all kinds of really premium removal and high power cards, and many people feel that it was one of the best draft setups of all time. food for thought.
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"""Premium Removal""" starting with Theros is one of the dumbest ideas wizards has come up with in recent years; it creates an enviroment where crappy spells at common and uncommon can get pushed through, while the useable removal is at rare or mythic. They constantly defend this behind cheap claims that it hurts limited. Fatal Push is the only one of note in this removal choked era.
Any removal is good removal in limited. You'll be casting 2R lightning bolts (Open Fire) and be happy about it. 4B for a kill spell? Please be in my pool! Limited is a different animal.
Frankly I'll be very disappointed if I can't run red considering how many kill spells they have across the 2 sets. It's all trash as far as constructed is concerned, but for limited? The red list of removal is long. Black too. If your pool gets shorted get ready to get run over.
Afflict and Exert together?? Other strats are going to get walked over at pre-release. They probably don't test for limited either, that's why there's a new department.
Considering when they said that the threat pendulum had swung too far. I am not sure they have had time to react yet. Curious to see the ixalan uncommons and commons. Even then I think it would be the set after Ixalan or the next. If we don't see anything by then, the answer is a definite no.
From what I remember they said starting this set is when we'd start to see removal and answers start to get better, and while board wipes are certainly good enough (although I'll always hate 5cmc wraths in Standard) it does seem like individual removal, especially Planeswalker removal, is lacking still, although I won't say how much.
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Looking over the set I honestly can't quite tell if they met their promise, but the removal is better than normal from a small set and from what we've had to work with. Yes, we got a few board wipes even if two have stipulations, the various Defeats (which may be playable depending on the format(s)), a couple of very decent counterspells, and other basic levels of removal with varying degree of quality.
To me it seems like they both did and didn't meet what they said, possibly because none of it is truly flashy, but it does look like a lot of it will get the job done.
What are your thoughts? Has WotC kept their promise with better removal and answers or do you feel that what's here is still not in keeping with what they said?
I totally forgot about that. There is oddly a lot of graveyard hate when there isn't much to hate for anymore. I understand they felt the need to make up for missing it for almost two years, but there does seem far too much.
Removal wise, Lethal Sting, Sandblast, Open Fire, Grind//Dust, Struggle//Survive, Puncturing Blow are all limited removal. I like Grind//Dust but it's quite borderline. Abrade is good but the loss of to face is vexing.
Hour of Revelation and Hour of Devastation seem fine. Hour of Glory is overcosted but probably will need to be used if gods play in standard significantly.
My answer is No. While the big sweepers will hit planeswalkers they didn't print any standard direct planeswalker kills that are instant. The Defeat cycle might work out for sideboard but it's so narrow it pains me to put them in the board unless there's a known deck to beat (which there will be).
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
-Chandra Nalaar
In terms of wipes at rare, yes.
Also, Collective Defiance + Archfiend of Ifnir seems pretty brutal.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
And here's the thing, with eternalize and the cards that we've seen from HOU its obvious that 4 toughness is the magic number in this limited format. So its not even like printing Lightning Strike in this set would have destroyed limited. Like they could even rareshift it up to uncommon, I wouldn't care. I don't know, it just feels sad that we're begging for a 2 cmc lightning bolt. It sucks that we literally have a 3 cmc version as our only option unless we want to be strictly sorcery speed. This is why I was actually excited to see Shock again after all this time in Aether Revolt.
I'd like Magma Jet back too
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Then again, Hour might be too soon to judge. I'll wait until I've seen more of Ixalan before I start going full angry grognard.
Open Fire is a disappointment and was probably inflexible to the better answers plan, but Countervailing Winds and Supreme Will are very nice counterspells that are almost certainly the result of this philosophy change.
The entire problem is all coming back to the format support system wizards originally tried to create that is now backfiring on them as they move to a newer development standard. What most people are expecting when it comes to answers are things that are competitive in modern as well as standard. People do want better answers in standard to try and have a more healthy and interactive meta, but in the long run the real driver that keeps the game going is the transition of cards into something people want to keep in their collection.
The trouble is they can't really print for modern anymore via standard. The cards people want in modern (going by past articles) are too strong for standard, don't fit the theme of the plane they are frequenting, or are cards they are unsure about and don't really want to reprint. This has lead them to printing two different sets of cards every year and at two completely different price points, with one set way high due to conflicting interests on the corporate level.
So, now it seems the company has its eyes on EDH / Commander as the new non-rotating format due to it's stability on the secondary market compared to modern, which spikes all over the place due to the way decks get constructed and how only the best of the best cards can make the cut, which usually are all mythics and rares these days.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I think there is a fair bit of hate in this block.
Spirits
I still don't think we've got powerful REMOVAL, however. We're still at five-mana wraths, and while expecting more Fatal Push is unreasonable, I think a stronger counter at two and better burn/exile would be beneficial. Hour of Glory and Open Fire are a bit insulting given the speed of the meta.
RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR
WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG
GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG
GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G)
RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW
UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B)
WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
The powerful hate is part of their newer design philosophy, push the new set and its mechanics HARD. So naturally they print hate for the previous set. Hate isn't good removal, it's situational hoser cards that you usually don't maindeck... unless the meta is broke as... well it has been. Fatal Push in a land where most the good stuff in Gideon or 5 CMC is weaksauce. Look at all the 5/5 creatures that dodge Grasping Darkness.
When we're talking about keeping a promise we mean removal that comes up to par with creatures like Rogue Refiner.
You get a body, energy, and a card. Even if I Magma Spray on your end step you still got energy and a card and I lost a card.
If they're not going to stop stupid OP creature prints, then removal needs to look like;
'Destroy target creature, gain life equal to its toughness, scry 1'
'Counter target spell, gain life equal to its CMC, scry 1'
'Exile target creature, scry 2'
You get the picture. Instead we get Hour of Glory. They give us removal to poop on!
I think a lot of people feel the same way. They did make some strictly better answers here and there, such as Abrade being strictly better than By Force most of the time, but when they can't even give a good Lightning Strike reprint or Heroes Downfall that starting to feel a bit suspect.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
well not 'strictly better' as they are not the same thing at different costs, that is Bolt vs Searing Spear, and some people take it way too seriously. but yeah, the idea that this is the pendulum swinging the other way is laughable. if the removal has to be compared to Amonkhet, or any set without at LEAST that awakening Downfall thing from BFZ, it's pretty pathetic.
On a related note, doesn't this hurt limited formats? I know they don't test for Modern, they obviously don't test for Standard either, but I thought limited was the primary focus these days, and in my (admittedly small sample) experience, a Limited format with decent removal at all rarities is generally good, a format without good removal sucks almost as bad as Standard has recently. Look at what the original MM had, all kinds of really premium removal and high power cards, and many people feel that it was one of the best draft setups of all time. food for thought.
Frankly I'll be very disappointed if I can't run red considering how many kill spells they have across the 2 sets. It's all trash as far as constructed is concerned, but for limited? The red list of removal is long. Black too. If your pool gets shorted get ready to get run over.
Afflict and Exert together?? Other strats are going to get walked over at pre-release. They probably don't test for limited either, that's why there's a new department.
From what I remember they said starting this set is when we'd start to see removal and answers start to get better, and while board wipes are certainly good enough (although I'll always hate 5cmc wraths in Standard) it does seem like individual removal, especially Planeswalker removal, is lacking still, although I won't say how much.